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Sea Level Change, Since 1970...

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Marshman. I thank you for your kind invitation to explore the reaches above Potter Heigham bridge, most kind.

Might I just mention that my moorings are on Hickling broad. My boat is 9' 6" in the beam, and needs 6' 3 for me to take it under the bridge. The pilots will do it at anything more than 6'. The number of times I have been unable to go under is slowly increasing. That is the basis of my opinion that something needs to be done to get the clearances back to how they were before.

I accept that this might be impossible, if the problem is as a result of climate change. I accept that it may be difficult or perhaps impossible if the problem has been caused by flood alleviation works. BUT, If the problem is as a result of a lack of maintenance then I do not accept that this should continue.

The information BatraBill posted was perhaps loaded with … shall we say "spin" BESL has answered the question, but only in respect of flooding, and in fairness I would totally agree that dredging the lower Bure will have only negligible effect on flooding on the Thurne.   

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MM - I am aware of where you moor, and without wishing to commit yourself further, I am sure you  will agree with me about the very special merits of the area, and perhaps also agree that if the area were opened up, it may impact the special uniqueness that it has. The comment on joining me to view it, was at best tongue in cheek,, and not directed at you personally! Although I would not mind the latter either I hasten to add!

Equally I am not sure that these areas do exist in their entirety, or at least to the same degree unless perhaps managed by "outside" bodies, in other parts of the Broads - especially outside the New Inn. But earlier this year, I did have the pleasure of seeing, whilst eating my lunch tied to a tree in Meadow Dyke, the following within about 30 minutes - otter, bittern, kingfisher, marsh harrier, norfolk hawker, swallowtail, and the cranes.  Whilst I suspect it could happen on the Ant, it clearly does not happen very often given the posts addressed to JP about the lack of wildlife! ( To be fair, I suspect it does not happen in Meadow Dyke all of the time! )

The real point I was trying to make is why risk the danger of losing anything from that area - I would like something special to show my grandchildren and that list does not include a long procession of Clives finest , nose to tail down the Ant! I am a great believer in leaving some space for nature in this crowded world we live in.

 

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1 hour ago, marshman said:

Equally I am not sure that these areas do exist in their entirety, or at least to the same degree unless perhaps managed by "outside" bodies, in other parts of the Broads - especially outside the New Inn.

I wonder what you mean by outside bodies - unless you are referring to the owners of most of the Hickling area, these days?

My remark about the New Inn was of course rhetorical, just as your remarks often are. Anyway, the pub would not have been open at that time in the morning! I have, however, seen a bittern fly over Surlingham Ferry in the dawn. I have also heard them booming on Wroxham Broad, a very long time ago when they were considered almost extinct on the Broads. Still nowhere near Hickling!

I fear that what you are trying to suggest is exclusionist and would also remind you of how much tourist revenue that "long procession of Clive's finest" is contributing to the Broads as a whole.

They have the right to navigate and the RSPB (at least not yet) do not have the right to stop them.

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1 hour ago, marshman said:

 

The real point I was trying to make is why risk the danger of losing anything from that area - I would like something special to show my grandchildren and that list does not include a long procession of Clives finest , nose to tail down the Ant! I am a great believer in leaving some space for nature in this crowded world we live in.

 

While I can appreciate what you are saying the problem there is that whatever affects the water levels at Potter also affects the water levels on the rest of the Bure network, you cannot treat the upper Thurne in isolation.

Fred

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I've read a few times on this forum the 'anti RSPB/NWT' comments regarding navigation. I did once ask, where is the justification for this and didn't get an answer. I'm a member of both organisations and have been for many years. I recieve newsletters/magazines etc. from both, but have never read anything which remotely mentions the closure of any navigation on the Norfolk Broads... I'm quite prepared to accept that it is possible I may have missed such an article or anouncement, so if anyone can point me in the right direction, then please do...

From my point of view, the Norfolk Wildlife Trust, Suffolk Wildlife Trust and R.S.P.B. have done nothing but good, where they manage areas of the Norfolk & Suffolk Broads. Clearing vegetation to prevent marshland reverting to carr woodland and preventing grazing marshes from being drained and going under the plough, in many places. I'm quite prepared to listen, if anyone has evidence of mis-management, that any of these organisations has done to the area. Though I believe the silence will be deafening...

Common Cranes over Meadow Dyke.

35.JPG

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Ask them both, as a member why they have always been opposed and have blocked the deposition of dredging spoil on the banks of Hickling Broad, a practice which was always traditionaly carried out.

Ask anyone who has regularly sailed on Hickling broad for some time how conditions have changed regarding depth, especially off the main chanel.

Ask the HBYC how their membership has changed, and why .

Then you mabe, just maybe will have some idea ....

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Not directly associated with the navigation, but they shoot foxes at Sutton Fen. 

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Poppy... I think you may be getting confused with 'Natural England' which I believe is a government agency. Only they give the permission for dredging and say where the spoil from Hickling Broad has to go. The RSPB has no management in the Upper Thurne and Norfolk Wildlife Trust who recently purchased a large area around Hickling Broad and also Manages Martham/Somerton Broad, but has little or no say in the dredging or spoil deposition of the Upper Thurne broads.

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14 minutes ago, Paladin said:

Not directly associated with the navigation, but they shoot foxes at Sutton Fen. 

Foxes have also been shot on 'Strumpshaw Fen' too, although the fen is managed by the RSPB, it is owned by the Strumpshaw Hall Estate, the surrounding area is run as 'a shoot' by the Hall Estate and they reserve the right to control the fox population, even on the parts of the estate managed by the RSPB. Perhaps a similar situation exists at Sutton & Fen, which I believe is A closed reserve, with only very limited access to the public.

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9 minutes ago, kingfisher666 said:

Poppy... I think you may be getting confused with 'Natural England' which I believe is a government agency.

No. The NWT certainly and the RSPB ( I think ) have owned the bankside of Hickling Broad for many years. The issue of the depositing of spoil is not a new one!

 

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2 minutes ago, Poppy said:

No. The NWT certainly and the RSPB ( I think ) have owned the bankside of Hickling Broad for many years. The issue of the depositing of spoil is not a new one!

 

The NWT yes, but I know the RSPB have no reserves on the upper Thurne. The NWT, though they now own large areas surrounding Hickling, which was previously owned by the Buxton Estate, have no say whatsoever on the dredging of Hickling Broad. As I said previously, only 'Natural England' a government agency, can give permission regarding the dredging and deposition of spoil on Hickling Broad.

 

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15 minutes ago, kingfisher666 said:

The NWT yes, but I know the RSPB have no reserves on the upper Thurne. The NWT, though they now own large areas surrounding Hickling, which was previously owned by the Buxton Estate, have no say whatsoever on the dredging of Hickling Broad. As I said previously, only 'Natural England' a government agency, can give permission regarding the dredging and deposition of spoil on Hickling Broad.

 

As riparian owners they certainly do have a say, along with the 'ear' of many in the BA, who in turn are close to and funded by ( in part ) by the EA !

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11 minutes ago, Poppy said:

As riparian owners they certainly do have a say, along with the 'ear' of many in the BA, who in turn are close to and funded by ( in part ) by the EA !

Well, according to John Blackburn the warden at NWT Hickling Broad, when they did a lot of reworking of the drainage at the Hickling Broad reserve in 2013/14, everything they did had to be passed by the B.A., but 'Natural England' have the final say. Apparently, all spoil from Hickling Broad dredging has to be used in the re-creation of islands or banks, which previously existed on Hickling Broad, but had washed away over time. He's a very approachable man, if you're local, you should have a chat with him. He's very knowledgeable and would certainly be able to answer your questions re: Hickling/dredging etc. much better than I ever could.

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I have just had a thought.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, kingfisher666 said:

and they reserve the right to control the fox population, even on the parts of the estate managed by the RSPB.

So they are doing you a favour then.

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46 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Now that's an idea :default_biggrin:

Fred

Well you see I was thinking......but I stopped.......because I don't want to cause trouble......

But here we go!!!!!!..... Is there anywhere, Town, Country, National Park, Island, Anywhere..else in the UK....where outsiders, just because they spend a couple of bob on a mooring and have a pint in a pub or hire a boat have the arrogance to tell the populace of Norfolk in general and The Broads in particular the way the area should be run, be it roads, rivers or development. Or maybe it is an endemic failing in single interest discussion groups.

Anyway it was just a thought and I am not prepared to get into a discussion.

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25 minutes ago, ChrisB said:

Well you see I was thinking......but I stopped.......because I don't want to cause trouble......

But here we go!!!!!!..... Is there anywhere, Town, Country, National Park, Island, Anywhere..else in the UK....where outsiders, just because they spend a couple of bob on a mooring and have a pint in a pub or hire a boat have the arrogance to tell the populace of Norfolk in general and The Broads in particular the way the area should be run, be it roads, rivers or development. Or maybe it is an endemic failing in single interest discussion groups.

Anyway it was just a thought and I am not prepared to get into a discussion.

I am not aware of anyone telling the populace of anywhere how to run things, yes we do try to hold those responsible for the administration to account as is the case with any form of administrative body.

With regard to the Broads in particular not only do many on here live in the area or spend a considerable part of the year there the boating community either owners or hirers are the single biggest contributors to the authorities finances as well as providing the basis for a large part of the employment opportunities in the area, so I think we are well entitled to express an opinion and I would not call that arrogance.

Fred

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But equally could not other interested parties have a right for, let us say  quiet areas above the NTLs  defined as :

The entrance to Barton in the south

Top of Candle Dyke

Entrance to Martham Broad

Last entrance to Wroxham Broad going up stream.

I am purely playing Devils Advocate, looking at tourism in Norfolk as a whole boating is actually a long way off being the major player.

I do share Marshmans view that there is a danger that The Broads could become too commercial and change for future generations if one lobby has it's way over the others.

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I would say that the Broads is now a great deal less commercial than it used to be in the 50s and 60s, so there is a consequent lack of revenue to spend on its maintenance.

I also agree that this maintenance must not just be for navigation. It also includes the management of reedbeds to prevent them growing into Carr, which is why we now have far too many mature trees around the banks. But then the reedbeds used to be commercial as well, as they were sold for what was known as the best quality thatch in the World. But they are not commercial any more, and we can see the difference!

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Precisely Vaughan, which is why I have always thought having two pots of money is not sensible. If a job needs to be done, does it really matter if it comes from the left or right pocket.

Expenditure must eventually be reported to the Comptroller & Auditor General even if that is via a third party Accountancy Practice.

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6 hours ago, ChrisB said:

But equally could not other interested parties have a right for, let us say  quiet areas above the NTLs  defined as :

The entrance to Barton in the south

Top of Candle Dyke

Entrance to Martham Broad

Last entrance to Wroxham Broad going up stream.

I am purely playing Devils Advocate, looking at tourism in Norfolk as a whole boating is actually a long way off being the major player.

I do share Marshmans view that there is a danger that The Broads could become too commercial and change for future generations if one lobby has it's way over the others.

Sorry but I am at a bit of a loss here,  to the best of my knowledge this discussion and most forum discussions in general are in reference to the area within the control of the Broads Authority, tourism in Norfolk is a totally different animal and outside of the BA remit, within the BA area boats offer the majority of accommodation for visitors be they privately owned or hirers with most of the rest used by anglers some of whom also hire boats.

Looking at your suggested list there is a historical right to navigation and a legal requirement on the BA to maintain it, I agree there is more to the broads than just boating but given how little land access there is apart from populated areas how would you access these areas other than by water.

Fred

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I was picking up on Marshmans comment re nose to tail hire boats.

By quiet read paddle, oar and sail. Impossible with the largest fleet based at Stalham but perhaps power could be restricted to main channels and the rest accessed by quiet vessels. 

With the vast amount of development planned for the area, private boat ownership is going to increase and I don't see how you can keep taking more and more boats onto a finite waterway without some imaginative planning.

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now here is a novel thought, how about going old school, and all of us carrying something like one of these, then just scoop and dump on the side as it was always done.

IMG_0457.JPG

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12 minutes ago, ChrisB said:

I was picking up on Marshmans comment re nose to tail hire boats.

By quiet read paddle, oar and sail. Impossible with the largest fleet based at Stalham but perhaps power could be restricted to main channels and the rest accessed by quiet vessels. 

With the vast amount of development planned for the area, private boat ownership is going to increase and I don't see how you can keep taking more and more boats onto a finite waterway without some imaginative planning.

The days of nose to tail hire boats are long gone even in peak periods and most unlikely to return, the increase in private ownership will be limited by the amount of available moorings with little scope for further increase of these added to the fact a lot of private boats get little used and even less use out on the rivers.

The right to navigation is not specific to any class of boat and it would be very dangerous to try changing that, the only restriction is the one that is imposed by the size and design of boat in regard to bridges and smaller channels.

Fred

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