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Sea Level Change, Since 1970...

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20 hours ago, ChrisB said:

Anyway it was just a thought and I am not prepared to get into a discussion.

?

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53 minutes ago, Paul said:

?

Sometimes it is interesting to kick off an idea and see what other folk think.

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I agree with your point to a certain extent Chris, I have no vested interest in planning for example, so whether I like something or not, it's nowt to do with me.

I do however have a vested interest in the navigation. I own a boat and I pay my tolls. I think it reasonable that I should voice my opinions here on that issue.

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On 08/12/2018 at 16:57, kingfisher666 said:

Well, according to John Blackburn the warden at NWT Hickling Broad, when they did a lot of reworking of the drainage at the Hickling Broad reserve in 2013/14, everything they did had to be passed by the B.A., but 'Natural England' have the final say. Apparently, all spoil from Hickling Broad dredging has to be used in the re-creation of islands or banks, which previously existed on Hickling Broad, but had washed away over time. He's a very approachable man, if you're local, you should have a chat with him. He's very knowledgeable and would certainly be able to answer your questions re: Hickling/dredging etc. much better than I ever could.

But still nothing fron anyone indpendent of the NWT/RSPB.

Bit like the religious using the Bible to prove the truth ..... of the Bible.

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22 minutes ago, Poppy said:

But still nothing fron anyone indpendent of the NWT/RSPB.

Bit like the religious using the Bible to prove the truth ..... of the Bible.

I don't really know what more I can say, I've tried to answer your comments as best I can. Though I'm a member of both NWT & RSPB, I don't speak for them, but only comment from what I believe to be fact.

Regarding your second comment, re: the Bible. I'm an atheist, so certainly won't disagree with you there... :12_slight_smile:

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Poppy - with respect thats a bit harsh!! Whilst you would probably expect an employee to support their employer, you would not expect him to deliberately lie! Indeed I think he is pretty close to the truth.

Firstly as Kingfisher has said, the RSPB have no land adjacent to Hickling so I just cannot see that they should be involved in discussions concerning the area at all  - their nearest land is at Sutton Fen.

And for what its worth, Natural England DO have the final say on dredging, and indeed weed cutting. During last summer they even had control over the trial weed cutting that took place at various stages of growth and at various locations.

He is not quite right about the disposal of dredging material, as last winter, a trial did take place to pump material ashore in the Hill Common area . I am not sure it was a great success BUT this has one major problem - you have to reach agreement with the farmer concerned and for what its worth, that is not necessarily a given and neither is it a cheap option as the spoil has to be contained within a geotextile enclosure. Farmers generally are not too keen on this method at all - it was trialled a few years ago adjacent to Upton Broad proving somewhat laborious.

And one thing you will never get is permission to just "dump" dredging onto marshes or reedbed - you will recall the owner at Wayford who tried that and subsequently had to remove it. Indeed Hickling landscape itself has suffered from the disposal of previous dredging episodes - you will be aware as you enter White Slea from Heigham Sound of the stand of silver birch which sticks out like a sore thumb. It all grew up on the site of previous dredgings - there is nothing like nice clean mud to welcome those silver birch seeds to grow ,and like alder, should be treated as weeds!!!

And to top it all, Hickling suffers as you well know, from a propensity to have prymnesium outbreaks, and this too hinders dredging with that only being permitted when the water temperature falls below a certain level. Thats an EA issue as well as a Natural England one!

Would then things be as easy as you suggest - however the channel is again being dredged further this year and the dredgings being deposited within an area around Churchills Bay . As John Blackburn has said, to strengthen the shoreline and/or to reestablish islands - so he is right on that one as well!

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17 minutes ago, marshman said:

Poppy - with respect thats a bit harsh!! Whilst you would probably expect an employee to support their employer, you would not expect him to deliberately lie! Indeed I think he is pretty close to the truth.

Firstly as Kingfisher has said, the RSPB have no land adjacent to Hickling so I just cannot see that they should be involved in discussions concerning the area at all  - their nearest land is at Sutton Fen.

And for what its worth, Natural England DO have the final say on dredging, and indeed weed cutting. During last summer they even had control over the trial weed cutting that took place at various stages of growth and at various locations.

He is not quite right about the disposal of dredging material, as last winter, a trial did take place to pump material ashore in the Hill Common area . I am not sure it was a great success BUT this has one major problem - you have to reach agreement with the farmer concerned and for what its worth, that is not necessarily a given and neither is it a cheap option as the spoil has to be contained within a geotextile enclosure. Farmers generally are not too keen on this method at all - it was trialled a few years ago adjacent to Upton Broad proving somewhat laborious.

And one thing you will never get is permission to just "dump" dredging onto marshes or reedbed - you will recall the owner at Wayford who tried that and subsequently had to remove it. Indeed Hickling landscape itself has suffered from the disposal of previous dredging episodes - you will be aware as you enter White Slea from Heigham Sound of the stand of silver birch which sticks out like a sore thumb. It all grew up on the site of previous dredgings - there is nothing like nice clean mud to welcome those silver birch seeds to grow ,and like alder, should be treated as weeds!!!

And to top it all, Hickling suffers as you well know, from a propensity to have prymnesium outbreaks, and this too hinders dredging with that only being permitted when the water temperature falls below a certain level. Thats an EA issue as well as a Natural England one!

Would then things be as easy as you suggest - however the channel is again being dredged further this year and the dredgings being deposited within an area around Churchills Bay . As John Blackburn has said, to strengthen the shoreline and/or to reestablish islands - so he is right on that one as well!

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/waste-exemptions-disposing-of-waste

The BA and the EA have consistently said 'you can't do that', citing in many cases, EU 'Law', whilst conveniently ignoring this exemption.

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1 hour ago, Poppy said:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/waste-exemptions-disposing-of-waste

The BA and the EA have consistently said 'you can't do that', citing in many cases, EU 'Law', whilst conveniently ignoring this exemption.

The BA are very aware of this exemption. Take a look at what it says about halfway down page 10 of this document

I'm not sure they ignore it though, there are many other constraints e.g. amount that can be dredged, method of depositing, landowner agreement etc.

 

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On 08/12/2018 at 16:01, kingfisher666 said:

Foxes have also been shot on 'Strumpshaw Fen' too, although the fen is managed by the RSPB, it is owned by the Strumpshaw Hall Estate, the surrounding area is run as 'a shoot' by the Hall Estate and they reserve the right to control the fox population, even on the parts of the estate managed by the RSPB. Perhaps a similar situation exists at Sutton & Fen, which I believe is A closed reserve, with only very limited access to the public.

Sutton Fen is owned by the RSPB, having been bought, from the farmer who owned it, for £1.5 million.

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20 minutes ago, Paladin said:

Sutton Fen is owned by the RSPB, having been bought, from the farmer who owned it, for £1.5 million.

£1.5 million, for what is basically unproductive fen, nice work if you can get it... :12_slight_smile:

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45 minutes ago, Paladin said:

The BA are very aware of this exemption. Take a look at what it says about halfway down page 10 of this document

I'm not sure they ignore it though, there are many other constraints e.g. amount that can be dredged, method of depositing, landowner agreement etc.

 

Interesting document. Thanks for posting. An exercise in establishing why not to do something you didn't want to do in the first place. :default_biggrin: 

I wonder how you convert Tons into cubic metres - or vise versa ?  :default_huh:

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If it were water 1000 litres = 1 cubic metre = 1 Tonne

So how much heavier than water is wet mud? I don't know but would guess it has an SG of approx 1.5.

So my guess is 1 cubic metre of wet mud is around 1.5 tonne

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but the first document (waste exemptions) posted quoted a later date and 50 cu m per linear metre of bank rather than the out of date 2007 reference in the BA document that only allowed 20 tonnes per linear metre (thats still a lot of spoil per km of river bank)

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just imagining sailing down river between two high banks of spoil now....

well at least i wont run aground on the corners.

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Kingfisher - believe me, Sutton Fen is supposedly very special! Almost no one is allowed on large swathes of it and then only rarely! I know very little about birds and less about plants and buggy things, but nonetheless they are all part of the food chain and like it or not , important. The £1.5 m did include the farm as well which presumably is now let to provide an income, and ensuring that it is managed for the benefit of the Reserve.

When the land was first  purchased there was high hopes that it would be used to build a visitor centre and provide access to boardwalks etc to the parts of the fen, but all that fell through for one reason or another - it may have been issues about access.

For what its worth, together with the Butterfly Trusts adjacent Catfield Fen, they are internationally recognised as exceptionally important freshwater fens!!

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25 minutes ago, marshman said:

Kingfisher - believe me, Sutton Fen is supposedly very special! Almost no one is allowed on large swathes of it and then only rarely! I know very little about birds and less about plants and buggy things, but nonetheless they are all part of the food chain and like it or not , important. The £1.5 m did include the farm as well which presumably is now let to provide an income, and ensuring that it is managed for the benefit of the Reserve.

When the land was first  purchased there was high hopes that it would be used to build a visitor centre and provide access to boardwalks etc to the parts of the fen, but all that fell through for one reason or another - it may have been issues about access.

For what its worth, together with the Butterfly Trusts adjacent Catfield Fen, they are internationally recognised as exceptionally important freshwater fens!!

My comment regarding 'Sutton Fen' was a little 'tongue in cheek', as the sale price (I didn't realise the purchase price was for the whole farm) seemed a lot for what was unproductive fen, from a farming point of view.

I do however, realise how important both Sutton & Catfield Fens are, both from a conservation & scientific viewpoint, as they are both pristine examples of untouched fenland, which is why the area has extremely limited public access.

 

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Are these pristine and untouched fenland areas the bits that look to have lots of straight lined drainage ditches on the os map?

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59 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

Are these pristine and untouched fenland areas the bits that look to have lots of straight lined drainage ditches on the os map?

Regarding RSPB Sutton Fen, I don't think there are "lots of straight lined drainage ditches" that I can see. As I'm sure you know, all fen requires scrub clearance to prevent woodland carr encroachment, the clearing of drains and fen ponds is also neccesary to prevent their complete silting up.

Catfield Fen, which has been owned by the 'Butterfly Conservation' since 1992 is a mix of reedbeds, fen and carr woodland and is managed in conjunction with the RSPB. This management includes traditional reed & sedge cutting, scrub clearance and dyke and pond clearing.

All fen and reedbeds requires management, if not it would cease to be fen and would revert over time through carr and eventually become woodland.

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My OS map shows some dykes but not many and none in Sutton Marsh!! It does however say Big Bog and Little Bog which I understand is pretty apt!

That point about constant maintenance has been well made by Vaughan in an earlier post - sadly that is something the BA now struggle to do as effectively as it has been able to do in the past.  It will be a shame to see the marshland gradually get overrun again which I fear could happen although both the NWT and the RSPB do take it all very seriously.

Vaughan also mentions Norfolk Reed and he is correct in all the things he says - as is often the case! But more marsh needs to be opened up and used but it is an extraordinary hard life for a poor return, made harder when the summer season brings with it the job of cutting sedge! Now that is hard and again not very rewarding - not a job youngsters want to do and because of the nature of most marshes, difficult to mechanise successfully to any degree.

 

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A lot of reed comes from The Danube Delta, most of which lies in Romania. It is the second biggest in Europe after the Volga but is considered to be the most pristine in Europe and one of the most in the World

For comparison The Broads cover some 350 square Kilometres the Danube Delta is in excess of 4000 square Kilometres.

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Just spotted this articlein BBC science news. The cause appears to be warmed water rising from the ocean depths.

 

Screenshot_20181211-062454.thumb.png.e675d95424498c0b6cfe538c057b2056.pngScreenshot_20181211-062547.thumb.png.29b0391de6d15c81a506d4ada0f3e913.png

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Thanks for that, Chris and Marshman.

I happen to know a little about reed as I worked for 15 years in the Petit Camargue, which is made up of the alluvial silt of the Rhone Delta. It is land reclaimed by draining and pumping in exactly the same way as the Broads, so that the water table can be maintained at different levels, for the growing of reed as well as Camargue rice. 

There are many square miles of managed reed beds which are sold for thatching in Belgium. The fields are harvested in rotation every 2 or 3 years so there is always loads of space for all the abundant wildlife. The bittern are wandering around in there like free range hens!

So it is a whole countryside of reclaimed, managed land which is entirely man-made and which would simply be a swampy jungle if it were not. We would do well to remember that on the Broads. We must not leave it to become too "natural" or it simply won't be there any more.

By the way, I don't suppose you would see old drainage dykes on a map of Sutton Fen as that area used to be a broad which has grown over into fen and Carr. Unlike land which has been drained for grazing meadow, such as around Thurne and St Benets.

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The Camargue is trully a magical place, hard to take in that such wilderness is in France.

Unfortunately the last time we visited it was too late in the year, early September and even though we had brought fine Scottish Midge nets to wear those huge Camague Mozzies were testing to say the least.

They were driving the horses and bulls absolutely frantic.

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