Syndicates, Thoughts

[SwanR]

17 minutes ago, NorfolkNog said:

That's what I would go for if I could raise the capital. It would be people you would have to know and trust and be committed. Couple of school teachers would be ideal for me or people who hate the cold! 

That's you and me sorted for the winter shares then Howard. Now we just need to persuade Clive Richardson to sell us Swan Reflection. 

[NorfolkNog]

Lovely thought Jean 

Everyone has their price of course but personally I'd get Paul to build us a new one 

It would be our ideal, cosy, compact but not too small. Perfect for winter particularly with Swancraft heating and battery systems. Problem is you would be looking 100k plus but as Griff says with a small group it could be achievable. That or the lottery......

[jimbob88]

9 hours ago, BroadAmbition said:

What about the private sort of syndicate?  A small group of like minded individuals, purchase, maintain and run the boat between you.

We have a four man syndicate running 'B.A' (With a fifth share option).  It has worked for us since 2002

Griff

That's the ideal scenario 

[ranworthbreeze]

Hello Jimbob88,

Have a look on www.boatshare.co.uk website under the personal adverts, there are people asking for other people to start a syndicate from scratch.

I will get back to you with the information you asked for when I get some time.

Regards

Alan

[Matt]

I have always held the view that we as a syndicate we should buy back shares for Thunder when an owner is keen to sell and the price reflects that. We could turn reduce the number of owners over time.

However, not much appetite at the moment and one barrier is the management fee.


Sent from my iPhone using Norfolk Broads Network

[NorfolkNog]

The more I think about it, the smaller group seems the way to go. I believe Griff's 'group' includes family members and long standing friends. Even if four or 5 folk got together, self managed running costs wouldn't be excessive surely. I reckon that I spend about 2.5k annually for the equivalent of around 4 weeks hire. That would be 10 - 12k which would surely go a long way to covering operational costs. Plus a smaller group would have the potential to be more flexible and even come to an arrangement where members could be guaranteed 'cherished' holiday times or school holidays for example. 

I can think of one Broads loving couple who I could happily share with but have the advantage of knowing them well!!

[jimbob88]

34 minutes ago, NorfolkNog said:

The more I think about it, the smaller group seems the way to go. I believe Griff's 'group' includes family members and long standing friends. Even if four or 5 folk got together, self managed running costs wouldn't be excessive surely. I reckon that I spend about 2.5k annually for the equivalent of around 4 weeks hire. That would be 10 - 12k which would surely go a long way to covering operational costs. Plus a smaller group would have the potential to be more flexible and even come to an arrangement where members could be guaranteed 'cherished' holiday times or school holidays for example. 

I can think of one Broads loving couple who I could happily share with but have the advantage of knowing them well!!

I agree with you on this. 

 

When I've looked into the running costs of a lowliner it's worked out at about 3 to 4k a year and that was if it was moored at Swan craft. Between 5 people that still works out less than 1k a year so cheaper than what I pay at the moment. Less people should surely mean things can be organised a lot easier and greater choice of weeks  available. Granted at winter maintenance costs will need to be included but I think a lot of things could be planned ahead with a fund in place so not to feel it too much. 

[ranworthbreeze]

4 hours ago, jimbob88 said:

I agree with you on this. 

 

When I've looked into the running costs of a lowliner it's worked out at about 3 to 4k a year and that was if it was moored at Swan craft. Between 5 people that still works out less than 1k a year so cheaper than what I pay at the moment. Less people should surely mean things can be organised a lot easier and greater choice of weeks  available. Granted at winter maintenance costs will need to be included but I think a lot of things could be planned ahead with a fund in place so not to feel it too much. 

Hello Jimbob88,

You may well find that your perceived running costs might be on the low side. you have to take into account, mooring costs, river toll, insurance, breakdown insurance, servicing costs, renewals and replacement costs.

To give you an idea our operating costs for 2018 were just under £20,000 because of upholstery and bow thruster renewal  costs which added over £7,000 to our normal budget.

Regards

Alan

[jimbob88]

I've attached a document I made of all the costs I could think of to running a lowliner. Under no illusion that having a boat whether on your own or as part of a small or large syndicate can be expensive at times but a 20k w/m budget isn't the norm either. Like I said for most things you can plan ahead while always having a reserve for disasters. 

[jimbob88]

Kind of wish I'd changed the header from project lowliner 😖

[NorfolkNog]

I think you might need to add routine servicing, gas, possible costs arising from a break down call out and maybe a repair fund for major renewals which may occur in the future. The basic costs look very similar to Paul's calculation when I asked him a while back. 

[Mark]

22 minutes ago, jimbob88 said:

I've attached a document I made of all the costs I could think of to running a lowliner. Under no illusion that having a boat whether on your own or as part of a small or large syndicate can be expensive at times but a 20k w/m budget isn't the norm either. Like I said for most things you can plan ahead while always having a reserve for disasters. 

 

22 minutes ago, jimbob88 said:

I've attached a document I made of all the costs I could think of to running a lowliner. Under no illusion that having a boat whether on your own or as part of a small or large syndicate can be expensive at times but a 20k w/m budget isn't the norm either. Like I said for most things you can plan ahead while always having a reserve for disasters. 

James, that 3.1K  is before you allow for weekly  turnarounds  and servicing,  we will pay around   2K on  Thunder per annum  for that  (and that excludes things like the new battery charger, labour , heating wiring etc)  so unless you are allowing for the Syndicate to be local owners doing this (and also cleaning)    themselves then you would  need to consider it as you would nt  want to arrive and not be able to go. Also  a basic average WM without upgrades  etc has normally come in at  between £400 and £500 per owner over 12.5 shares, so  taking a mid point £450  x 12.5 = £5,625  would be  £1,125 per owner  instead if only 5.  Then with a AF38 lowliner  built in the 90,s  if you could purchase for say 40K  thats 8K per share to start before any  upgrades that may be required. Lastly if a major upgrade is required and 1 owner defaults then you have a bigger  issue. That's not to say its a bad idea,  just that  I would  see the trade off as one of accepting that  overall  there is likely to be more cost due to fewer owners putting in  but  the return is that you have  more freedom to do the upgrades (if like minded people)  and also  more weeks  out if one has the free  time other than at w/.ends due to work  

 

 

[jimbob88]

Sorry I should have stated that was just the basic costs to have a boat floating in the water. 

[jimbob88]

Would be interesting to know Griff as you have the only sort of private syndicate boat I know of whether what I stated for the expenses is anywhere near what it costs yourselves to run the boat. Obviously I didn't put down the costs of winter maintenance or things like gas bottles and valets. 

[Matt]

Although with Thunder she is probably out 40 weeks a year so probably has higher costs as a result but spread between 12.5 owners.

Doing work yourselves is okay if you have the skills and expertise amongst the owners but don’t forget those owners can sell up and move on.

My suggestion would be that if 3 or 4 of you want to buy Into a Syndicate and take it down the self managed route then all buy into the same syndicate and then vote together accordingly. I imagine most syndicates are probably around the 60/40 for self managed so probably quite easy to swing the vote.


Sent from my iPhone using Norfolk Broads Network

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

2 hours ago, Mark said:

 

James, that 3.1K  is before you allow for weekly  turnarounds  and servicing,  we will pay around   2K on  Thunder per annum  for that  (and that excludes things like the new battery charger, labour , heating wiring etc)  so unless you are allowing for the Syndicate to be local owners doing this (and also cleaning)    themselves then you would  need to consider it as you would nt  want to arrive and not be able to go. Also  a basic average WM without upgrades  etc has normally come in at  between £400 and £500 per owner over 12.5 shares, so  taking a mid point £450  x 12.5 = £5,625  would be  £1,125 per owner  instead if only 5.  Then with a AF38 lowliner  built in the 90,s  if you could purchase for say 40K  thats 8K per share to start before any  upgrades that may be required. Lastly if a major upgrade is required and 1 owner defaults then you have a bigger  issue. That's not to say its a bad idea,  just that  I would  see the trade off as one of accepting that  overall  there is likely to be more cost due to fewer owners putting in  but  the return is that you have  more freedom to do the upgrades (if like minded people)  and also  more weeks  out if one has the free  time other than at w/.ends due to work  

 

 

Hi Mark,

£40k for a lowliner is very cheap. If you wanted a decent one, you should be looking for a boat with a fully recon engine at least. preferably new, the same goes for the gear box, central heating system, and all major mechanical and electrical systems etc. The reason being that systems that are around 20 years old have a habbit for breaking down, and will cost you dear in unscheduled maintainance or replacement, so any boat you buy for syndicate use would realistically need to be FULLY reconditioned in all aspects, and you won`t get a fully reconditioned lowliner for anywhere near £40k.  Thunder is a great example. When she was taken out of hire, she was fully refurbished by Brooms (or so i believe, but stand to be corrected?) and shares were initially sold for around £8,000 each. However, Now she`s had around 6+ years of syndicate use, the shares are now around £6,500.  When shares were up around the £8,000 mark, that would equate to a value of £100,000,  however, now the share prices are down to around £6,500, that puts the value down to around £80,000. That said, i don`t mean any offence against the Thunder syndicate I`ve just used that as an example of how age and use etc can drive down values. 

 

[jimbob88]

Pleased I started this thread there's been some interesting replies. 

Kris cruiser s put one of their lowliners up for 39k a few years back and I was always of the mind a ex hire boat from a reputable yard would be a good starting point knowing it's been regularly services and maintenaned every season. If it's not worth syndicating a used boat why would you ever buy a boat on your own that hasn't had the works done to it unless you're after a project. 

 

 

[Mark]

36 minutes ago, SPEEDTRIPLE said:

Hi Mark,

£40k for a lowliner is very cheap. If you wanted a decent one, you should be looking for a boat with a fully recon engine at least. preferably new, the same goes for the gear box, central heating system, and all major mechanical and electrical systems etc. The reason being that systems that are around 20 years old have a habbit for breaking down, and will cost you dear in unscheduled maintainance or replacement, so any boat you buy for syndicate use would realistically need to be FULLY reconditioned in all aspects, and you won`t get a fully reconditioned lowliner for anywhere near £40k.  Thunder is a great example. When she was taken out of hire, she was fully refurbished by Brooms (or so i believe, but stand to be corrected?) and shares were initially sold for around £8,000 each. However, Now she`s had around 6+ years of syndicate use, the shares are now around £6,500.  When shares were up around the £8,000 mark, that would equate to a value of £100,000,  however, now the share prices are down to around £6,500, that puts the value down to around £80,000. That said, i don`t mean any offence against the Thunder syndicate I`ve just used that as an example of how age and use etc can drive down values. 

 

Yes fully agree and no offence  taken, shares have gone for even lower in last years or two .  I was using the e.g. of how even a low priced low liner would not necc equate to a cheaper individual costs for  lower nbr of owners.  

Thunder was indeed refurbished some 10 years ago  at Brooms and even as recently as 2015 shares were still going at close to 8k.

In the last year we have invested in a new engine, rewired her, and in Feb will have new Teak effect carpeting thru out so a further investment but I doubt the current share price will go up to reflect this either.  

[Maxwellian]

The fact is that the market value of the boat is not the only thing that impacts the value of a share that can be realised. Demand is one of the main drivers, affected by many things even the way the weeks are selected and where it is berthed.

[Matt]

The fact is that the market value of the boat is not the only thing that impacts the value of a share that can be realised. Demand is one of the main drivers, affected by many things even the way the weeks are selected and where it is berthed.

And how much money a Syndicate has in the bank!!


Sent from my iPhone using Norfolk Broads Network

[BroadAmbition]

Would be interesting to know Griff as you have the only sort of private syndicate boat I know of whether what I stated for the expenses is anywhere near what it costs yourselves to run the boat. Obviously I didn't put down the costs of winter maintenance or things like gas bottles and valets.

'B.A' annual running costs as of 2018/19.   Moorings (Wet Shed), River toll, Insurance, 24 x Hr breakdown inc prop insurance come in at nigh on £3k per year.

 

There are five shares in 'B.A' but only four shareholders  -  mysen,   Bro',   Capt Chaos and of course LondonRascal.  (Capt Chaos - Both me and Bro have known him since 74-ish).  There is a fifth share left over from 'The Admiral' mine and Bro's Dad who sadly left us during the five n a half year restoration.  Myself and Bro' took on that share between us.  So in Yorkshire speak (Straightforward stuff) that means that for every £100 that each share holder invests into 'B.A' then me and Bro' have to invest £150.

The both of us do not get any benefits from owning that fifth share between us, no more extra time on the water etc.  What we do have is an extra vote between us should we as a syndicate ever have differing views we have to put to a vote.  In the sixteen years we have been 'B.A's custodians we have never to date had to use the voting system.  If as a group we ever sold 'B.A' then we would enjoy a slightly larger return as her sale price would be split into five equal shares.  Whew, that's got that lot explained.

Back to that £3k = £600 per share for the year.  Yes that's all she costs per share.  For me and Bro' she costs us £900 per year each.   BUT that is before the key is turned, mooring ropes onboad and she sails forth.  Diesel is each ones burden - you pay for what you use. She is always returned to the wetshed with emptied black tank and full diesel tank.  Cleaning / turnaround - NOWT - We do it oursens whilst cruising back up the Ant, finishing off inside the wetshed.  We each bring our own bedding with us, the duvets and pillows stay onboard.   Gas 13kg propane we take it in turns to replace but it costs us pennies and who cares if we go slightly out of turn now and again

So we are still on £600 per share plus running costs, these cannot be pre determined.  2018 saw 'B.A' Crewed up for ninety one days.  Not all of these days were spent out on the rivers some of them were maintenance weekends.  You bend/break it - You fix it.  That is, any damage whether the skippers fault or not is down to the skipper onboard at the time to make good on behalf of the other skippers.  If you have to use the insurance - Do so but you will be responsible for the loss of the no claims bonus to make up the shortfall.

Maintenance - Minimal due to the painstaking not skimping or cutting corners during the restoration.  However there is of course some to do, this is split 5 x ways.  Upgrades - A blasted kings ransom when you have a young ambitious techy called Robin with his finger firmly on the pulse!  We are sensible about upgrades and only really do them if it will benefit 'B.A' and the crews

Every two years 'B.A' undergoes an 'AMP' - 'Assisted Maintenance Period' the assistance comes in the way of whichever yard we are out of the water at and our long suffering 'Associate Members' (Press ganged mates) This involves her being out of the water for ten days max and we go bonkers, 12 Hrs + each day.  Lots of planning beforehand and yes it is open wallet surgery but only every two years (April this year at Sutton Staithe). Even if we spend say £3k it's only £600 each (£900 for me and Bro')

The main points with a diy private syndicate.  Someone has to be the 'Senior Skipper' to make decisions on all our behalf.  which is of course me, but nowadays less and less which is a good thing.  You need lots of skills to.  Mine are woodbutchery / engineering / 12 and 240v / Gas / cabinet maker / painter / varnisher / surveyor and all rounder.  Bro' is better than me on electrics, he is ok-ish at woodbutchery rubbish at painting and even worse at varnishing, he is right up there with electronics. He is v.good on metalworking and could do the engineering but leaves that to me.  Robin - Is the tops on tech / upgrades / research / bargains / ideas.  He is also a damn good listener and will turn his hands to most things if shown the way, a real bonus in his locker is that is not afraid to ask for advice / help.  Capt Chaos - is well, just Capt Chaos, would put Frank Spencer to shame.  Proper good at doing as he is told and is keen to have a go at most things.  He is also our financial safety net should the sh1t ever hit the fan (It never has)

Th weakness is our syndicate is the amount of time we each spend 'Hands On' during maintenance or upgrade weekends.  It isn't fair, never has been and probably never will be.  Life is like that some times and we just have to take it on the chin

Hope the above helps

Griff

Edit - P.S  The biggest two savings imho any syndicate can make is not paying for management services and labour on any maintenance and upgrades.  Do it yersen for a fraction of the cost

 

 

 

[jimbob88]

So my costings weren't too far off then if you get a good group together and also able to do some of the work yourself. 

[Mouldy]

Looking at Griff's response, I'd say that more or less all of the remedial work is completed by the syndicate.  If you were to get a small group of owners together, how many would wish to commit several days a year looking after the boat and keeping her looking good, or have the necessary skills.  This includes compounding and polishing the gel coat, repairing any damages, servicing the gas system, heating, engine, gearbox, repairing or replacing damaged upholstery and other remedial maintenance etc.  What would the cost of lifting the boat annually for cleaning be?

Who would provide repairs to defects reported by owners at the end of their holidays and how would they be funded.  Even what appears to be relatively run of the mill repairs are costly - a new fridge fitted to Moonlight Shadow recently was circa £700.

Googleing  Aquafibre Diamond 35s has revealed a few on the market, all around 60k:

http://www.broadlandyachtbrokers.co.uk/boats/183

With just 6 members of a syndicate, that's 10k to buy into it anyway, without an initial refurb (if required). 

I know the maintenance figure for Moonlight Shadow appears quite high on the BCBM website, but that includes all maintenance costs, moorings, winter maintenance, cleaning and a contingency for unexpected costs arising.  I realise that this will not suit everyone, but when I get holidays from work, I would rather spend my time cruising, not working on the boat.

 Personally, I think that a venture of this sort would be too easy to go into with rose tinted spectacles, without looking realistically at the potential pitfalls and your hypothetical  costings look, to me at least, extremely low.  Although buying an ex hire craft should guarantee that it has been regularly maintained, it almost certainly will have had a hard life. 

[NorfolkNog]

A very interesting thread indeed and Griff's points are well made. Clearly a base line for running a boat is around the 3k mark (depending on where you moor of course). The rest is basically what the owner(s) are prepared or able to do. Many owners get real pleasure and satisfaction about being hands on with maintenance and upgrades, which is fine. Others prefer to sit back and let others do it but of course this is when the costs start to mount up.

Personally my Broads time is limited by a) my wallet and b) the time Mrs Nog can get off work. We don't drive so flitting down for a weekend or at short notice is a no no.

Having read this thread through again, I've come to the conclusion we (personally) are better off hiring for the time being. There's no worries about the boat - like grandchildren, you can just hand them back. We like 10 day breaks if we can manage it particularly in winter which could be awkward in a syndicate. And I'd hate to have to base my holidays on the luck of the draw. Also in winter hire costs are at their lowest so we get a good deal there.

I think unless Swan Reflection 2 comes up for sale or those little numbers come up, we'll stay as we are!

[Vaughan]

I wonder if I might offer a different perspective on this, as the subject of the thread is "thoughts"?

I have a lifetime (literally) in the hire boat business, so I know how much it costs to run a hire boat.

In May this year we have hired a 10 berth cruiser from Richardsons for two weeks, for about £1400. This includes the fuel deposit and a damage waver (which is optional). This is a large boat just for Susie and I but we have hired it for 3 reasons :

1/. We like to have plenty of space when we are living on a boat in comfort.

2/. We can invite family and friends to join us for a night or two during our holiday.

3/. It can be used as a clubhouse for impromptu cocktail parties if there is bad weather during the spring meet!     

 

Meantime, we have a great boat, maintained in top class condition and the hire price includes winter moorings, maintenance, servicing, upgrades including a new engine, damage repairs, insurance, river tolls, "management fee" and free car parking for our camper van. We also have the protection of a full breakdown service which is 24hr if necessary, we are provided with bed linen, we don't have to clean the boat in more than a cursory fashion (although of course, we do) and we don't even have to pump out the toilet tanks before we give it back. Depending on the speed that we have been driving it, we might even get a few quid back out of our fuel deposit!

In late October we might well book a smaller boat for a week, which will still bring our annual costs for 3 weeks on the Broads to no more than £2000 - total. In addition, we have the choice of whatever boat, from whatever yard, we wish to book it.

Personally, that is a deal that I am very happy with.