Fenders Up Or Down When Underway

[Seagypsy]

4 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

No worries I wasn't taking personally in any way, and to be fair I would be guessing if I tried to name which was which.

Any chance you will be at Spring Meet I'll teach you

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, Seagypsy said:

You get ropes on boats because the majority of boaters don't know what lines/halyards etc are.

Or maybe they just don't care and are to busy just enjoying being afloat.

Fred

[Thiswan]

35 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Or maybe they just don't care and are to busy just enjoying being afloat.

Fred

rightsaidfred - I can just hear you giving instructions to your deck crew "Both of us togeather one each side and steady as we go" and as regards to the mud weight "Try to lift it couldn't even shift  it"

[Thiswan]

2 hours ago, Smoggy said:

I do know though, they are daft names for ropes.....

The trouble I got into when I threw this decorator ashore when a guy on the quay said throw me the painter!

[Vaughan]

4 hours ago, Smoggy said:

I thought there were no such things as ropes on boats, just lines/sheets/halyards/cables/warps.

Oh dear, there's always one, isn't there?

Only trying to offer a useful tip for those who may not have heard, but maybe I should have known better!

Most cordage in the Navy is called rope and falls into four categories:

1/.Natural fibre rope.

2/.Synthetic fibre rope

3/.ESFSWR, or extra special flexible steel wire rope. (You have to coil that with the "lay" as well, or it will have your leg off!)

4 "Cable laid" rope, or what you call braided dock line. I think that may be an American term.

"Cable" can be an anchor chain (which is measured in shackles, not fathoms) and it can also refer to a towing cable, made of steel wire rope. Its use nowadays is as a measure of distance. One tenth of a nautical mile.

A "warp" is a cable used to move a ship on its moorings without using the engines. Also made of wire rope.

A "line" would be a light line for throwing (heaving) or a dressing line. The word can also describe a mooring rope. A rope stretched on deck in bad weather is a life-line.

A "halyard" on a motor cruiser would only apply  if it had a flag mast.

Grendel has already covered "sheets".

As to mooring lines, the ones out from the bow and stern are called head ropes and stern ropes. If they go straight from the bow or stern to the bank, as when moored on a canal, they are breast ropes. If they come in from the bow and stern to the bank amidships to stop surging in a tide, they are spring lines. Also made of rope.

So there is not much cordage, really, on a cruiser or a yacht, that can't be called "rope". Also we on the Broads are dealing with holidaymakers, so we have to keep it simple. That's why we also call it the front and the back!

 

[MauriceMynah]

17 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Grendel has already covered "sheets".

Yuk !

[JennyMorgan]

Surely a great deal of the fun is in getting it 'right'. Britain has a wonderful sea-going heritage, why not celebrate it by using it?

[MauriceMynah]

38 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Surely a great deal of the fun is in getting it 'right'.

We get our jollies how we can Peter, we get our jollies how we can.

[JennyMorgan]

1 minute ago, MauriceMynah said:

We get our jollies how we can Peter, we get our jollies how we can.

So true! Some do miss out though.

[rightsaidfred]

4 hours ago, Thiswan said:

rightsaidfred - I can just hear you giving instructions to your deck crew "Both of us togeather one each side and steady as we go" and as regards to the mud weight "Try to lift it couldn't even shift  it"

Give instructions no chance more than my life`s worth 

[YnysMon]

Referring to ‘Ropes’ is mostly fine on a cruiser as there aren’t that many of them. Bit useless on a sailey though, when you need your crew to grab a specific rope. There’s just loads of them! I remember Graham getting very miffed with me the first time he took me out sailing in Trearduur Bay, and I got very cross with him for getting miffed with me. All because I didn’t know one rope from another!

[rightsaidfred]

4 hours ago, Thiswan said:

rightsaidfred - I can just hear you giving instructions to your deck crew "Both of us togeather one each side and steady as we go" and as regards to the mud weight "Try to lift it couldn't even shift  it"

Mud weight is that the dangly thing on the pointy end 

Fred

[JennyMorgan]

9 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Mud weight is that the dangly thing on the pointy end 

Fred

Not necessarily, it could just as easily be a large, blue fendoff! 

[vanessan]

3 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Surely a great deal of the fun is in getting it 'right'. 

I thought we had established that getting it right for some is not right for others? Trying to do something that is difficult, for whatever reason, is not ‘fun’. Anyway, who makes the rules as to what is ‘right’, particularly for leisure boating? 

[Malanka]

We quite often have two dangly heavy things, sometimes both at the pointy end, sometimes one at the pointy bit and one at the flat bit. Both have ropes on em! 

 

M

[JennyMorgan]

36 minutes ago, vanessan said:

I thought we had established that getting it right for some is not right for others? Trying to do something that is difficult, for whatever reason, is not ‘fun’. Anyway, who makes the rules as to what is ‘right’, particularly for leisure boating? 

Each to their own. I understand that Flag etiquette is an incredibly popular topic on the RYS's help pages on their website but at the end of the day, like table manners, it's all a matter of choice and values.  For me it all adds to the fun of boating but that's my choice. Certainly nothing difficult about it all. I certainly don't wish to fall out over it!

[BroadAmbition]

Fenders up or down?

For me it's a personal choice thing. Snobbery as someone said it most certainly is not - well not for me personally or any of my crews I would hope either.  I would take issue with anyone that thought of me as a snob - really?  Where I came from or how I got here - Not gonna happen

There is a safety issue here too, some craft just don't lend themselves well to having fenders on deck and of course some crews are not able bodied / too senior to lift them even if they wanted to.  Then there is the boat safety to consider.  I have seen on more than one occasion fenders left over the side getting caught on other craft / banks / trees etc which has ended up causing more damage, best one was the dyke down to Neatishead staithe when a cruiser passed a sailing yacht and a fender caught on one of the wire shrouds - that made a pickle and could have been dodgy for the crew too.  We see no end of fenders floating into the wet shed that have been ripped off somewhere out on the rivers and most of us have seen them merrily bobbing along in the rivers unattended.

To my ex-Rn Port and Stbd lookouts, craft look better underway with fenders up.  The brochures that the hire craft companies provide you may have noticed that most of the photographs taken of hire craft are with fenders up or removed entirely

I was just brought up both on the Broads and in the RN to always lift fenders whilst underway.  For me it's like not brushing ones teeth in the morning, or setting off in the car with the boot / tailgate up - it's just not right, doesn't look right and doesn't feel right but I stress that's just me - it's a personal thing.

We always lift fenders onboard 'B.A' and any hirecraft Lads week included and will continue to do so.  If other skippers / crews want to leave them down - then that's their choice and it bothers me not a jot, the only time it does bother me a slight iota is when I see them dragging in the water causing noise / turbulence etc but I would not dream of pointing it out to said craft.  As for lifting them when solo cruising - Well when I am solo cruising - Then the fenders whilst underway are - Yep onboard deck, it ain't difficult, just a bit more forward thinking / planning

Griff

[BroadAmbition]

Ropes - Yes Ropes - Not sheets (Or hawsers especially wire ones)

Now that is a different topic to Fenders up or down and I suppose should have been on a different thread.

Some forumite stated that it was an aesthetic thing to cheese a rope down - Well for me I disagree entirely with that one.

The ability to coil a rope, stow it away or hang it up on a convenient bulkhead just ain't practical on a very high percentage of Broads cruisers.  So what does one do?  Just chuck it on deck in a heap anywhere will do, it happens and so what?  Just coil it down any old fashion and leave it on deck anywhere will do, it happens and so what?

Well, I will advise some crews of so what and what can / may and has happened and as sure as the rivers ebb to sea will no doubt happen again.  Btw - This ain't a rant or an RN style order, it's just advice that be taken or left.  It's just my personal take and how I or my crew do seamen evolutions whilst onboard any craft.

Its a safety issue not aesthetic at all.      1)  Safety for crew primarily.  If a rope is loose on deck and you stand on it, the rope will roll underfoot, crew members can then lose footing/grip and over the side they go, probably hitting part of their body on the boat on their way into the wet and crinckly stuff whilst they are at it.     2) Coiled down and / or loose, if it is proper windy then said rope is going over the side, around the prop and that's as far as you are going.  At best with propeller cover it's inconvenient / embarrassing at worst its damage to the drive gear and a ruined mooring rope not to mention a craft underway with no means of stopping and decreasing answering to the helm.  I forget just how many times a year I am calling out to passing craft that have a stern rope trailing in the water behind them, crew blissfully unaware, just waiting for them to stop / go astern and bingo, even worse get it caught around another craft

We always cheese down mooring ropes - Always.  Firstly:-  For crew safety.  A rope that is cheesed down - You can stand on it all day long, on purpose or by accident and it ain't gonna chuck you over the side or get wrapped round the boats prop.  Secondly:-  For boat safety.  And yes,   Thirdly and lastly:-  It looks ship shape and Bristol fashion - That's just a by-product of points 1) and 2)  one that I personally quite like

A cheesed down rope never ever gets kinked either on using said rope if one picks the damn thing up correctly before deploying it.  I rarely get exasperated with my crews unless they insist on picking up a cheesed down rope incorrectly time after time and putting kinks in it.

Again, some craft don't lend themselves well to cheesing down a rope, but at least stow them safely or in a fashion where they can't do harm to crew or the boat at the very least brief the crew there is a loose / coiled rope on deck

Griff

[vanessan]

1 hour ago, JennyMorgan said:

I certainly don't wish to fall out over it!

I’m sure no one will, particularly those of us who have been members here for a while. Sometimes the responses to posts can come across as a bit of ‘oneupmanship’, I think I just made that up to be a full word but you know what I mean I’m sure. The majority (?) of us are true leisure boaters I reckon, we go out to enjoy ourselves on the rivers and, as long as we are safe, don’t worry too much about ‘looking the part’. For those with a navy background, I can understand the need to maintain standards, as Griff said it’s a personal thing. 

[JennyMorgan]

41 minutes ago, vanessan said:

I’m sure no one will, particularly those of us who have been members here for a while. Sometimes the responses to posts can come across as a bit of ‘oneupmanship’, I think I just made that up to be a full word but you know what I mean I’m sure. The majority (?) of us are true leisure boaters I reckon, we go out to enjoy ourselves on the rivers and, as long as we are safe, don’t worry too much about ‘looking the part’. For those with a navy background, I can understand the need to maintain standards, as Griff said it’s a personal thing. 

Amen to that! 

[VetChugger]

3 hours ago, BroadAmbition said:

The brochures that the hire craft companies provide you may have noticed that most of the photographs taken of hire craft are with fenders up or removed entirely

I suspect that particular snippet has more to do with air brushing than manual labour!

 

[BroadAmbition]

It could well be.  But why do it? Why remove fenders manually or by air brushing? - To show them off to their best? - Surely not!

Griff

[Vaughan]

I agree with all that Griff says and I am ex maritime myself but I look at it (naturally) from a hire boat perspective. You can't expect hirers to adjust the height of fenders or they will lose them over the side in the attempt, so they are usually attached permanently by the boatyard. Sometimes with chains and shackles! This also means the fender eyes are below the top rubbing strake, so the ropes don't get abraded.

A cheesed down rope (known to most as a "cow pat") is indeed a good way to avoid the tripping hazard but I can't imagine telling the average hirer how to cheese down a rope properly, during a trial run on a busy Saturday in August! Maybe the Sea Scouts do it but they have their own instructors.

So I prefer to show them how to coil a rope neatly (into the left hand) and lay it down on the deck, with the loose end at the top of the coil. It is then much less of a tripping hazard, but it also means that when you are coming into moor (especially in a lock) you can simply pick up one end of the coil and throw it to the bank. If you have coiled it neatly it will pay out cleanly and the lock keeper can catch it.

I know it is not strictly "pusser" but for me it is the most practical way on inland waterways.

[eddybear]

10 hours ago, BroadAmbition said:

Again, some craft don't lend themselves well to cheesing down a rope, but at least stow them safely or in a fashion where they can't do harm to crew or the boat at the very least brief the crew there is a loose / coiled rope on deck

It may not be just the craft but circumstances like being single-handed which in my case I usually am but will always stow my warps  coiled on hooks fore and aft which I can pick up in each hand while stepping ashore no drama (No crew), Oh and for the same reason I am a fenders down Man

[rightsaidfred]

Perhaps snobbery wasn't the best choice of word but it was only intended to make a comparison not point a finger,  as stepping ashore is easier and safer from the majority of boat designs I still think after 40 years experience having fenders down and laying the bow ropes along the sides to the stern area with stern ropes coiled so that you can step ashore (note step not jump)  with both ropes is the safest method for most people alleviating any need to be above decks while underway, as for loose fenders floating about I would suggest that most of those either come from a boat that is actually moored up again I speak from experience or from the one coming in to or leaving a mooring.

Fred