Save Our Broads, Not Just Bins.

[JennyMorgan]

Enjoy this absolute classic image of the Broads from over a hundred years ago. Big sky, as we have today, but where are the trees? Back then the Broads landscape was controlled by man, the character & heritage of the Broads was created by those who lived by navigating the rivers or worked the marshes & fields. Today miles of riverbank are blanketed by trees, the Broads is a very different landscape. Things do move on, developing as demand requires.  However, neglect can also take its toll. Open water is a part of our heritage and tradition.

[Wonderwall]

8 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Enjoy this absolute classic image of the Broads from over a hundred years ago. Big sky, as we have today, but where are the trees? Back then the Broads landscape was controlled by man, the character & heritage of the Broads was created by those who lived by navigating the rivers or worked the marshes & fields. Today miles of riverbank are blanketed by trees, the Broads is a very different landscape. Things do move on, developing as demand requires.  However, neglect can also take its toll. Open water is a part of our heritage and tradition.

I'm not sure what your point is here.

That photo could have been taken yesterday, parts of the rivers still look exactly like that , especially from an aerial prospective.  Are you saying the broads were better when man intervened with nature more?

Im not picking a fight here, I'm genuinely intrigued by your post.

[JennyMorgan]

3 minutes ago, Wonderwall said:

Are you saying the broads were better when man intervened with nature more?

Perhaps I am! Maybe not 'better' but certainly different. If we take the River Yare as an example, downstream of Coldham Hall is still pretty much as it was back then but above Brundall it is now heavily tree lined, it would never have been like that as the industrialised river that it was. No question that we have lost open Broads to neglect, it's an historical fact. Maybe I'm asking just how far should we let this neglect go? 

[Paladin]

27 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Perhaps I am! Maybe not 'better' but certainly different. If we take the River Yare as an example, downstream of Coldham Hall is still pretty much as it was back then but above Brundall it is now heavily tree lined, it would never have been like that as the industrialised river that it was. No question that we have lost open Broads to neglect, it's an historical fact. Maybe I'm asking just how far should we let this neglect go? 

JennyMorgan, times certainly have changed. 100+ years ago, trading wherries were a major part of the scene. Businesses, including farmers, depended on them to move goods around. The wherrymen (and their boys) would carry out bank maintenance (keeping the carr at bay) as it was in their interests to do so. The landowners (most of them) didn’t object either as it also benefited them to keep the wherries moving.

Today, that bank maintenance is carried out by the BA, who have conflicting priorities. They keep (some of) the banks clear, but also have to consider the effect on wildlife. They also have to negotiate with the landowners (and the Forestry Commission etc) before carrying out the work. They have very limited powers to insist on work being carried out, principally, I believe, only if there is an obstruction to navigation.

I am not averse to carrying a bean hook, secateurs, pruning saw and loppers on board, but their use could be construed as criminal damage. Probably some landowners wouldn’t object, but there are others, such as those who delight in erecting No Mooring signs, who undoubtedly would.

Perhaps you would like to canvass all the Broads landowners, to establish who would, and who wouldn’t, welcome boaters' intervention, compile a list and, perhaps, leisure boaters could take over where the wherrymen left off.

[MauriceMynah]

Sorry Peter but I too struggle to see your point. If man makes something be it the Norfolk Broads or a garden pond, the maintenance of it is not necessarily to keep it as it is. If it is to keep it in use, then surely it must change as that use changes.

The Broads are not, in my mind, being neglected as you suggest, far from it. It is now a leisure area not a commercial shipping route. Wherries are a small minority, and they carry passengers not cargo. The southern waters are often criticised as being boring, with reed lined banks and their top spots are areas like the run up to Geldeston.

[Malanka]

Don’t ask natural England or any other quango, their idea of natural is tedious to say the least. They pick a period in time they like and hmmmmm scratch head, that’s the natural we want.... face palm.....No area of the UK is natural in the way that say America is. No bears for a start. 

Grouse moors, moorland in general not natural, Scottish mountains with no Caledonian Forrest  not natural. 

 

M

[MauriceMynah]

Human beings are part of nature. Does it not then follow that their effects on places are equally natural? Beavers build dams, Humans build MacDonalds.

[JennyMorgan]

The picture is actually of Postwick Grove just outside Norwich and the photo was taken by George Christopher Davies and published in the 1870s.  Whimsey perhaps,  but I often wonder what the ideal is, if indeed there is one. What do we need to do down South to prevent the rivers being boring, personally I find them fascinating and the reeds crammed with interest. As a sailor, whilst I love the river above Beccles, I admit that it is not the best of sailing rivers!

[marshman]

In some respects I have to agree with my mate Mr Waller - I love those open landscapes but in many respects those open landscapes were the result of bored wherrymen who took it upon themselves to keep the tree growth down in the winter when they had no cargo - but now, who takes responsibility? Landowners certainly are not really interested these days and farmers no longer have the manpower and the marshes are generally just too too wet for machinery.

Sadly I think it is now even too much for the BA who battle on but even their new tree shears require man power to clear up behind them - free manpower is just not available these days! Even volunteers have to be regulated and now the BA seem unable to attract a decent volunteer force to go out and scrub bash marshes. OK they do a bit but if you don't scrub bash, they soon become trees and the battle is then lost - sadly!

On the more positive side I am delighted to see this winter that the wildlife trust on Hickling have removed a large part of the silver birch stand between White Slea and Heigham Sound - this had grown up on old dredgings dumped years ago. It was always an incongruous addition to the skyline but the bodies are not there to manage marshes - ok you will say it is not natural to control  marshes but with only trees to look at and no marshes, it would lead to an entirely different landscape and one I would not welcome everywhere.

Still I am only an old git harking back to the past for some things and more open river and reed landscapes are one of them!!!!!!!

[Malanka]

Hi John, just to be contentious, lefty agenda driven tree huggers, maybe with a phd in Victorian women’s literature (Deluded ex head of the green party) I have met her she truly is....Always start with “man can now control nature”. After that start it’s always 100% downhill. It’s that kind of super hubristic arrogance that gave us the UNFCC. For justification they use big numbers 7 Billion etc. x Olympic swimming pools y mega gazillion tons. Natural England do this. These loons have even decided with no real evidence of an empirical nature ( and before anyone starts to argue  I said EMPIRICAL) to name an epoch in our honor. They have labeled it the anthropocene. 

To put the case what I mean is this: Natural England and other such agenda driven quagos DECIDE, what is natural. This of course takes no account of the fact that the UK has many “ natural habitats” none of which are truly natural. 

according to natural England to allow east coast flooding to occur is natural. Why? Because they want to, do they have to no, ( ask the Dutch) but they decide to do so. 

So natural is not a description I would use for the UK, managed is a better word. 

Using that word then of course reveals the political influences at play to change the status quo ante so they don’t use it. 

 

M

[Vaughan]

4 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

I was looking for that photo a few months ago to illustrate a point about lack of trees on another thread. My brother in law has a framed copy of it at home.

I was also right about something else - Postwick Grove used to have a sandy beach. Not any more!

Just to orientate those who may not recognise this area now :

On the meadow to the left is now the Whitlingham sewage works. After the wherry's next right hand bend is where the southern bypass flyover crosses over the river and just up the hill on the right is now the Postwick Park and Ride. Hoboroughs, later May Gurney and nowadays the BA wedding event tent is just round the left hand bend in the distance. Just to the right of the wherry's mast is the brick chimney of the Thorpe mental hospital and just between the two you can just see Jarrold's tower, which was a big folly on the high ground above Thorpe, at Pinebanks. If there were no cloud in the centre of the photo, you would have a good view of Norwich cathedral and St Peter Mancroft church.

The wherry appears to be loaded with timber.

[rightsaidfred]

I must admit this is an interesting thesis but where do you start from and what is natural or what is neglect?.

How much of England is truly natural these days?  very little I would imagine, when that photo was taken even large parts of what is now London were farm land or marsh to  which you can add numerous other changes man has made to the natural landscape of this country let alone the world.

One question that springs to mind is which has or had the greatest impact, mans interference with nature or natures interference with man and which is the most detrimental.

Fred

[MauriceMynah]

Natural England has informed me that the various shades of green covering my boat makes it an Area of Special Scientific Interest, and that under no circumstances am I to wash it.

 

That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

[Malanka]

I don’t believe anything that nature does is or should be described as detrimental. The reason being one has to ask to what? In natural systems what’s bad for one habitat or species is always good for another that’s what makes the world go round.

Putting everything in human terms is what the tree huggers do which is incredibly dangerous and hubristic. Using big numbers out of context or even without context is another thing they do. As far as the UK is concerned natural doesn’t really apply anymore anywhere. We are told that the UK is densely populated, whilst this is true per se relative to other European nations, without any context the sentence is meaningless, the actual area of the uk that is urban ( to give some context) is still less than 5% of the total area. So densely populated? Really??? 

In the US there are still places where humans may not yet have set foot. The sheer size of the place is incomprehensible in terms humans can grasp. This gives rise to a phrase which I think helps to both explain and lighten the mood. 

Americans think 100 years is a long time, and Brits think 100 miles is a long way.......

Have a great weekend 

 

M

[Malanka]

John your boat is an unique habitat for sure. 

 

M

[JennyMorgan]

Not a first but fairly rare, I agree 100% with Marsh on this topic. 

I think, sometimes, that in regards to the Broads we cannot freeze time so to speak. There those who clamour for a halcyon age,  however that varies between commentators, but is that mythical time really achievable? What we can do is to learn from history though. 

38 minutes ago, Malanka said:

John your boat is an unique habitat for sure. M

I dread to think what his bottom is like!

[MauriceMynah]

Somebody looked at my bottom only last week and remarked on how surprisingly clean it was.

[Londonlad1985]

5 hours ago, Malanka said:

....No area of the UK is natural in the way that say America is. No bears for a start

I've seen some bear like creatures emerging from Herbert Woods craft during a certain week in October.....

[Londonlad1985]

On a serious note, and from the perspective of a broads novice, I've noticed during my time on the NBN there is a sense of loss people seem to feel, when they get nostalgic. I'm a noob to the broads having 1st visited almost 4 years ago. It's fair to say I'm hooked, I've wondered have I missed the boat so to speak, maybe I missed other peoples boats.... I'm glad I did visist, I think it's a wonderful place now and I hope it continues to be.

I expect I'll be looking back in 40 years time (If I'm lucky) and talking about the way things were and noticing that a heck of a lot has changed. I hope I don't feel a sense of loss though. 

It's a lovley photo, as are all of the pictures of the 'Old Days'.

[grendel]

24 minutes ago, Londonlad1985 said:

I've seen some bear like creatures emerging from Herbert Woods craft during a certain week in October.....

I was probably one of those.

[Smoggy]

Sod nature, the biggest thing the broads is now missing is pubs, I hate looking at old os maps seeing ph where theres not been a pub for a long time.

We need pub huggers not tree huggers!

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, Londonlad1985 said:

On a serious note, and from the perspective of a broads novice, I've noticed during my time on the NBN there is a sense of loss people seem to feel, when they get nostalgic. I'm a noob to the broads having 1st visited almost 4 years ago. It's fair to say I'm hooked, I've wondered have I missed the boat so to speak, maybe I missed other peoples boats.... I'm glad I did visist, I think it's a wonderful place now and I hope it continues to be.

I expect I'll be looking back in 40 years time (If I'm lucky) and talking about the way things were and noticing that a heck of a lot has changed. I hope I don't feel a sense of loss though. 

It's a lovley photo, as are all of the pictures of the 'Old Days'.

I dont think you need worry about what you have missed just enjoy what you have, it is a fact of life the older you get and look back the more you remember the good and forget the bad its called Rose tinted glasses, I loved my youth but equally enjoy what I now have.

Fred

[vanessan]

3 hours ago, Smoggy said:

Sod nature, the biggest thing the broads is now missing is pubs, I hate looking at old os maps seeing ph where theres not been a pub for a long time.

We need pub huggers not tree huggers!

Not only the Broads though, pubs have disappeared from all over the country. 

[Malanka]

Make a friend hug a pub..... 

[MauriceMynah]

Lesh be comppleetly clear here. I've been huggggging lubplic hooses for a long time now.