Gtl

[RS2021]

GTL - What's that? Apparently its Gas to Liquid fuel. I've just looked at NBD's website and they are moving their hire fleet from diesel to GTL. Its supposed to be greener, cleaner etc.

I'd never heard of it before. Has anyone else? Does it do what is claimed? Any down side? or just hype?

[oldgregg]

It's a synthetic diesel made from Natural Gas. Theoretically it's cleaner and in Europe it is used in marine applications such as the Canal boats in Copenhagen.

I'd be interested to see what the cost per litre is here though, and I would assume NBD won't be happy about people doing a mid-week top-up at Boulters or Goodchilds etc (not that anyone does that ).

[WherryNice]

Just saw on Instagram that Herbert Woods are also going to be changing over to this fuel too...

[oldgregg]

Sounds like the Shell rep has been round the yards then....

[Meantime]

So if I understand it correctly, there is no need for any changes to the engine and the fuel is a direct replacement for existing red diesel, yet HW state on their web site that they're currently absorbing the additional costs associated with this fuel!

Which poses a few questions?

Is it more expensive than normal Red diesel?

If so I assume they intend to sell it at the same price, if they are absorbing cost?

Therefore will they still be selling diesel to private boats, and if so at what price?

How will they handle those that fill up at other places prior to returning the boat. Presumably if there are no changes needed to the engine it will still run on the old Red as before?

Will be interesting to see how this plays out in the long run, and how long before other places selling diesel switch over.

[grendel]

as long as its cheaper....

[oldgregg]

1 hour ago, EastCoastIPA said:

So if I understand it correctly, there is no need for any changes to the engine and the fuel is a direct replacement for existing red diesel, yet HW state on their web site that they're currently absorbing the additional costs associated with this fuel!

Which poses a few questions?

Is it more expensive than normal Red diesel?

If so I assume they intend to sell it at the same price, if they are absorbing cost?

Therefore will they still be selling diesel to private boats, and if so at what price?

How will they handle those that fill up at other places prior to returning the boat. Presumably if there are no changes needed to the engine it will still run on the old Red as before?

Will be interesting to see how this plays out in the long run, and how long before other places selling diesel switch over.

GTL is a few pence per litre more generally, so it'll be interesting to see the pump price here.

I don't believe the calorific value is exactly the same so real world fuel consumption could be lower - Only time will tell though as there are obviously other factors.

[Gretzky]

What would happen if you topped up at say Boulters with regular red?

[Meantime]

6 minutes ago, Gretzky said:

What would happen if you topped up at say Boulters with regular red?

By the sounds of it nothing, as its a direct replacement with nothing needed to be changed on the engine. If GTL is slightly more expensive and HW are absorbing the cost, then the fact that the tank will take less on your return means they have less to absorb, so no harm done, other than perhaps going against the "green ethics" of the company.

Will be interesting to see what price it is offered to privateers though, or even if they stop selling to privateers!

[Gretzky]

Thanks EastCoastIPA I was just wondering

[oldgregg]

5 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

so no harm done, other than perhaps going against the "green ethics" of the company.

It's a fairly new product to market but a lot of the takers are citing the reduction in particulates and NOx even if it does cost a little bit more...

Clearly, we are not running Euro 6 engines on the Broads so the gains are a lot slimmer - But it could see a marginal improvement in pollution. Who knows - Only time will tell.

[Meantime]

Just now, oldgregg said:

It's a fairly new product to market but a lot of the takers are citing the reduction in particulates and NOx even if it does cost a little bit more...

Clearly, we are not running Euro 6 engines on the Broads - But it could see a marginal improvement in pollution. Who knows - Only time will tell.

Will be interesting to see how it plays out over time. One thing that does occur to me is that if the yards want to make sure that only GTL ends up in their tanks, what's to stop them fitting locking caps? I know I've had one on my tank for some time now.

In the time I've had my boat I've seen the price rise from 31.5p per litre to 119.8p per litre last fill at Goodchilds. In the grand scheme of things if the fuel really is greener and cleaner then I wouldn't object to switching and paying a few pence more, even better if it becomes popular and eventually cheaper, but that is probably just a pipedream.

[Meantime]

Another thought has occurred to me. I'm assuming they are also using it in the heaters as well? I remember reading somewhere that the diesel heaters actually performed better running on paraffin than Red diesel anyway, so I wonder if GTL would be better than Red?

[marshman]

Bit like Aspen petrol - only that is a lot more expensive! ( Well not really as its petrol, not diesel!! )

They do a regular 4 stroke fuel which burns cleaner as does the ready mixed 2 stroke - none of this gunk in your carburettor and it has a shelf life of 6/7 years. You don't get clouds of smoke with the 2 stroke either, nor oily plugs, but it is expensive. Having said that it does seem to be the go to fuel for your chain saw etc with some retailers selling it as if its going out of fashion! (Actually it seems to be in fashion, rather than not!! )

Read all the gubbins here

 https://aspenfuel.co.uk/

 

 

[grendel]

 there is of course the other option with less particulates, a greener fuel overall as it can be grown (isnt natural gas a fossil fuel the same as diesel) and that is sunflower oil, currently in asda at £3.75 for a 5 litre bottle, maybe not useable in the most modern diesels, but in the older ones, even at a 50/50 mix works out considerably cheaper.  

[oldgregg]

28 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Another thought has occurred to me. I'm assuming they are also using it in the heaters as well? I remember reading somewhere that the diesel heaters actually performed better running on paraffin than Red diesel anyway, so I wonder if GTL would be better than Red?

Given the higher calorific value it seems likely. But yes, no changes to the boats - It's just a different type of go-juice going into the same tank.

[oldgregg]

1 hour ago, grendel said:

maybe not useable in the most modern diesels

Well.... We're talking about OHV engines with gear-driven camshafts and mechanical injection pumps.

High tech they are not. But of course they are reliable and suited to the application. 

[Smoggy]

A lot of older diesels need a bit of sulphur and other stuff as part of the lubrication, how will gtl fare in older higher stressed engines? I doubt my old volvos would be over happy with it long term at higher speed use or do they add other additives to it?

[grendel]

1 hour ago, Smoggy said:

A lot of older diesels need a bit of sulphur and other stuff as part of the lubrication, how will gtl fare in older higher stressed engines? I doubt my old volvos would be over happy with it long term at higher speed use or do they add other additives to it?

Asda sunflower oil ?

[annv]

Hi Smoggy The sulphur lubricated the injectors and pump, GTL could be better for diesel bug prevention as no bio, i wonder if it is taxed as fuel yet, the lpg wasn't until people started to use it in cars, wasn't long be for gov put a carbon tax on,   it it will be a drier fuel than diesel so might catch users out that use cheap lubrication oil in their engines only time will tell.   if buses and taxis were forced to use it could help with city pollution whare battery capacity is limited for all day use. John

[TeamElla]

Read all about it here:-

https://www.shell.com/business-customers/commercial-fuels/shell-gtl-fuel/technical-information/_jcr_content/par/relatedtopics.stream/1496056917944/5bbe2047ad53280f54ce84ba3f824c68ef8be723/shell-gtl-fuel-knowledge-guide-en.pdf

[FairTmiddlin]

So it's a paraffinic fuel oil which has to have FAME (fatty acid Methyl Esthers) added to lubricate pumps and injectors.

Hoping that euro 1 engines of which the majority of Broads boats are have O rings and other sealing parts mostly made of rubber based materials are up to be used with FAME.

I notice that most testing has been done on euro 5 /6 vehicles. All which have DPF's fitted, wondering what the inland marinised with water fed exhausts will fare in the emissions tests.

Also it has a higher cetane number which means it has a higher calorific value. Maybe, that older engines may not have the valves and seats applicable to this type of fuel. They are citing a near 50% increase in calorific value, I would think that Nanni's and the more modern types should be OK, but!  Perkins and BMC's it maybe detrimental to their wellbeing.

[grendel]

I also read that it is a product synthesised from natural Gas, surely in the long term, though it may burn cleaner, that is no better than any other finite resource fossil fuel.

Now if (for instance) they could produce the fuel from a different gas (hydrogen for preference) then I could see a point to it.

surely though production of a diesel fuel from vegetable oils (a sustainable source) would be a better option.

also the cleaner emissions claim would have to be substantiated for a wet exhaust system, would for instance the fatty acid methyl esthers dissolve in the water to create a new pollutant?