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JanetAnne

Rangers On A Purge. ..

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its not as if anyone could miss the fact that it is Broad Ambition, if they cant read the number, surely the name in huge letters is a give away clue, plus how much more distinctive do they want - ooh what boat is that over there, sorry I cant read Broad Ambitions number, so I dont know. I would think there must be an argument for historic vessels displaying their number as they have all their previous existence maintaining them, in the same way that historic number plates are allowed on vintage cars. 

This might be an angle worth discussing with the Authority over the preservation of appearance of historic vessels.(I can just see Albion with a vinyl sticker with its number stuck on the hull, very in keeping with a traditional wherry)

plus are the rangers saying they cannot input a boat name into their database search? how about the exempt vessels that have transoms that cant display the number, but have the name clearly identified, - they can check those, so why not boats as distinctive as BA.

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I do hope you are not trying to bring common sense to the argument Peter?

 

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der - what else?

maybe Charlie should paint the numbers on similar to MTB 102 so they can read them (but I guess they would still be in the wrong place).

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You have a ticket confirming this Griff....

Good stuff, and thanks for letting me know although having just looked on the cameras I can't see it.

'B.A's reg numbers are highly visible even a ranger that has not been to specsavers couldn't miss them.  Her numbers are on the cabin sides up fwd where they have been since 1966.  They will still be there in 2066.

Anyroadup, let battle commence :default_norty:  My initial salvo will be to administer a damn good ignoring session

Griff

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Sailing half deckers, such as Waveney One Designs and Yare & Bure One Designs, plus thousands of dinghies, have never displayed numbers, do they now have to? I have to on my kayaks but how unsightly it would look on a Broads One Design with their fore and aft overhangs!

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well that was what I was wondering, with Broad Ambition, would the number be clearer where it is, or on the angle of the hull next to the name?

I suggest it is perfectly clear where it is, against a contrasting colour, on the angle it would be less visible from the side - see below, you can clearly read the number from the side, whereas the name on the angle isnt as easy to read.

R461.JPG

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I see that they have recently produced a document on this (January this year)

http://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/1446355/Display-of-Registration-Marks-nc170119.pdf

I do wonder if they have issued notice to all owners regarding this new interpretation of the regulations. (and whether it would be upheld in court considering the actual wording they have quoted in the initial paragraph, also they have stated their 'interpretation' of that wording, which to my mind is not the only interpretation that could be made).

bylaw 16 which they quote is worded -

Quote

‘No person shall moor, use or navigate a vessel on waters within the navigation area or cause or permit a vessel to be so moored, used or navigated unless the current registration mark issued by the Authority in respect of the vessel is conspicuously displayed at all times on both sides of the vessel near the bow and on the stern of the vessel.’

 

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I wonder, does this super new recognition system recognise names just in case a Ranger suffers from dyscalculia? 

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Im getting confused exactly where the registration numbers should be. On ours is where BAs name is on either side of the bow and then one on the stern. I’m assuming thats how Luna’s regs have always been displayed. Like Griff, we want to keep Luna as original as possible so wouldnt be happy at changing these plus the cost.

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Quote

3.3. Regarding items (i) and (ii), officers have reviewed the guidance document, the comments from the NSBA and the options available. They are of the view that while some minor improvements could be beneficial to the document, for example combining categories 1 and 2 for private and hire motor cruisers which have the same requirements, this is not a pressing matter which would justify revising the present document before its distribution to all boat owners in the new tolls year.

this paragraph seems to indicate that a document expressing the correct positioning and usage of the registration numbers has been issued to all toll payers, I suggest if this is not so, that any action they take could be challenged.

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The numbers shall be near the bow, but how near is near? 

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the February broadsheet did indeed have a section on registration numbers -

Quote

Display of registration marks It is important that all vessels using the Broads display their registration marks in accordance with the Authority’s guidelines which are sent to every boat owner with their toll receipt. Registration marks are important because the Rangers use them to identify the vessel and check for correct toll and Boat Safety Scheme certificates. A mobile phone app, developed by students from the University of East Anglia, enables them to verify the information for every vessel as long as the registrations mark is present and clearly displayed. At the end of April the Rangers will be carrying out one of their two annual sweeps of the Broads waterways checking all vessels. They will issue notices of contravention for vessels that do not comply with the guidelines for the display of registration marks or have failed to pay the correct toll. We would like to keep the number of notices to a minimum so please check the details for your boat with the guidelines when they arrive. For guidance go to www.broadsauthority.gov.uk/display-ofregistration-marks or contact the tolls team on 01603 756080.

this also infers that guidelines have been sent out to toll payers, once again (as I dont own a boat, I would not know if this was actually done) I would suggest if this is not the case they cant enforce it.

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29 minutes ago, BroadAmbition said:

My initial salvo will be to administer a damn good ignoring session

Followed by a savage barrage of sulking building up to a grand finale of formation teddy throwing tactfully interspersed with dummy spitting...... :default_biggrin:

I'm waiting for a bo**ocking as my s/b numbers are badly faded, they are in the right place and the stickers issued by the BA in 2015 so not old, oddly it's the side that's always shaded that's faded, the ones almost permanently in sunlight look fine.

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3 minutes ago, grendel said:

the February broadsheet did indeed have a section on registration numbers -

this also infers that guidelines have been sent out to toll payers, once again (as I dont own a boat, I would not know if this was actually done) I would suggest if this is not the case they cant enforce it.

Guidance is well just guidance. They cannot prosecute on it. The Byelaws state very poorly where they should be placed.

I paid my toll online and got an email receipt. I did not get their guidance leaflet. Makes not a jot of difference to me. I know my boat complies with the vessel registration byelaws. They can issue guidance that I need to stick the registration numbers on my forehead and ar*e for all I care, they can jog on and if needed will see them in court. There are only four sets of byelaws on the website, they are the only ones that matter, no matter how poorly written the majority of them are.

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I would suggest that positioning within the guidelines stated

Quote

Where display of registration marks is required “on both bows and on the stern” (see overleaf) they must be displayed on each side of the hull of the vessel within approximately 2 metres of the bow so as to be clearly visible from other vessels or the bank, and on the stern of the vessel so as to be clearly visible from behind.

Registration marks must not be wholly or partially obscured by fenders or fender lanyards or by dinghies in davits etc. It may be necessary to repeat the marks to avoid this.

Registration marks must not be displayed on the superstructure, cabin sides or upper-works of a vessel or in cabin or wheelhouse windows.

on a vessel with a pronounced sheer at the bow, such as Broad Ambition has, would make them less visible that they are at present

I suggest that the above quote is just based upon their interpretation of the bylaws, and that a court of law might have a different opinion (on a case by case basis).

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1 hour ago, JanetAnne said:

The ranger told me that since  they have done away with the tax disc, it has become much harder to check boats out on the water. The quick glance of the right colour disc as you passed is now a read the number and enter it into the database etc.

He said that whereas they used to visually check all the boats that passed it is now down to one in ten, hence the keenness for fully visible numbers.

Oh, by the way, their super duper database that "is absolutely up to date as of 08.00 this morning when I left the office" wasn't !! :default_biggrin:

So to be clear, because the BA are NOT following their own byelaws and issuing a toll receipt that can be displayed on the boat and in a position dictated by the Byelaws, they want to bend their own Byelaws and issue non enforceable guidance to make some of us move our numbers to a position that suits them better even if they already comply with the vessel registration byelaw. Can see that making for a very entertaining court case. I have already been down part of this road with the BA solicitor who tied himself up in knots trying to justify how they were  bending the byelaws since the removal of the paper toll plaque.

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if you were to fit the numbers on the bow of an Elysian 27ft it would make them very difficult to see due to the overhang.

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10 minutes ago, grendel said:

I would suggest that positioning within the guidelines stated

on a vessel with a pronounced sheer at the bow, such as Broad Ambition has, would make them less visible that they are at present

I suggest that the above quote is just based upon their interpretation of the bylaws, and that a court of law might have a different opinion (on a case by case basis).

Correct, that guidance leaflet has a green section that refers back to the byelaws. It is very vague, but is the only bit that counts.

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They want them no more than1.2 m from the bow. Guidance says less than approximately 2m. 

Silly of me but if the guidance says approximately 2m, then they can want 1.2m all they like. Never going to happen.

Compliance is my profession they have no legs on which to stand. They have conflated a want with a need. Easily done with little to no oversight. 

 

M

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I submit that a lot of the day boats have the numbers on the superstructure of the boat, and a lot of hire boats have the numbers on the bow, further back than the 2m guidance, just to get the numbers away from the bow sheer and readable.

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So I had a nagging doubt having not looked at The Broads Authority Act 2009 for some time. Section 11 Byelaws for registration of vessels allows amongst other things for them to make byelaws for the registration of vessels in the navigation area.

Section 11 (3) dictates that they should keep a necessary register of those byelaws,

Section 11(4)(b) The byelaws may in particular-- make provision as to the display on registered vessels of registration documents or numbers;

Since no new byelaws have been created since the 1997 Vessel Registration Byelaws these still count. They can make new byelaws, but guidance leaflets are exactly that, guidance only.

I can sense a FOI request to ascertain how much of toll payers money has so far been spent on illegal enforcement of a guidance leaflet!

How much toll payers money was spent forcing the 2009 act through parliament and giving them selves some additional powers? At least they should use those powers correctly! If they want the reg marks in a certain place, then write the new byelaws before trying to enforce non existent ones.

 

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1 hour ago, EastCoastIPA said:

So to be clear, because the BA are NOT following their own byelaws and issuing a toll receipt that can be displayed on the boat and in a position dictated by the Byelaws, they want to bend their own Byelaws and issue non enforceable guidance to make some of us move our numbers to a position that suits them better even if they already comply with the vessel registration byelaw. Can see that making for a very entertaining court case. I have already been down part of this road with the BA solicitor who tied himself up in knots trying to justify how they were  bending the byelaws since the removal of the paper toll plaque.

That seems pretty accurate to me

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By the way, three of the dozen or so hire boats I drove past as I left Richardsons have their numbers on the rear superstructure rather than the transom as required by our attending ranger. Couldn't see any tickets though.

:default_biggrin:

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2 minutes ago, JanetAnne said:

By the way, three of the dozen or so hire boats I drove past as I left Richardsons have their numbers on the rear superstructure rather than the transom as required by our attending ranger. Couldn't see any tickets though.

:default_biggrin:

Thanks, that's the area where I'm in compliance with the 1997 Vessel Registration Byelaws, but not the guidance leaflet.

The BA in the document referred to above by Grendel also mentions it as guidance.

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As Malanka alluded to were stopped on an early trip out this season, by a Ranger who maintained that he could not see any numbers on the front of our boat. 

Here is a picture of the front of our boat showing the registration mark (excuse the black mark, we had been hit by just about the only other boat on the river in early April).

1530740134_PZregistration_!.jpg.4ba728d6619860fdf2b32760c4aa31fa.jpg


When I pointed the numbers out to the Ranger I was told it was very unusual for them to be amidships, and they would not think to look for them there, and we could expect trouble this year.  I was somewhat surprised by this as they were fitted here in 1965 -  we have seen a lot of BA rangers in the 16 years we’ve owned the boat and, whilst they may have said a lot of things, they have not apparently had trouble identifying the boat.  

Here she is a few years back

3846019_PZhamiltons_1.thumb.jpg.d7c7289aa81540b048743e76bb8786a0.jpg

 

2 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Sailing half deckers, such as Waveney One Designs and Yare & Bure One Designs, plus thousands of dinghies, have never displayed numbers, do they now have to? I have to on my kayaks but how unsightly it would look on a Broads One Design with their fore and aft overhangs!

I think this is exactly the issue – there are a lot of (I assume) registered boats which do not display registration marks at all, and I do have some sympathy with the BA trying to check that such boats are currently tolled, although the BA's guidance does allow small boats a different set of rules to follow.

From the Nav Com meeting 17th Jan 2019

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/1541740/NC-Minutes-nc170119-confirmed.pdf

Extracts from item 5/13

“Members were consulted on the Broads Authority’s current policy of the display of registration marks. The Head of Ranger Services explained that since the removal of paper toll plaques it was critical that vessels could be identified from the registration number displayed on the stern of the boat. She said that the Broads Authority had asked Rangers to enforce the requirement and that this had been published in the Broadsheet newsletter. 2018 was the first year that notices were being issued for non compliance of visible registration marks. The Head of Ranger Services said that Officers had had several meetings with the NSBA regarding issues raised over the guidance.”

“One member stressed the importance of face to face engagement with stakeholders to alleviate any concerns over the matter. She offered to accompany the Head of Ranger Services with these discussions. In general members were in support of Officers providing more time for compliance and recognised that the law was enforceable. Several members emphasised the Authority’s duty to enforce the byelaws and the boater’s responsibility to adhere to these regardless of personal preference. The Head of Ranger Services explained that if members agreed to the proposal, the process of checking for compliance would be started again from 1 April 2019 for those who had already received enforcement notices."

This seems to have opened the door to a campaign issuing notices to a larger number of craft, who might have always displayed marks, but not to the letter of BA’s prescribed guidelines – we have certainly not had a notice of non-compliance previously.

When I sought to clarify what might be acceptable with Ranger Services, considering the issue of maintaining the appearance of a traditional boat, and common sense, I was informed that if we would like to preserve the original location of our screw-on numbers, the BA would like us to hang duplicate numbers from the pulpit rail whenever the boat is on the water (they could supply paper numbers to us for this end).  They were concerned that the original numbers were 800-900mm to far from the stem to be acceptable to them, but they were happy to arrange a visit from a Ranger with a tape measure to confirm this.

The problem now is to decide whether to let it play out to court – and what effect that will have in disturbances to our enjoyment of the river this year/changes to the byelaws in future years.  Or whether to just comply and hang some numbers on the front, which will look lovely.  I’m currently resisting the urge to stick a 6ft arrow on each bow pointing to the number.

It’s a little thing and not what I expected to high up on the massive list of wooden boat ownership worries this year, and I’m sure to most it seems hugely petty, but…

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