Rangers On A Purge. ..

[JanetAnne]

Could I point out that BA was just one of a dozen boats ticketed at that location.  

The ranger whose name is on the notices was accompanied by a senior ranger who was keen to point out that he was the other chaps manager and supervising him for the day. The senior ranger came by car the junior by boat.

The senior ranger made his point regarding rear facing numbers quite forcefully.  He used a boat called Brookwind to illustrate his point. Her rear number is normally on the cabin rear and not the transom. He wanted the number on the transom and I believe she was ticketed though I didn't actually see him post it through her canopy. Brookwind is a 1940 woodie.

[JawsOrca]

Certainly an interesting thread and some really interesting points raised. 

My pennies worth are that I'd be doing what the byelaws state which are suitably vague an open to interruption on all sides. I'm sure that B.A's number is nearer to the bow than it is to the stern so therefore it's passed that test.  The guidance leaflet (https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/888263/Display-of-Registration-Marks-2017.pdf) is, in my opinion is just guidance and there's nothing in either, that I can see, which states that guidance becomes a byelaw.

Perhaps what the BA should have done was updating the byelaw as to contain whats in that guidance if they wanted to start to enforce that. It would certainly  be interesting to see what a judge would say if it went to court and indeed does make you wonder who's running the show at the BA as it certainly seems that there's more common sense in this thread than in the BA.

If I had one of these on the boat, I'd certainly get in contact with them and just point their attention to the byelaws and remind them that the are certainly near to the bow and nothing in the byelaw states otherwise, the guidance is just that.  

I'm looking forward to having a nosy at some of their boats though...

[grendel]

I cannot help but think that a lot of hire boats also display their reg number on the cabin at the stern, plus pictures I have seen of at least some day boats show their reg numbers on the cabin sides amidships. I will have to have a rough count when I am on the water next week

[Meantime]

Thank you Alan, you have just reminded me of something that has been niggling me all day and I couldn't put my finger on it.

I think everyone accepts that the bow of the boat is the forward part of the hull of a ship or boat. The byelaw states the registration marks should be near the bow. This would imply they should be near, BUT NOT on the bow, otherwise they would state that. They do state the marks should be ON the stern, not near the stern. The guidance leaflet doesn't clarify the byelaw, it completely contradicts the byelaw.

Broad Ambitions registration marks are not on the bow, they are plainly near the bow and in full compliance with the letter of the byelaw.

The other thing Alan reminded me is that in the very expensive Broads Authority Act 2009 obtained with a lot of toll payers money, they got the right to

(2) The Authority may make byelaws for the purpose of providing for the

registration of vessels in the navigation area or on adjacent waters, and for the

determination and recovery of tolls in respect of vessels moored, used or

navigated in the navigation area or on adjacent waters.

Not issue and try and enforce guidance leaflets. They got that right at our expense.

[Meantime]

22 minutes ago, JawsOrca said:

 

You know, with that picture the Authority may just have as much egg on it's face as when James was told he needed planning permission for his Yurts at the WRC and pointed out the massive tent they had erected without planning permission at the Thorpe dockyard.

[OldBerkshireBoy]

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/888263/Display-of-Registration-Marks-2017.pdf

Regarding causing damage when removing numbers it say`s they can be repeated in the above link.

[Meantime]

JPs been on the case already

[grendel]

6 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

You know, with that picture the Authority may just have as much egg on it's face as when James was told he needed planning permission for his Yurts at the WRC and pointed out the massive tent they had erected without planning permission at the Thorpe dockyard.

not to mention the fender line is partially obscuring the number

[dnks34]

Wonder if JP is familiar with the saying “come a cropper”.  If not he should look it up!!

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, JanetAnne said:

Her rear number is normally on the cabin rear and not the transom. He wanted the number on the transom and I believe she was ticketed though I didn't actually see him post it through her canopy. Brookwind is a 1940 woodie.

There is a certain logic in having the stern numbers on the cabin, namely that when moored stern-on the number will be more visible, especially from the shore. In the case of my Drascombe I have a raked transom and I'm more than happy for the numbers being there, it makes it harder for them to be seen!  I have a trail board above the transom, ideal and highly visible, but that is not where the guidelines tell me to locate them.

[JennyMorgan]

25 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

JPs been on the case already

Pathetic and pedantic. If I were the owner then I would play their game and put the numbers on the bow right against the stem.

[JennyMorgan]

39 minutes ago, OldBerkshireBoy said:

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/888263/Display-of-Registration-Marks-2017.pdf

Regarding causing damage when removing numbers it say`s they can be repeated in the above link.

It also says that the bow numbers can be within two metres of the stem. Griff, are BA's numbers on the cabin side that far back? 

[Meantime]

5 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

It also says that the bow numbers can be within two metres of the stem. Griff, are BA's numbers on the cabin side that far back? 

Peter, It's irrelevant that leaflet is for guidance only, it's not the byelaw. The picture above by the way is of a vessel owned by the BA. It was rather naughty of me to add the documents enclosed wallet, but I couldn't resist.

[JennyMorgan]

The numbers on the BA's SOB are arguably not 'near' the bow!

[marshman]

Eastcoast IPA - did you read Pallys post where he points out that the guidance notes should perhaps be read with the byelaws? In the past he has generally been known to be accurate in his interpretation of the legislation - but I am sure you are sufficiently confident of your view to test it??

I must admit I think this is a battle some could well stumble on and you should be mindful of which battles you chose to fight! The BA signalled over a year ago that there were going to pursue this policy and it seems to be reasonably sensible and generally acceptable to most users. Even the NSBA seem to have acquessed in general. I am sure if you are on any historic vessels register you might find a  way around certain bits if you can persuade the Rangers by talking to them rather than discussing them on an open Forum as some of you chose to do. They are only doing what they are told to do, and most Rangers I talk to, and thats a few, are genuinely nice people and only too keen to help.

Still its up to the individuals concerned and like last year, I suspect the vast majority who have received notices, will just get on and comply - no one is suggesting that Griff takes off his number from the cabin sides, just that he adds another nearer his bow - job done I guess. Seems easier and less stressful than fighting it out in court, perhaps to no avail. I suspect he will get little sympathy from the local beaks, or the ones I know!!

[JanetAnne]

Does Albion display registration numbers?

[marshman]

I believe discussions have taken place!

[JennyMorgan]

12 minutes ago, JanetAnne said:

Does Albion display registration numbers?

Her mast is colour coded!

[JanetAnne]

4 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Her mast is colour coded!

I hope that colour coding is within 2 metres of the bow?

[Meantime]

34 minutes ago, marshman said:

Eastcoast IPA - did you read Pallys post where he points out that the guidance notes should perhaps be read with the byelaws? In the past he has generally been known to be accurate in his interpretation of the legislation - but I am sure you are sufficiently confident of your view to test it??

Yes I did read Pally's post. I have a lot of time for Pally's posts and points of view and have often had sensible debates with him here and on other forums and we have communicated via PM on some subjects as well. Likewise we don't always agree 100% on each others point of view.

What's your thoughts on the picture of the BA works vessel which clearly does not comply with their own guidance?

[dnks34]

Taking into consideration the pictures shown of the BA’s own craft, I sincerely hope they drop it before it gets expensive. 

There will be someone out there prepared to put this to the test and we all know who that will ultimately end up costing.

They set themselves up for this by being so pedantic, its not like boats pass the patrol launches at 70 miles an hour is it......

 

[Meantime]

5 minutes ago, dnks34 said:

Taking into consideration the pictures shown of the BA’s own craft, I sincerely hope they drop it before it gets expensive. 

There will be someone out there prepared to put this to the test and we all know who that will ultimately end up costing.

They set themselves up for this by being so pedantic, its not like boats pass the patrol launches at 70 miles an hour is it......

 

I often browse other forums as well, you never know what you may learn. Did you know it takes 4.55 seconds for a 40ft boat to pass a fixed point at 6mph. If the boat is coming towards you then you have even longer to read the number on the bow. The rangers would probably have time to scan the bow for a number, write it down and make a cup of coffee  By all means go after the boats that don't have any numbers, or have defaced ones, or even worse have a fender line obscuring part of the number. Now who would do that?

[JennyMorgan]

On its own perhaps it's just a fairly minor storm in a teacup which with a bit of common sense could easily have been sorted. However, consider it with all the other minor and not so minor episodes then perhaps it does have legs so to speak. It is indicative of an unhealthy, unwelcome ethos within Yare House, the void is growing, and it's through no fault of ours!

[JennyMorgan]

23 minutes ago, dnks34 said:

They set themselves up for this by being so pedantic, its not like boats pass the patrol launches at 70 miles an hour is it......

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Meantime]

Wonder if JPs seen this?