Rangers On A Purge. ..

[JanetAnne]

What I saw Wednesday was about a dozen private boats issued with notices. The same two rangers then walked past three hire boats that had registration numbers incorrectly positioned as defined by the example given/explained  to me earlier (and detailed above ). Those boats were not issued notices.

There were about 10 hire dinghys moored in the slipway none of which have a number on them at all. Nothing to identify them in any way. They were also ignored.

Now I am happy to play by the rules but only when the rules apply to all. So far on this thread we have established that sailies have a special dispensation to hang their numbers from a bowsprit,  wherries seem to not need numbers at all, hire boats don't count and hire dinghys seem exempt. Oh yeah, and BA vessels are a law unto themselves where registration number s are concerned.

Now before I go sticking compliant numbers on my 31 foot of mahogany and varnish I feel perfectly justified in asking for the requirements in law rather than someone's interpretation of the guidelines.

I believe Broad Ambitions numbers to be within the spirit of the law as are Brookwind s, Chameleon's and as mine will be.

And that should be good enough or we need a proper defined bylaw.

[grendel]

Also they say it is to prevent confusion due to boat names being repeated, just how many Broad Ambitions are there?, I suppose it must be because Griff has disguised her by changing the mast.

I too disagree with the fact they are only enforcing the rules for some, and that they must enforce them for everyone or not at all.

[Paladin]

6 hours ago, JanetAnne said:

What I saw Wednesday was about a dozen private boats issued with notices. The same two rangers then walked past three hire boats that had registration numbers incorrectly positioned as defined by the example given/explained  to me earlier (and detailed above ). Those boats were not issued notices.

There were about 10 hire dinghys moored in the slipway none of which have a number on them at all. Nothing to identify them in any way. They were also ignored.

Now I am happy to play by the rules but only when the rules apply to all. So far on this thread we have established that sailies have a special dispensation to hang their numbers from a bowsprit,  wherries seem to not need numbers at all, hire boats don't count and hire dinghys seem exempt. Oh yeah, and BA vessels are a law unto themselves where registration number s are concerned.

Now before I go sticking compliant numbers on my 31 foot of mahogany and varnish I feel perfectly justified in asking for the requirements in law rather than someone's interpretation of the guidelines.

I believe Broad Ambitions numbers to be within the spirit of the law as are Brookwind s, Chameleon's and as mine will be.

And that should be good enough or we need a proper defined bylaw.

Has anyone here actually asked the BA about this, or is it just a matter of BA bashing? The change in policy has been well trailed and explained. 

As for hire boats getting different treatment, private owners live all over the country and the most effective way of bringing any alleged contravention to their attention is by a notice on the vessel. All the hire boats are owned by local firms, and the easiest way of ensuring compliance is by communication with the companies, not by affixing a notice to the vessel when it is in the hands of a hirer, who might well just throw the notice away.

I look forward with interest to see the results of all this, when the ‘rebels’ take their principles to the court, for clarification.

[Paladin]

1 hour ago, grendel said:

Also they say it is to prevent confusion due to boat names being repeated, just how many Broad Ambitions are there?, I suppose it must be because Griff has disguised her by changing the mast.

I too disagree with the fact they are only enforcing the rules for some, and that they must enforce them for everyone or not at all.

Do you expect the rangers to go through the database and only issue contravention notices to those vessels the name of which has been used on other vessels? I fail to see why Broad Ambition should be picked out for special treatment, either for extra attention, or exemption. It’s a boat!

[Vaughan]

"In my day",   registration numbers were for motorised vessels only. So Albion carries no numbers (and neither did Evening Flight) as she has no auxiliary engine. Her dinghy, however, needs reg. numbers if the outboard motor is fitted.

Does this rule still apply? I have certainly never seen a rowing or sailing dinghy with Broads numbers although they did require a river toll disc.

[JanetAnne]

19 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

"In my day",   registration numbers were for motorised vessels only. So Albion carries no numbers (and neither did Evening Flight) as she has no auxiliary engine. Her dinghy, however, needs reg. numbers if the outboard motor is fitted.

Does this rule still apply? I have certainly never seen a rowing or sailing dinghy with Broads numbers although they did require a river toll disc.

Last season I was requested to display the number on my dinghy by a ranger.

Maybe with the toll disc no longer offered they will need identification on small craft?

[JanetAnne]

1 hour ago, Paladin said:

Has anyone here actually asked the BA about this, or is it just a matter of BA bashing? The change in policy has been well trailed and explained. 

Yes I will be talking to the BA.

However, discussion on these threads will normally provide reliable knowledge with which to form a reasoned argument.

It is rare for the appropriate legislation to not come to light (through people such as yourself) but I feel, in this case, such legislation has not provided a definitive answer.  

[Paladin]

On 08/05/2019 at 23:07, BroadAmbition said:

Well according to the regs I read, 'B.A's 'Bow' reg numbers are not compliant.

However they are in the exact location that Jack Powels first put them on in 1966.  That's fifty three years ok until now.  I have no intention of changing that particular piece of history where our 'B.A' is concerned, not to mention the mess / scarring that would result thereof.  I have much better things to waste my time on  - I can see a a tantrum / hissy fit on its way

Griff

On 08/05/2019 at 23:07, BroadAmbition said:

 

As an exercise, I have been trying to assess the evidence which may be put forward to support a prosecution and that which might be used by the defence. I came across the attached photo of the boat before it was renamed, from 2006, which rather defeats the suggestion that the registration marks currently displayed are in the original position (I would attribute the copyright holder, but I don't know who that is - the photo was published on NBF).

[Paladin]

5 minutes ago, JanetAnne said:

Yes I will be talking to the BA.

However, discussion on these threads will normally provide reliable knowledge with which to form a reasoned argument.

It is rare for the appropriate legislation to not come to light (through people such as yourself) but I feel, in this case, such legislation has not provided a definitive answer.  

Thank you. I am very interested in the outcome.

[marshman]

Vaughan - yes dinghies need them - see guidance notes for details!

There will always be some boats that need a discussion so if you believe that applies to you, discuss it with as Ranger but you do have to be sensible I guess - I suspect its not a lot of good saying it wasn't like this 50 years ago and neither is it a lot of good of good putting numbers on a push tug, just where you make contact!

It seems to me that all they are trying to do is to reduce the number of anomalies - neither are they going to issue notices or threaten prosecution to every offender! Is it what happens on the roads? Everyone speeding should get a ticket but that doesnt actually happen does it?

[ChrisB]

I always thought the E Type sailed close to the wind, along with many other performance cars of their day.

 

[Meantime]

22 minutes ago, Paladin said:

As an exercise, I have been trying to assess the evidence which may be put forward to support a prosecution and that which might be used by the defence. I came across the attached photo of the boat before it was renamed, from 2006, which rather defeats the suggestion that the registration marks currently displayed are in the original position (I would attribute the copyright holder, but I don't know who that is - the photo was published on NBF).

It would be interesting to see two lines drawn on that picture. One that shows where most people would consider the bow to end or start which ever way you want to look at it, and a second showing the area that people would consider to be near the bow section as shown by the first line.

Remember the byelaws state near the bow and on the stern. The picture in the guidance leaflet clearly shows the reg marks on the bow. If that was where they were meant to be, why didn't the byelaws state that?

[rightsaidfred]

I believe this link clearly defines what is required and what is not permitted, in the picture above I would think the numbers fall within the 2mtr limit.

www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/888263/Display-of-Registration-Marks-2017.pdf

for some reason the link didn't work so I have copied the relevant part below with main points highlighted

Fred

Display Where display of registration marks is required “on both bows and on the stern” (see overleaf) they must be displayed on each side of the hull of the vessel within approximately 2 metres of the bow so as to be clearly visible from other vessels or the bank, and on the stern of the vessel so as to be clearly visible from behind.
Registration marks must not be wholly or partially obscured by fenders or fender lanyards or by dinghies in davits etc. It may be necessary to repeat the marks to avoid this.
Registration marks must not be displayed on the superstructure, cabin sides or upper-works of a vessel or in cabin or wheelhouse windows.
Yachts may display registration marks on a board securely suspended beneath the bowspit, visible both sides.
Vessels with permanent guard rails round the deck edge may display registration marks on boards securely mounted on the guard rails near the bow.
Where the registration mark is obscured by a protective cover (whether temporary or permanent) the cover must carry a facsimile of the registration mark clearly visible from both sides of the vessel

Edited May 11, 2019 by rightsaidfred
failed link

[BroadAmbition]

I’m not in a position right now to find the original photo’s of  Star Supreme 1 circa 1966 as they are on my home Pc and I’m in Winchester for the weekend. 

The previous owners to us put the ref numbers along with the ‘Ivy Lady’ name where you see them in Paladin photo. I researched early photo’s and put the numbers where Jack put them originally. If head put them on the hull near to the name, then so would I have done. 

Griff

[marshman]

I have no axe at all to grind with Griff- indeed I like the guy and have a lot of time for what they have done but if that photo is accurate, it shows exactly why the BA are pursuing the exercise! All they are after is that most boats comply with the requirements even if over the years they have changed a bit.

With respect, though, I doubt he will get a lot of sympathy with suggesting that was how it was done originally. I am sure he has changed an awful lot within the boat from what was there all those years ago, so in fact its a restoration, but not quite back to the original, just as close as possible. By all means keep the ones on the cabin sides but perhaps all they are suggesting is you put them on the bow as well. With that in mind........

 

 

 

 

[Meantime]

20 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

I believe this link clearly defines what is required and what is not permitted, in the picture above I would think the numbers fall within the 2mtr limit.

www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/888263/Display-of-Registration-Marks-2017.pdf

for some reason the link didn't work so I have copied the relevant part below with main points highlighted

Fred

Display Where display of registration marks is required “on both bows and on the stern” (see overleaf) they must be displayed on each side of the hull of the vessel within approximately 2 metres of the bow so as to be clearly visible from other vessels or the bank, and on the stern of the vessel so as to be clearly visible from behind.
Registration marks must not be wholly or partially obscured by fenders or fender lanyards or by dinghies in davits etc. It may be necessary to repeat the marks to avoid this.
Registration marks must not be displayed on the superstructure, cabin sides or upper-works of a vessel or in cabin or wheelhouse windows.
Yachts may display registration marks on a board securely suspended beneath the bowspit, visible both sides.
Vessels with permanent guard rails round the deck edge may display registration marks on boards securely mounted on the guard rails near the bow.
Where the registration mark is obscured by a protective cover (whether temporary or permanent) the cover must carry a facsimile of the registration mark clearly visible from both sides of the vessel

Fred, pure and simply that is a guidance leaflet, NOT the byelaw.

The four sets of byelaws can be found here

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/boating/navigating-the-broads/byelaws-and-speed-limits

The pertinent one is the Vessel Registration Byelaws in particular section 16 which I have copied below for you

Display of Marks16 No person shall moor, use or navigate a vessel on waters within the navigation area or cause or permit a vessel to be so moored, used or navigated unless the current registration mark issued by the Authority in respect of the vessel is conspicuously displayed at all times on both sides of the vessel near the bow and on the stern of the vessel.

As I have already pointed out, the guidance leaflet is in contradiction with the byelaw by showing a picture of the reg mark ON not NEAR the bow

[rightsaidfred]

16 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Fred, pure and simply that is a guidance leaflet, NOT the byelaw.

The four sets of byelaws can be found here

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/boating/navigating-the-broads/byelaws-and-speed-limits

The pertinent one is the Vessel Registration Byelaws in particular section 16 which I have copied below for you

Display of Marks16 No person shall moor, use or navigate a vessel on waters within the navigation area or cause or permit a vessel to be so moored, used or navigated unless the current registration mark issued by the Authority in respect of the vessel is conspicuously displayed at all times on both sides of the vessel near the bow and on the stern of the vessel.

As I have already pointed out, the guidance leaflet is in contradiction with the byelaw by showing a picture of the reg mark ON not NEAR the bow

Do I take it then that you also ignore or treat as irrelevant the guidance notes that are provided with income tax returns, applications for planning or probate etc etc. guidance notes are there to explain and define what`s required for compliance they are not intended to replace the relevant regulation.

Fred

[Meantime]

As a point of interest, the vessel registration byelaws have not been updated since they were published and represent a level playing field.

How many people are aware that the "guidance" leaflet Display of Registration Marks has been updated or changed twice that I know of in the last four years? This clearly bypasses using the proper legislative framework which is in place to update or create new byelaws. Someone mention transparency? Being allowed to change guidance leaflets at the drop of a hat, and then trying to use that leaflet to pursue prosecutions is dangerous territory I would suggest.

I'm not a judge, but I think I would be asking why if it is so important to the BA, they don't use the proper channels open to them, gained at toll payers money in the 2009 act, to amend the byelaw to more correctly and accurately reflect where they want to see the registration marks. There could be no argument then and even claims of historical usage wouldn't hold water if the byelaw was updated and properly published.

 

[JawsOrca]

9 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Do I take it then that you also ignore or treat as irrelevant the guidance notes that are provided with income tax returns, applications for planning or probate etc etc. guidance notes are there to explain and define what`s required for compliance they are not intended to replace the relevant regulation.

Fred

Fred, I don't much about the notes you've mentioned here, although I suspect such are just more details to expand on the law to assist you in adhering to these, the law themselves will be quite complicated written in  legal jargon but the guidance offered is just a plain english written version which helps us plebs understand it (if you catch me).

The byelaw for this registration number (thing) is very simple there's nothing that can be expanded on. The guidance note therefore is trying to be in addition to the byelaw and sadly in this case (in my opinion) has no legal standing.  (Personally, I have followed this notice and Orca is within this guidance but I'm not going to jump at every guidance note the BA issue if they can't be bothered to put it into byelaws) 

Don't forget one can only police whats written in law. A police officer can guide you and ask you to do something but unless it's written in law you can politely ignore.  It's the whole point of the legal system. 

[Poppy]

20 hours ago, Paladin said:

That is not a fact, it is your opinion, which, in my opinion, is mistaken.

Bye Law 19 says:

No person shall moor, use or navigate a vessel on waters within the navigation area or cause or permit
a vessel to be so moored, used or navigated unless:
(1) ...
(2) any toll receipt issued by the Authority in respect of the period which includes that mooring, use or navigation of
the vessel is displayed on the vessel in such conspicuous position as the Authority shall determine.

 

I have a 'toll receipt' for the current period. It's printed on an A4 size sheet of paper.

Where should I display it ? 

[Poppy]

14 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

The numbers on the BA's SOB are arguably not 'near' the bow!

Not on a part of the boat that could be described as 'the hull' either.

[ranworthbreeze]

7 minutes ago, Poppy said:

I have a 'toll receipt' for the current period. It's printed on an A4 size sheet of paper.

Where should I display it ? 

Hi Poppy, I doubt you will get many suggestions of where to display it, but plenty of suggestions of where to stick it

Regards

Alan

[grendel]

I think that photo of Ivy Lady also highlights the problem of putting the numbers at that location, ie at the point on the bow with the greatest sheer, at this position and as indicated in the photo they are clear  - when viewed from about water level at a distance of about 15 foot, even at this angle the numbers are distorted by perspective and the angle of the sheer. from a position higher up (from the bank or another boat) the angle of the sheer will just make this number less easy to read - a direct contravention of the  part in the guidelines that says

Quote

so as to be clearly visible from other vessels or the bank

or the bylaw that requires it to be conspicuously displayed.

in similar cases with the transoms of sailing boats the guidelines allow for some degree of re positioning to make the number conspicuous, which is arguably the reason Broad Ambition has them on the cabin side.

[dnks34]

Taken to the letter of the byelaws the Broads Authority are yet again on a hiding to nothing. 

Broad Ambition is conspicuously displaying its Reg numbers, THE END!!! 

[Islander]

16 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

The numbers on the BA's SOB are arguably not 'near' the bow!

Maybe the BA should get their own house in order before they pick on the little people.

Are SOB's reg marks the correct size?  Hard to tell in the picture.

If it was just the wrong ink then why didn't they make the printers correct it?

The system worked fine. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Colin 

Back to the rubbing down. Hope it stays dry.