Co Alarm Upgrade Surprise

[Paul]

6 hours ago, TheQ said:

It is perfectly legal to do you own gas work on your own house or boat, however if you are not competent, you are even more liable.. and even more of an idiot..

Err.... Wrong, for houses at least. We have already established that pleasure craft on inland waters not hired or loaned or used as permanent or temporary residences are excluded. A valid point has been raised about what consitutes a temporary residence, an overnight stay, a week, two weeks, a month?

The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations do indeed state "competent person", but then in the Code of Practice defines competent person as 

(a) a person who has successfully completed an industry recognised training course followed by assessment of competence. Training that leads to assessment of competence in safe gas work should be recognised by the industry’s standards setting body; or (b) in the case of a currently or previously registered person, where they have proved competence through a certification scheme;

furthermore in the guidance notes it states 

83 Anyone who does work on a gas fitting or gas storage vessel must be competent to do so (whether or not they are required to be a member of an approved class of persons). Therefore, do-it-yourself gas engineers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all need to have the required competence. The level and range of competence should match the full extent of work done, but needs only to be sufficient for and relevant to that work.

The regulations do not refer to the Gas Safe Register directly as it did not exist at the time they were written and could be replaced (as CORGI was itself replaced by Gas Safe). It refers to the industry standard setting body which currently is the Gas Safe Register, operated by CGRAS under license from the HSE. It was appointed on a ten year contract in 2008 with a five year extension in 2018.

It is also not permitted for a non competent person to install gas fittings or appliances and have them certified by someone who is competent. In this case both the person making the fitting and the person certifying it are breaking the law. 

 

[TheQ]

1 That's a code of practice not law,

2 The gas safe regulations (or what ever they want to call them) are for people working on other peoples property, as put out by Capita a company with a poor reputation running the Gas safe register to make money.

3 if you seriously think every engineer with his apprentice /s is going to do all the work himself with them just watching, you are very misguided..

[Paul]

Sorry TheQ, but you need to stop repeating these inaccuracies, as somebody, someday might get taken in by them.

1) Totally Incorrect.The code pf practice and guidelines laid out in the Gas Safety (Installation & Use) Regulations form part of the regulations themselves and are written into statutory law. 

2) Totally incorrect again. See section 83 above, I emboldened it to make it easier to read but I shall try and make it easier to understand. "DIY gas engineers and those performing favours for friends or relatives all need to have the required competence", ie must have completed appropriate training and proper assesment, at least in the area of work they are undertaking. When you look at the Gas Safe register you will see it quotes different types of work for which the engineer has been assessed. If you wish to fit, or work on a boiler beyond that maintenance which the manufacturer deems safe for the end user, then you must be competent to do so, and in terms of these regulations competent means qualified, as shown is sections a and b above

3) Not sure what relevence there is to that point, but as you refer to apprentice then that individual would be considered to be undertaking training toward a Gas Safe approved certificate anyway .....

I guess the best test would be for you to get youself blown up by DIY gas work, and then see what happens in court. I doubt that you would have a leg to stand on, possibly quite literally if you were to close to the bang!

[RumPunch]

The relevant phrase from The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) (Amendment) Regulations 2018 2(5)(c)  is ' nothing in these regulations shall apply to.... ' private leisure craft

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l56.pdf

Page 16

 

[Paul]

22 minutes ago, RumPunch said:

The relevant phrase from The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) (Amendment) Regulations 2018 2(5)(c)  is ' nothing in these regulations shall apply to.... ' private leisure craft

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l56.pdf

Page 16

 

I think we've already established that, although the phrase private leisure craft does not appear in the regs, it is fair to say that such a boat is not subject to the GSIUR, unless of course it is used as a primary residence, so liveaboards would need to comply. 

[RumPunch]

Just checking

So back to where I started the thread, I 'm surprised how effective both my new CO detector is AND how well the cooker responded to a ( not illegal ) service

[Paul]

Bottled gas often contains more moisture than mains gas so......

Hang on, I already said that. Let's not start again ....

One thing I haven't been able to get a difinitive answer to, and what led me to start all my research into the Gas Regs is whether the end user, ie me, can remove a cooker which is on a bayonet fixing, then reconnect it to another bayonet fixing at a new location. Gas Safe say I can't but have failed to point out where in all the regs it says not. 

[grendel]

the cooker salesman will tell you that you cant too, but I presume the delivery driver must be competent as they can (ie they have been trained to plug in a bayonet fitting), I think the bayonet fitting is a user useable connection, connecting the hose at the cooker end on the other hand, probably isnt. either way they have got you and can sting you for a connection charge.

[grendel]

from the hse gas documentation - http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/landlords/141114-responsibility-disconnecting-reconnecting.pdf

you can disconnect and reconnect an existing cooker- eg for cleaning, however if its a new cooker you cannot as the new appliance needs to be tested for leaks - eg where the new gas hose is connected at the cooker end. from the looks of it if you bought a second hand cooker with the hose already connected you would be ok, you might still want to get the new cooker tested though.

[Siddy]

When I did my gas, the card issued was issued under the company I worked for and was told during the course that I wasn't to touch anything unless it was for work, 'no you can't service your own gas fire' well that stop my Saturday morning back pocket money I planned on doing.

Under this I had 8 boilers to do twice a year which in my eyes wasn't enough to keep my hand in, on the back of doing the test the company wanted me to be responsible for other gas contractor we used down south. 1 I didn't know them 2 let's talk money - it didn't happen. It would have been me in court with HSE if anything went wrong.

Reading Grens info it looks the same where you can disconnect/reconnect the bayonet but you can't connect the other end to the cooker. Leak spray required.

One of the weekly checks on the narrowboats was check the drain holes on the gas locker at water level.

[TheQ]

On ‎05‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 19:44, Paul said:

 

You really must stop quoting inaccuracies, I suggest you read this document from the HSE, page 5. (yes it's old quoting Corgi not gas safe).  you are allowed to diy yourself

[TheQ]

23 hours ago, Paul said:

Sorry TheQ, but you need to stop repeating these inaccuracies, as somebody, someday might get taken in by them.

1) Totally Incorrect.The code pf practice and guidelines laid out in the Gas Safety (Installation & Use) Regulations form part of the regulations themselves and are written into statutory law. 

2) Totally incorrect again. See section 83 above, I emboldened it to make it easier to read but I shall try and make it easier to understand. "DIY gas engineers and those performing favours for friends or relatives all need to have the required competence", ie must have completed appropriate training and proper assesment, at least in the area of work they are undertaking. When you look at the Gas Safe register you will see it quotes different types of work for which the engineer has been assessed. If you wish to fit, or work on a boiler beyond that maintenance which the manufacturer deems safe for the end user, then you must be competent to do so, and in terms of these regulations competent means qualified, as shown is sections a and b above

3) Not sure what relevence there is to that point, but as you refer to apprentice then that individual would be considered to be undertaking training toward a Gas Safe approved certificate anyway .....

I guess the best test would be for you to get youself blown up by DIY gas work, and then see what happens in court. I doubt that you would have a leg to stand on, possibly quite literally if you were to close to the bang!

Considering I used to change 1000psi Gas pipes safely at Bacton, 30mbar is not a problem..

[TheQ]

11 minutes ago, TheQ said:

You really must stop quoting inaccuracies, I suggest you read this document from the HSE, page 5. (yes it's old quoting Corgi not gas safe).  you are allowed to diy yourself

opps the link went missing..

www.hse.gov.uk/consult/disdocs/dde14a.pdf

[Paul]

1 hour ago, TheQ said:

Considering I used to change 1000psi Gas pipes safely at Bacton, 30mbar is not a problem..

Which would not be work subject to the Gas Safety Regs, and your link is to a discussion document, is that what you intended? Unlike the earlier quotes which are taken directly from the Regulations as they are written in law, a discussion document has no legal standing, as far as I am aware.

[grendel]

what about my link above to the HSE interpretation that states disconnecting and reconnecting a bayonet gas fitting is not classed as gas work, that at least seems pretty clear, so I suppose its down to the definition of gas work, for example is cleaning the jets on a cooker gas work, or cleaning, I know my mum takes the burners off her gas cooker when she cleans them (or the part that disperses the flame around the bottom of the pan at least, so the question becomes at which point does cleaning become 'gas work' that would become an interpretation of the regs rather than a law. and similarly when it comes to competence, one could say that competence in high pressure gas piping gives competence at lower pressures also, as these competencies are usually hieratical.

[TheQ]

25 minutes ago, Paul said:

Which would not be work subject to the Gas Safety Regs, and your link is to a discussion document, is that what you intended? Unlike the earlier quotes which are taken directly from the Regulations as they are written in law, a discussion document has no legal standing, as far as I am aware.

read the statement about DIY work on page 5 that is a statement by HSE not a discussion.

[grendel]

just a thought in that in the event of an incident, it is the HSE that would investigate and determine whether something was being done within the bounds of the regulations, so while an HSE discussion document does not have status in the law, the guidance it provides gives an indication on whether they would rule that work was or was not being done under the regulations, if work is being done that is not deemed to be covered by the regulations, then no matter what the regulations say, it is not unlawful.

it may be a fine point but the hse's interpretation is the thing that defines whether the law applies.

for instance - you have a gas bottle onboard your boat, the gas runs out - you are allowed to change the bottle for a new one, you dont need to be gas registered to do that - now, you wish to change the gas bottle to a cheaper supplier, this involves changing the regulator on the rubber hose, which is a push fit with a jubilee clip, is this deemed as gas work?

[grendel]

I have just found the below on a current DIY advice website 

Quote

DIY and Gas Installation

In answer to the hundreds of questions we get about DIY gas installation we can state the following.

There is no law to say you cannot do a gas installation yourself providing (under the law) you are competent.

Competent, in this situation however, means you are able to check your installation for any variance in gas pressure from before and after an installation together with a complete understanding of how to check any fitting and/or appliance for leaks that could cause explosions and unwanted or dangerous emissions such as carbon monoxide.

This use of the word "competent" disqualifies most home owners or tenants from DIY gas fitting and any form of gas work and furthermore, without an engineers safety certificate it is almost certain that your home insurance would not pay out in the event of anything going wrong.

According to the Gas Safe Register site the only gas work you are allowed to carry out yourself is that which is stated in the user instructions that accompany a given appliance e.g. a new cooker, boiler etc…. Outside of what is stated in the user instructions should not be touched or attempted by the home owner.

Also stated is that you (the homeowner) should not carry out any work that results in the disturbance of a gas carrying or supply component e.g. a gas supply pipe.

I think this makes the situation perfectly clear, providing you are competent you can do your own gas works.

[Paul]

1 hour ago, grendel said:

I think this makes the situation perfectly clear, providing you are competent you can do your own gas works.

Not really, as the last comment that you quoted is 

 

1 hour ago, grendel said:

Also stated is that you (the homeowner) should not carry out any work that results in the disturbance of a gas carrying or supply component e.g. a gas supply pipe.

The statement "providing you are competent you can do your own gas works" is quite correct, but remember that the GSIUR specifies what constitutes competent. It is not just being able to demonstrate that you know how to make a joint, or that you understand which pipe goes where, or that you know how to pressure test a system, check it for leaks etc. It requires you to have undertaken industry standard training and assessment of competence BEFORE undertaking any such works.

You are then a "competent person"

 

 

[BroadAmbition]

Paul - But is that guide lines or the law?

Griff

[BroadAmbition]

Anyroadup, I have just bubble tested ‘B.A’s onboard gas system. 

Passed 

Griff

[Paul]

31 minutes ago, BroadAmbition said:

Paul - But is that guide lines or the law?

Griff

The regulatory document consists of the regulations for each of which there are ACOP (codes of practice) and further explanation by way of guidelines. All are part of the Regulations, and all are law.

But the Regulation doesn't cover BA, so carry on and keep calm.