Thorpe Green Gunboat

[BuffaloBill]

Regarding 'The Green'.........We moored there 3 weeks ago but did find it

strictly hard work due to the amount of dingy's tied to the bank and they

were all over the place leaving very little room to moor up. One was even

chained and had a lock fitted despite the fact that it appeared not to have

been moved in a long time. I thought that there was supposed to be a set

area for the dingy's?

Sorry for going off track but felt it needed saying.

[marshman]

Hi Vaughan - noted!!  I see no reason why it should not be maintained if it required it - does it need it? 

That boat does not impede navigation so the view will be, I guess to leave it until it does! Way way back in my mind I seem to recall that councils used to have problems removing old and abandoned cars, and they used to litter our streets - it required a change of legislation to enable them to do it more efficiently as now. I suspect it is  all about a question of ownership and who to bill!!

[Vaughan]

14 minutes ago, marshman said:

That boat does not impede navigation so the view will be, I guess to leave it until it does!

As far as I have always known it, a boat moored illegally, or for too long, can be difficult, indeed impossible, to remove and sometimes the law has to be updated in order to do so. Once a boat sinks in a tidal navigation, however, it is at once an "obstruction" to that navigation and must be removed. Costs can always be recovered from the owner (if possible) later.

I am sure MM and others will remember the awful graveyard of old hire boats which existed on the bank upstream of Stokesby in the 1970s and this is exactly what happened there. The Commissioners were powerless to remove them until they actually sank in the navigation.

Incidentally, most of those boats were bought cheap as an investment which never happened, after the fleet was sold off when Jenners closed down in Thorpe.

I still regard the behaviour of the BA planning department over the Jenners saga to be disgraceful and I am afraid this sunken wreck still suggests to me that there is one law in Thorpe for those on one side of the river, but quite another for those on the other side.

[Stationerystill]

Vaughan. The Town Council have not stopped public access to the staithe. It is free to moor for 24 hours just as it was when leased to the Broads Authority. It is not used very much which is why the B.A. would not continue leasing it. The modern boats are larger and many cannot get under the bridges. This is a source of regret as the Town Council is trying to encourage more use of the river.

[NorfolkNog]

The bridges can be a problem although there is reasonable clearance at low tide - the difficulty is that the unwary can easily get trapped on a rising tide! I remember seeing a brand new Richardsons boat scraping under the bridge near the Rushcutters to get out. BB is right, dinghies can be a problem  as they do tend to be spaced out. We moored there in February and it wasn't too bad although we didn't have a lot of space. I suppose to be fair they don't expect many boats to moor there although it would be helpful if they squeezed up a bit! I'm not sure if the Buck is closed at the moment, it was very good when we went in. It is a lovely spot and worth encouraging folk to visit.

[Vaughan]

7 hours ago, Stationerystill said:

Vaughan. The Town Council have not stopped public access to the staithe. It is free to moor for 24 hours just as it was when leased to the Broads Authority. It is not used very much which is why the B.A. would not continue leasing it. The modern boats are larger and many cannot get under the bridges. This is a source of regret as the Town Council is trying to encourage more use of the river.

Malcolm I appreciate what you say but we are not talking about the same thing.  What the council have closed off is the legal and ancient right to access from the river bank at the staithe, to the A47 trunk road beside it.  They have thus prevented the landing of any sort of cargo on that staithe and have effectively prevented Roger Wood from carrying on a boatyard business on the island, where it has existed ever since the island was created by the railway in 1844.  They have thus also prevented the legal residents of the island moorings from their own access to that staithe, other than by dinghy.  Compare the situation at Potter Heigham.  The residents of the chalets along the river bank all have access to the staithe, to load their affairs into a boat, from their vehicles.  Roger has been denied that right although, as a resident of the island, with planning permission, there is a legal obligation to give  him access to a trunk road. This is the case for any home owner but it is yet another piece of law that the BA and the town council have simply glossed over. 

What the town council are offering is simply a free overnight mooring on the green.  This is just the same as St Benets, where  the BA maintain a length of overnight moorings on the bank, but it is not a public staithe.  Neither is How Hill and nor are several others.  The Bure is still a navigation at St Benets however, as it leads to several other staithes further upstream and this is the big difference.

If the staithe in Thorpe is closed off, the BA could easily argue that navigation upriver to Norwich now goes by the Back Reach on the other side of the island and so Thorpe Reach, the old main river, is no longer a navigation as it no longer leads to a staithe.  So the BA, as the "navigation" authority, are no longer obliged to maintain it.

Unless the town council intend to maintain the river, as well as the moorings?  Somehow I doubt that!  This is the "nasty smell in the woodshed" that I have been warning of, ever since I joined this forum.

[Vaughan]

On 29/07/2019 at 09:42, grendel said:

 

the topic mentioned above is here -

 

 

 

This photo is a good example of what I am trying to explain. Here you see Hearts Cruisers boatyard business in operation, with customers and staff being ferried across from the public staithe, where they had access from the road to park their cars whilst unloading. The cars were then parked for the week, elsewhere in Thorpe. All supplies for the boatyard were delivered to the staithe, as the railway on the other side means that this is the only public access to Hart's Island.

[marshman]

I doubt it is a trunk road anymore - its the A1242!

As to whether its a public staithe or not, is IMHO not very relevant to the navigation - I really don't think that the BA check to see if there is a "legal" staithe or not before deciding whether to dredge or not. I do not profess at all to be a legal expert, but the "legal" status of many staithes is convoluted in the extreme and often lost in the mists of time and no one, least of all the BA, are going to to take action to establish the legality of a "staithe". Many have already been "lost" and indeed are no longer accessible, and others merged into peoples gardens without authority and whilst it is of historical interest, not sure how relevant it is to the navigation issue in a place such as Thorpe.

But Vaughan, perhaps you are right that this a real issue, but somehow I doubt it.

[Vaughan]

28 minutes ago, marshman said:

But Vaughan, perhaps you are right that this a real issue, but somehow I doubt it.

I served on the committee of the Broads Society with Roy Kemp, in the days when we were campaigning, with success, to re-open old staithes and thus keep their navigations open.

Navigable rivers are highways, just like roads and they need to have a destination, just like roads, otherwise there is no longer a need to keep them open. If we want to continue to navigate the Broads as we know them today then we have to fight for them.

I can assure you that staithes and navigation on the Broads are indivisibly linked.

[Vaughan]

37 minutes ago, marshman said:

doubt it is a trunk road anymore - its the A1242!

But it leads to a trunk road in planning law. Despite your semantics.

[C.Ricko]

Morning flight was moved because it was constantly sinking, it sat on a mud berth which was dredged as an experiment due to the mercury levels in the mud.  the maintenance on the boat was not worth while and she took up space from which the hire fleet could be run. 

as it happens the yard was not viable due to the lack of car park and the hassle of ferrying everything  to and from the staithe. the diesel delivery in particular was a worry and we didn't think that the delivery hose over the river could be ignored much longer. 

Personally I loved being sent over there to work, the place had a lovely feel to it but it was a way of life more than a business. 

[rightsaidfred]

3 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I served on the committee of the Broads Society with Roy Kemp, in the days when we were campaigning, with success, to re-open old staithes and thus keep their navigations open.

Navigable rivers are highways, just like roads and they need to have a destination, just like roads, otherwise there is no longer a need to keep them open. If we want to continue to navigate the Broads as we know them today then we have to fight for them.

I can assure you that staithes and navigation on the Broads are indivisibly linked.

While I have very little knowledge of the legalities regarding staithes I doubt it has much bearing on the status of navigation here, all tidal waters in particular rivers have the status of navigable waters and as such the BA have a duty to maintain it regardless of land access

Fred

[grendel]

but what about the staithes above the extents of tidal waters, do you want those maintained too , eg catfield dyke, the rivers through wroxham and up to Coltishall, if you limit it to tidal waters, a lot of the prettiest scenery will be lost.

[rightsaidfred]

Yes I would like them all maintained obviously, my comment was specifically in regard to the situation at Thorpe, talking of which following on from BuffaloBills observation while I do not have any issue with people living on boats some of those living there do not help themselves.

Fred

[Islander]

Glad to see you said some of those Fred. The issue with the boats is both the BA's and councils fault as Roger wanted to install our own ferry. Secondly not all the boats belong to our part of the island. A couple belong to people in houses opposite and then there is all the 'Pub and Paddle' canoes, the Canoeman's boats, Thorpe island boat hire boats plus all the visiting day boats and that's before those that want to moor an rc45 arrive, so please before you blame everything on the few that live on the island have a closer look at the boats tied up there. Sorry if I seem a bit ticked off but we are fed up with taking the blame for everything that happens in Thorpe.

Colin 

[rightsaidfred]

Colin I try not to generalise as there are good and bad in every community, however anyone living on an island must and should accept the limitations, I am aware of the commercial operations by the pub although using some of the moorings they are not a significant problem, my comment was that having managed to find a space I could fit into I then watched several runabouts come over spreading themselves out up to the far end making it impossible for any visitors to stop there, whether it was deliberate or not I leave to your conclusion I reached mine, that was then compounded by watching a couple getting off their boat and crapping in the bushes, if people want to be accepted then they need to behave in an acceptable manner.

Fred

[Stationerystill]

This is the situation at Thorpe Green

"The Broads Authority is not determining or designating Thorpe St Andrew River Green as a ‘public staithe’ or ‘common’ in history, law or practice. This report is the opinion of the author and, having taken legal advice, the Broads Authority is unequivocally satisfied that Thorpe St Andrew Town Council has the powers in both statute and byelaw to control access, mooring and to charge for all moorings at River Green." This has been added to Professor Williamsons staithes report to avoid the B.A. being sued after seeing the evidence files.

Roy Kemp lived in Thorpe and did not include the River green in his list of public staithes. He probably knew it was not.

[Islander]

Fred.

Bushes, what bushes, are we talking about the same place. There are no bushes on the green.  There is, what I'm told, a good clean public toilet? Did you bother to report what you saw and take the number of the boat or take a photo? Can you substantiate you claims?

Colin

[Vaughan]

There is also a public toilet with laundry facilities provided in one of the boatyard buildings on the island. Most of the boats there have access to the pumpout machine without even having to move their moorings. With all that woodland and otherwise waste ground at the back of the island, the thought of someone from one of the moored boats coming across the river in a dinghy to have a crap in a bush on the Green is difficult to contemplate. 

[Vaughan]

6 hours ago, Stationerystill said:

"The Broads Authority is not determining or designating Thorpe St Andrew River Green as a ‘public staithe’ or ‘common’ in history, law or practice.

How very convenient, for the authorities to brush history under the carpet when it suits their purpose. The staithe is even delineated on old Ordnance Survey maps. How do they imagine that the business of J.Hart & Son ran for over 100 years without access from the road to the river across the staithe.

Roy Kemp did indeed live in Thorpe, on South Avenue, directly across the road from the Staithe. Before this area was developed into a street with private housing, it was a sand quarry.  There were several others along the escarpment behind what is now the Yarmouth Rd (which wasn't there then either) including Beech Hill (School Lane) and Dales Loke. All of this large production of sand for the brickworks further down river at Surlingham and Bramerton was loaded onto wherries at the public staithe.

But it is so much easier to gloss over these things, when it suits. Just as they did in Jenners Basin.

[rightsaidfred]

No Colin not the green but about half to 2/3ds of the way along the boats moored  on the island and no I don't have evidence that would stand up in court and I am not likely to be there anytime in the near future to get the boat details, whether they don't have a toilet on board or could not be bothered or were incapable of walking to the facilities  I don't know but I do know what I saw, as it was going to cause more of a problem to the island residents than myself I wasn`t rushing to get a camera but it wasn`t very nice for children or some one more sensitive than me to witness.

Fred

[Islander]

Fred, maybe this will help. Sorry for the pun but I really want to get to the bottom of this.

This is the most recent pic I have. Can you identify the boat you saw this couple leave or is it not in this image?

Colin

[Islander]

Morning Vaughan, just to add to your comments. The pumpout system extends as far as the barge and boats do not have to move to use it. The system was extended many years back now and recently been overhauled.

Colin

[rightsaidfred]

10 hours ago, Islander said:

Fred, maybe this will help. Sorry for the pun but I really want to get to the bottom of this.

This is the most recent pic I have. Can you identify the boat you saw this couple leave or is it not in this image?

Colin

 

[rightsaidfred]

Sorry Colin cant help from that photo apart from the angle it was 3 or 4 months ago, I wasnt taking a lot of notice till the obvious happened but if it is more than a one off the evidence should be fairly obvious.

Fred