Jump to content
  • Announcements

    Welcome! New around here? Take a look at the New Members' Guide for some pointers.

    Not a member yet? Sign up here and you can soon be chatting away with friends old and new..

    Check out our Handy Information section if you're after something quickly!

Sign in to follow this  
Siddy

Electric Posts & Cards

Recommended Posts

Okay, let's ask the question a different way.

How was it determined that 67% of hire boats have shore power facilities? Has the question in fact been phrased along the lines of "how many boats have 240v power" because I think you'd find that if you include those with inverters then you wouldn't be far off the 67%.

Not the same thing, but it depends what question was actually asked of yards and how they responded.

Statistics are only as good as the integrity and quality of the data on which they are based. It is very easy to get misleading results from surveys by asking the questions in the wrong way.

The devil is in the detail.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, oldgregg said:

Okay, let's ask the question a different way.

How was it determined that 67% of hire boats have shore power facilities? Has the question in fact been phrased along the lines of "how many boats have 240v power" because I think you'd find that if you include those with inverters then you wouldn't be far off the 67%.

Not the same thing, but it depends what question was actually asked of yards and how they responded.

Statistics are only as good as the integrity and quality of the data on which they are based. It is very easy to get misleading results from surveys by asking the questions in the wrong way.

The devil is in the detail.

I think you'll find the original post  mentioned 67% have shore power , it didn't mention inverter's , probably because they aren't shore power .

Fine challenging someone's figures but do some research and come up with something concrete to support that , ie ask a yard , if one person can do it so can others .

I don't challenge others figures until I know myself as that's the fair way to do it .

Inverter's have no part to play it the figures you can use one while mudweighted no where near and electric post .

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Based purely on observation as I don't have actual figures and ignoring inverters as being misleading I think both arguments are probably somewhere near right, looking at most hire boats when in their base yard I would say at least 2/3rds have mains battery charging facilities the 67% figure quoted while I would also say looking at the boat specifications a much smaller number have true 240v domestic setups from shore power.

Fred

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 15/12/2019 at 08:10, rightsaidfred said:

Based purely on observation as I don't have actual figures and ignoring inverters as being misleading I think both arguments are probably somewhere near right, looking at most hire boats when in their base yard I would say at least 2/3rds have mains battery charging facilities the 67% figure quoted while I would also say looking at the boat specifications a much smaller number have true 240v domestic setups from shore power.

Fred

Yeah, I think that's more likely. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 15/12/2019 at 08:10, rightsaidfred said:

Based purely on observation as I don't have actual figures and ignoring inverters as being misleading I think both arguments are probably somewhere near right, looking at most hire boats when in their base yard I would say at least 2/3rds have mains battery charging facilities the 67% figure quoted while I would also say looking at the boat specifications a much smaller number have true 240v domestic setups from shore power.

Fred

Sorry but I fail to understand why a yard would equip a boat with shore power just for a battery charger , after all it needs exactly the same fitment to pass a BSC , and all it needs is a bit of cable and a few sockets , clearly that makes the boat more attractive to those that want mains power and a inflated hire cost no doubt .

That said I've done no research on the matter as there are far more important issues but I have a certain amount of knowledge to fall back on .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, D46 said:

Sorry but I fail to understand why a yard would equip a boat with shore power just for a battery charger ,

probably because in the long run it is easier, cheaper and less polluting than running 200 engines for a few hours on handover day .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, psychicsurveyor said:

probably because in the long run it is easier, cheaper and less polluting than running 200 engines for a few hours on handover day .

Yes see that point but I really think is doing half a job , where as to include a few mains sockets make the boat more attractive to some as not all things come in a 12v format nor do people want to replicate items they already have .

Now given how many hire boats you see plugged in these days it's pretty obvious creature comforts are high on quite a lot of hirers list.

Me I prefer the choice which makes finding a mooring much less stressful and the boat can operate just as it does on mains power mimicked via the inverter .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No point in having too many boats fully wired as there isn't enough power posts on the network, that would disappoint many hirers expecting a full 240v supply.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a very good point actually.

We've just returned from a 10 day break without plugging in. No problem at all bar Mrs Nog's hair dryer which could  have been easily overcome with a bigger inverter. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, D46 said:

Yes see that point but I really think is doing half a job , where as to include a few mains sockets make the boat more attractive to some as not all things come in a 12v format nor do people want to replicate items they already have .

Now given how many hire boats you see plugged in these days it's pretty obvious creature comforts are high on quite a lot of hirers list.

Me I prefer the choice which makes finding a mooring much less stressful and the boat can operate just as it does on mains power mimicked via the inverter .

I cant claim to be any sort of expert my opinion is just based on logic and observation, in my own experience there is quite a difference between the  cost of retrospectively fitting  a simple battery charger and a full blown domestic setup with consumer unit etc. as far as the hire yards are concerned I would think the only justification would lay in the level of equipment installed requiring 240v with older boats this is much lower    and generally easily covered with an inverter for TVs and portable items,  on the more modern ones installation is a lot easier during initial fit out.

Looking at the economics of resale I don't see hire yards investing unnecessarily in older boats that will only sell at the lower end of the market but concentrating  their available resources  on the new builds that have a much higher specification, when moored at places like Ranworth with several points it is noticeable that while the newer hire boats plug in most of the older ones do  not even with empty sockets available.

Fred

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

and generally easily covered with an inverter for TVs and portable items,  on the more modern ones installation is a lot easier during initial fit out.

Absolutely 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm certainly no expert, but I do know inverters are very expensive, whereas a household "consumer unit" or whatever they're called will be one heck of a lot cheaper. 

The cost of wiring each won' differ much between the two, so I would imagine it would be a lot cheaper for a yard to retrofit a proper 240v shore power system rather than an inverter. 

As I said, I'm no expert, so if there is anybody with more knowledge, the please let us know?. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, SPEEDTRIPLE said:

I'm certainly no expert, but I do know inverters are very expensive, whereas a household "consumer unit" or whatever they're called will be one heck of a lot cheaper. 

The cost of wiring each won' differ much between the two, so I would imagine it would be a lot cheaper for a yard to retrofit a proper 240v shore power system rather than an inverter. 

As I said, I'm no expert, so if there is anybody with more knowledge, the please let us know?. 

Firstly  Inverters come in a number of sizes and can be used anywhere shore power is very restricting, also not sure about BSS but the consumer unit on my boat is a lot different to and far more expensive than a household one.

Fred

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The consumer unit on mine is a standard household one, no problem with BSS.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, D46 said:

Yes see that point but I really think is doing half a job , where as to include a few mains sockets make the boat more attractive to some as not all things come in a 12v format nor do people want to replicate items they already have .

Now given how many hire boats you see plugged in these days it's pretty obvious creature comforts are high on quite a lot of hirers list.

Me I prefer the choice which makes finding a mooring much less stressful and the boat can operate just as it does on mains power mimicked via the inverter .

I think one of the reasons that there aren't more hire boats with shore power is that there simply aren't enough places for them to be plugged in at. 

There's little point in investing in adding shore circuits on the fleets as if it's there, punters will expect to be able to use it.

Perhaps most importantly there would need to be an enormous infrastructure investment to get shore power to every mooring spot, many of which the BA just rent from the landowner. Some are miles from a road.

Having a battery charger fitted so you can have the boat topped up when it comes back into the yard (after which it may not be going out for a few days) is handy though as many hirers don't do a lot of hours' cruising in a week and so the batteries can be left to get nicely topped up to prevent damage as well as issues for the next hirer. Battery management is a big issue on Broads boats.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shore power is simply a cable fitted with a  plug that plugs into into a socket that is connected to the grid which terminates on a boat or even a motor caravan what you use it for is to transfer electricity from permanent mains supply to a mobile sockit, what you then do with it depends on what price you want to pay, starting with a battery charger permanently fitted or a just a  socket that can be plugged into that  is safer than an extension lead, you then go from there to the home like 240 volt appliances and the same safty items, ie,fuses, rcb's mcb's, surge protectors,etc, fitting a inverter is not shore power, it replicates  shore power that is powered from a battery which is charged ether by solar, wind ,engine power or battery charger from shore power, it replicates grid power that doesn't require connecting to the grid, and is a alternative to a 240 volt generator. John

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, oldgregg said:

Having a battery charger fitted so you can have the boat topped up when it comes back into the yard

also remember that most boats like to get close to the home yard overnight before handover day, so most boats will have a whole nights electric use and maybe half an hour of cruising to get back to the yard, thus the batteries on handoved could well do with an additional top up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You will also need a few reliable batteries to keep a large inverter going if you are using such appliances as microwaves and kettles plus a suitable alternator/battery management setup and then cruise for sufficient hours to keep this up! Nothing like as simple as it may sound.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not a fan of inverters on boats.

Phones can be charged from a 12V USB cigar socket adapter, as can laptops. And there are TV's on the market which are 12V but supplied with a 240V power supply. Cut the power supply off the lead and you've got a 12V TV.

Microwaves are all well and good but they're a good way of trashing your batteries. I have also heard of people running electric heaters from an inverter, because the diesel heating is too noisy. I'm not even joking.

And yeah - As I've said many a time, you have to put back in what you take out. A couple of meaty alternators is a good idea on a hire cruiser, hence why some fleets do just that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, oldgregg said:

Cut the power supply off the lead and you've got a 12V TV

No, i've been there, you'll fry the tv. they need a stable 12v feed, remember an altenator running could be up to 14.5v+ been there got the tee shirt. A small 150w inverter is enough to power a 240v tv no problem.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, oldgregg said:

I'm not a fan of inverters on boats.

Phones can be charged from a 12V USB cigar socket adapter, as can laptops. And there are TV's on the market which are 12V but supplied with a 240V power supply. Cut the power supply off the lead and you've got a 12V TV.

Microwaves are all well and good but they're a good way of trashing your batteries. I have also heard of people running electric heaters from an inverter, because the diesel heating is too noisy. I'm not even joking.

And yeah - As I've said many a time, you have to put back in what you take out. A couple of meaty alternators is a good idea on a hire cruiser, hence why some fleets do just that.

Seriously cut the lead of a tv and ignore the 230  power supply at your peril , it's not designed to take the voltage kicked out when the alternator is running , the only way to do it is through a voltage stabiliser and when you have bought that you might just as well have bought a small inverter and onless it out of warranty kept that intact .

Of cause inverter's have a place on boats otherwise they wouldn't be a popular upgrade .

Regarding running 2 big alternators don't forget that will slow the engine down , it's far better to have a proper battery management system or alternator controller  which does also slow the engine , but it does charge faster and to a higher capacity , in most cases fitting one is equivalent to adding an extra battery but with benifits such as extended battery life .

It's not just broads boats that need good battery management it's all boats  where ever they are be they private or hire .

Incidentally who's ever seen a battery management system on a hire boat I certainly haven't .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm surprised you didn't find more in my post to misquote or misinterpret, so I guess I got off fairly lightly this time.

And yes, of course you need a voltage stabiliser.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, oldgregg said:

I'm surprised you didn't find more in my post to misquote or misinterpret, so I guess I got off fairly lightly this time.

And yes, of course you need a voltage stabiliser.

Really I don't think I've mis quoted or mis interrupted you at all , please explain where that has occurred .

Because I didn't full agree with you doesn't mean I've done either of the thing you have accused me off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there's obviously a wealth of knowledge on here about boat electrical systems generally.  

But consider the average hirer or, more particularly, a novice. They have a wealth of information to absorb about tides, speed limits, mooring etc etc. If you have a hire yard would you really want to send someone off with coils of cable, instructions about where to buy cards, how to use the posts, where to find them, how to plug in - that's even assuming if they can find one free. How easy is it to set off while forgetting you are plugged in.

From observation it seems to me that the main users of shore power are private/syndicate owners who have the knowledge and can carry the cables and fan heaters and oil filled radiators and all the other paraphernalia and have an in depth knowledge of how to use it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking hirers (I am one after all) :default_icon_e_biggrin:

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, oldgregg said:

Cut the power supply off the lead and you've got a 12V TV.

I've done this with 3 different TVs and not suffered any problems. But I don't watch telly while the engine's running!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • NBN Mobile App

    Want to use NBN when you're out and about?

    Get our mobile app!

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

For details of our Guidelines, please take a look at the Terms of Use here.