Illegal Drone Flight

[DAVIDH]

13 minutes ago, oldgregg said:

If there were no other people or boats at the moorings (or he had permission from all of them, such as at an NBN meet) and he were at a height of 50 metres then it would be okay.

Where is this permission thing coming from. I don't see anything in the regulations for that, as (one would guess) the drone would not have taken off from the top of their boat? Sure it might be good practice in the conditions you set out, but cannot see it as compulsory. 

[JanetAnne]

So, coming out of Beccles the other day, we were passed by a hire boat heading towards the town with a drone being flown behind. It did not seem particularly close to us but I reckon maybe a decent swing with the boat hook and I could have winged it.

While I have nothing to hide I do feel they are invasive at that level

[oldgregg]

1 hour ago, DAVIDH said:

Where is this permission thing coming from. I don't see anything in the regulations for that, as (one would guess) the drone would not have taken off from the top of their boat? Sure it might be good practice in the conditions you set out, but cannot see it as compulsory. 

It's in the BA's guidelines and you'll find that most landowners at those sort of places have a policy on it.

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/visiting/drone-use

[Timbo]

I just had a quick chat with our drone pilot Roo. For months I thought his name was Rupert (ex RAF pilot type with daft moustache), turns out his name is Roger and Roo is his nickname as in 'Roger Over and Out' after a minor mishap at an end of dig drink. Anyway...

ROO tells me that new laws will be coming into practise within the next two months. All drone pilots operating drones above 250g in weight will have to register with the Civil Aviation Authority and take a competency test.  If you don't register or do the test the fine is £1000. The police will also be given new powers to issue fixed penalty notices

Penalty notices of £100

• if you don't land your drone when instructed to by the police.
• Failure to produce registration documents
• Failure to produce competence documents
• not producing evidence of any other relevant permissions required by legislation

Permissions partly depend on equipment fitted to your drone. If you have a camera fitted then you will require release documents from anyone you film, especially if they are on their private land or within a 'structure' where they are entitled to expect privacy. So caravans, boats, camper vans etc.

 Police will be given new search powers if they believe you have used a drone in an offence.

He also tells me that depending upon your location, it is compulsory to have public liability insurance. For example in London all drone pilots must have a minimum of £5 million cover as do some other cities. He is expecting this to also become part of the new laws come November 30th.

[DAVIDH]

6 minutes ago, oldgregg said:

It's in the BA's guidelines and you'll find that most landowners at those sort of places have a policy on it.

Sorry Gregg, I think you are misunderstanding me. I can see you need permission to launch from somebody's land. But you said permission was needed from the people on the boats. That is what I am querying.

[grendel]

I think I will stick with a Broads Drone

[DAVIDH]

8 minutes ago, Timbo said:

Permissions partly depend on equipment fitted to your drone. If you have a camera fitted then you will require release documents from anyone you film, especially if they are on their private land or within a 'structure' where they are entitled to expect privacy. So caravans, boats, camper vans etc.

Can you provide a link to this information please. I have looked at the new regulations but cannot see this. The rest of what your guy says is well reported but I can see no reference to permissions.
https://www.heliguy.com/blog/2019/01/08/new-uk-drone-legislation-announced/

https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/uk-drone-laws-2019-3146402

[Meantime]

5 minutes ago, DAVIDH said:

Can you provide a link to this information please. I have looked at the new regulations but cannot see this. The rest of what your guy says is well reported but I can see no reference to permissions.
https://www.heliguy.com/blog/2019/01/08/new-uk-drone-legislation-announced/

https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/uk-drone-laws-2019-3146402

I think you'll find the permissions thing is not necessarily about drones par se but about invasion of privacy and related to filming. For instance as UK law currently stands if I am in my back garden but the fence fronts onto a public road and is a low fence, it is not illegal for you to take a picture of me from the road. However if I have a high fence and you take unreasonable actions to take a photo, such as the use of step ladders to see over the wall, it is an invasion of privacy. Plainly using a drone in such situations would be illegal. Not the drone use par se, but the using the drone to film would be, unless off course you had my permission to take the picture.

[Meantime]

The following advice is taken from a solicitor's website: I have highlighted a couple of bits.

You should also consider the impact of general laws on flying a drone:

If you intentionally or recklessly hit someone with your drone, you could be liable for battery, which carries both criminal and civil sanctions.

If you intentionally or recklessly damage someone else’s property with your drone, you could be liable for criminal damage.

If you fly your drone without exercising a reasonable standard of care and injure someone or damage their property, you could be negligent and liable to compensate the victim for personal injury or damage to property.

If you fly your drone low over someone’s land without their permission, you could be liable in trespass, even if you do not personally go onto the land (although this is generally a civil rather than a criminal matter).

If your drone has a camera, you should consider the impact of the Data Protection Act 1998 (soon to be replaced with by the General Data Protection Regulation) on the collection of footage using the device. Compliance with the Act requires, among other things, that you only gather and use footage fairly and lawfully. The Information Commissioner’s Office guidance suggests that this would include making it obvious that you are responsible for the drone and that the drone is capable of filming. The guidance also highlights the importance of ensuring that you only record in appropriate locations using the drone – for example, using the drone to film your neighbour’s back garden is obviously likely to infringe their privacy; doing so repeatedly could amount to the offence of harassment.

[JawsOrca]

I'm not overly sure that's correct.. if you are outside then there are no privacy laws (considering CCTV is everywhere and public domain etc.. regardless of what authorities think as they always get it wrong) if you are inside and someone peeps through your window and takes a picture then yes.. but I suspect that image can be pixelated so remove your identity then no privacy has been breached.. this is all far too complicated though.. and laws are indeed emerging...

I think you'll find the permissions thing is not necessarily about drones par se but about invasion of privacy and related to filming. For instance as UK law currently stands if I am in my back garden but the fence fronts onto a public road and is a low fence, it is not illegal for you to take a picture of me from the road. However if I have a high fence and you take unreasonable actions to take a photo, such as the use of step ladders to see over the wall, it is an invasion of privacy. Plainly using a drone in such situations would be illegal. Not the drone use par se, but the using the drone to film would be, unless off course you had my permission to take the picture.

Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app

[Meantime]

This is the ICO stance on it. The first paragraph say Let people know before you start recording. I take that as gain permission first.

https://ico.org.uk/your-data-matters/drones/

 

[Meantime]

3 minutes ago, JawsOrca said:

I'm not overly sure that's correct.. if you are outside then there are no privacy laws (considering CCTV is everywhere and public domain etc.. regardless of what authorities think as they always get it wrong) if you are inside and someone peeps through your window and takes a picture then yes.. but I suspect that image can be pixelated so remove your identity then no privacy has been breached.. this is all far too complicated though.. and laws are indeed emerging...

 

 

Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app
 

 

If you are outside, but somewhere where you might reasonably expect to have privacy, then it is an invasion of privacy to film. The recent law on upskirting is a classic example of that. Likewise if in your back garden surrounded by a high fence then you have a reasonable expectation of privacy. If you have a low, or wire netting fence, then you don't. Those laws have already been well tested particularly when it comes to the papperazzi.

 

[oldgregg]

44 minutes ago, DAVIDH said:

Sorry Gregg, I think you are misunderstanding me. I can see you need permission to launch from somebody's land. But you said permission was needed from the people on the boats. That is what I am querying.

What I meant was any boats within the 50 metres (ie if you are taking off / landing within 50M of them) as they're the property / objects within 50 metres to which the CAA refer.

Of course it is quite easy to avoid being within 50 metres, and most people would just walk a couple of hundred feet away from anything or anyone before launching and then ascend vertically to 50 metres before moving horizontally.

Again I'm not anti-drones, they just need to be used sensibly.

[DAVIDH]

Yes, all of this is common sense and the average drone flier is not going to want to infringe on someones privacy. 

Your link : https://ico.org.uk/your-data-matters/drones/ does reference letting people know you are recording, but if you read on, in certain circumstances, where that might not be possible, it advises you to use common sense. I take that to mean, don't deliberately get up someones nose with it (figurativey and literally). 

"Let people know before you start recording. In some scenarios this is going to be quite easy because you will know everyone within close view (for example, if you are taking a group photo at a family barbeque). In other scenarios, for example at the beach or the park, this is going to be much more difficult so you’ll need to apply some common sense before you start."

To be honest, if it were the case that you are not  allowed to video  - at any distance  - without permissions, even commercial pilots might as well throw their drones in the bin come 30th November! 

[JawsOrca]

This is complex but the UK photography laws are often misunderstood by all including our police.. one random link googled.. https://www.blpawards.org/competition/photo-rights. Upskirting is of course indecent other examples you've raised are i guess classed as harassment.

If you are outside, but somewhere where you might reasonably expect to have privacy, then it is an invasion of privacy to film. The recent law on upskirting is a classic example of that. Likewise if in your back garden surrounded by a high fence then you have a reasonable expectation of privacy. If you have a low, or wire netting fence, then you don't. Those laws have already been well tested particularly when it comes to the papperazzi.
 

Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app

[Timbo]

I'll give Roo a ring later in the week and ask him what he meant. But off the top of my head I think he's referring to things like GDPR. Particularly with drones there is the possibility of stirring article nine of the GDPR as the metadata included in photographs and film footage will have not only have data that will enable the identification of a person but also provide GPS tracking information. 
 

[DAVIDH]

Thanks Timbo. If you take this to it's logical conclusion, we might as well all stop videoing/photographing anything unless you are sure you don't accidentally capture a human being, or at least, ask their permission to include them. As Jaws says, the multitude of CCTV cameras filming anyone and everyone passing by, seems to make a mockery of all this. Also, images on social media. Try telling Facebook that the image you uploaded is your property and cannot be flashed around the world.

[ChrisB]

CCTV has a loads of legislation. I never got involved but our Security Division were forever on courses be it domestic, commercial or public spaces, each having different rules and regulations.

cctv-code-of-practice (1).pdf

28_09_CCTV_OR_Manual2835 (1).pdf

[ChrisB]

Certainly in it's most simple form you must have notices that " CCTV IS IN OPERATION" 

I am also aware that private CCTV is subject to legislation if your cameras can film outside the boundaries of your property.

[Meantime]

29 minutes ago, DAVIDH said:

Thanks Timbo. If you take this to it's logical conclusion, we might as well all stop videoing/photographing anything unless you are sure you don't accidentally capture a human being, or at least, ask their permission to include them. As Jaws says, the multitude of CCTV cameras filming anyone and everyone passing by, seems to make a mockery of all this. Also, images on social media. Try telling Facebook that the image you uploaded is your property and cannot be flashed around the world.

I guess a lot of it comes down to what, and where the footage ends up! Whilst there is a whole host of CCTV public and private, its storage and protection is most certainly dictated by the ICO and it must only be retained and used for specific purposes, with clearly defined retention policies.

With regards to Facebook, their terms and conditions will give them the right to use any picture that you choose to upload to their service. Remember it was your choice to upload it in the first place to a service that is not free. It gets its funding from selling your data, which you consent to by using their service.  

[oldgregg]

59 minutes ago, DAVIDH said:

Yes, all of this is common sense and the average drone flier is not going to want to infringe on someones privacy. 

I'd say the average drone 'enthusiast' - for want of a better description - would definitely think about the impact of the flight but I've seen loads of people using them with total disregard to the rules.

As I say, I've been buzzed at well below 50 metres several times by drones travelling with a passing boat and personally I wouldn't fly like that. I'm on or around the Broads a lot and see more of it than most people, of course.

[rightsaidfred]

6 hours ago, DAVIDH said:

Agree with all of that. The owners of the land have every right to restrict flying from there. I don't think however, unless I'm mistaken, that permission from the boat owners needs to be sought. The regulations just say not within 150 feet of people or within 150 metres of a built up area. (Again, just in the interests of accuracy)

Which you have surely breached when overflying Horning including the marinas on your videos, I wonder if peeping tom could also be called into question, while people should be free to carry out what ever hobby they choose it shouldn't intrude on others.

Fred

[DAVIDH]

Oh dear Fred, I seem to have upset you. Can you please explain what you mean by :

27 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

I wonder if peeping tom could also be called into question, while people should be free to carry out what ever hobby they choose it shouldn't intrude on others.

 

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

People fishing out of season (alledgedly),

People speeding in boats,

people flying drones,

What the hell are you lot going to complain about next?. What happened to live and let live, is it now live and let live providing i like and agree with it?. Why don`t we all, just for once, MIND OUR OWN BLOODY BUSINESS?. 

I wonder how many hypocrites regularly cruise up and down the narrow rivers looking at, or even worse, INTO the riverside bungalows without a care in the world for THEIR privacy?.

Let he who is without sin ...................................... ?

Rant over.

[OldBerkshireBoy]

19 minutes ago, SPEEDTRIPLE said:

People fishing out of season (alledgedly),

People speeding in boats,

people flying drones,

What the hell are you lot going to complain about next?. What happened to live and let live, is it now live and let live providing i like and agree with it?. Why don`t we all, just for once, MIND OUR OWN BLOODY BUSINESS?. 

I wonder how many hypocrites regularly cruise up and down the narrow rivers looking at, or even worse, INTO the riverside bungalows without a care in the world for THEIR privacy?.

Let he who is without sin ...................................... ?

Rant over.

Had a bad day have we?