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MauriceMynah

Re-engining A Boat.

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9 hours ago, Regulo said:

Remember that piece of string? How long was it? 

Twice the length from the centre to either of the two ends. :default_rolleyes:

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Oh, I see! So the centre is equidistant from the ends? Why didn't they teach me that at school? As in the Simon & Garfunkel song, " When I look back on all the c**p I learned in High School, it's a wonder I can think at all".

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11 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

As some of you know, I'm looking to acquire a different boat, but some I've been contemplating have rather old engines. I am not engineering minded (I need a workshop manual just to pump up the tyres on the Volvo) 

 

When I started looking at boats it seemed that the "normal" way to go about it was to have a professional survey done, followed by a test, followed by haggling. No, I didn't either!

But your confession above would seem to put a lot of value in taking someone along who has the experience to evaluate an engine properly. This could save you a lot of cash in the long run in that you may get an old engine that doesn't acually need to be rebuilt. If it does look and sound a bit ropey your expert should be able to help you haggle the price down, thus offsetting some of the cost. And don't forget the gearbox.

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1 hour ago, JanetAnne said:

With the current thinking regarding diesel engines I would certainly not be re-engineering for another diesel installation at this time. As the general motorists demand for diesel decreases in the coming years there will be reduced availability along with higher prices (which we are already seeing on the forecourt).

Keep, rebuild or just nurse what you have if you can and wait for the new technology to find it's way afloat.

With an old BMC due for reinstallation as we at long last move towards having a sound hull to put it in, this is a question which has been on my mind lately. I'm unconvinced that new technology is sufficiently advanced (or affordable) to justify itself at present, so we'll continue with the BMC for now. Scarcely a hardship really. And in my experience they are actually more economical than many of the newer diesel engines.

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I did originally look at re-conning the Perkins 4108 we inherited when we bought R641.  The cost back in 2005 was around £3'500 and that was doing it myself, no labour costs other than having machining done where necessary.

If we had gone down that route we would have ended up with a 4108 bullet proof, yet again producing 34hp as it should.  We would also have had:- The Noise, vibration and smell of 40's technology.  Nothing wrong with that but we had the ideal opportunity to improve the quality when underway whilst afloat

So, We looked at purchasing a brand new Beta Marine 50hp .  The cost was around £5'500 back then.  That meant an extra £2000 onto the budget but we would have modern technology producing 50hp along with a smooth, quiet, no smell running experience

It was a no brainer for us.  The added advantage was of course there would not be any labour costs involved.  Had to replace a myriad of bits around the new engine but it was well worth it.  Once the g/box had been re-conned, a new replacement 4 x blade prop as the original 3 x blade unit could not deliver the power in the water efficiently.

The result - The Beta is now approaching 3'000 x Hrs.  I've had to replace a raw water pump and a starter motor.  Other than that just service items.  The engine is a breeze for both minor and major servicing - I have done every single one of them

It is silky smooth both at tickover and flat out, it's quiet and has enhanced the cruising experience no end.  It is easily the most beneficial upgrade we have ever done with 'B.A'  She did two 16 x Hrs runs at 2'200rpm (Only 300rpm below max) to the Thames and back and never missed a beat.  Being sensible with the throttle / tides makes her economical too.  That 4 x blade prop is fantastic during mooring evolutions too

Why Beta and not nanni ?  Easy - there was no way we was having a french unit onboard.  Never gonna happen

Would I re-engine an older boat that had a tired old engine for a modern unit again? - Most definitely

Griff

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10 hours ago, JanetAnne said:

With the current thinking regarding diesel engines I would certainly not be re-engineering for another diesel installation at this time. As the general motorists demand for diesel decreases in the coming years there will be reduced availability along with higher prices (which we are already seeing on the forecourt).

Keep, rebuild or just nurse what you have if you can and wait for the new technology to find it's way afloat.

There is a lot of sense in that statement, burning diesel for fun is not going to get more popular in these times and the car manufacturers are having to pour lots of money into new tech to come up with the next best seller so nursing an old engine that will probably always start and run as long as it has clean oil/air/fuel for the next 5 years will probably give more options, for rivers only I would love to go electric but I can't see it being viable for sea use.

Watch this space as things are going to change so may as well see which way they change first before spending, you can store the nearly new nanni with the mini-disk, the betamax, the walkman, and all the other stuff we loved for a very short period.

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talking of the way things are going, electric propulsion is just the stop gap between fossil fuel and cleaner greener means of propulsion, it is being introduced while the car companies iron the wriinkles out of hydrogen fuel cells etc, the future in propulsion will be powered by hydrogen, with the side product of the exhaust as water, whether this will drive hydrogen powered engines or generate electricity for electric engines is another story.

the future of the gas industry is that it will be going over to hydrogen, natural gas is a finite resource, the network is already being tested to enable hydrogen to flow in the current gas networks, and all they need to do is make the appliances and devices that operate from it idiot proof, so people dont blow themselves to bits misusing the appliances. the conversion in many cases will be similar to when we moved from coal gas to natural gas.

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11 minutes ago, grendel said:

talking of the way things are going, electric propulsion is just the stop gap between fossil fuel and cleaner greener means of propulsion, it is being introduced while the car companies iron the wriinkles out of hydrogen fuel cells etc, the future in propulsion will be powered by hydrogen, with the side product of the exhaust as water, whether this will drive hydrogen powered engines or generate electricity for electric engines is another story.

the future of the gas industry is that it will be going over to hydrogen, natural gas is a finite resource, the network is already being tested to enable hydrogen to flow in the current gas networks, and all they need to do is make the appliances and devices that operate from it idiot proof, so people dont blow themselves to bits misusing the appliances. the conversion in many cases will be similar to when we moved from coal gas to natural gas.

Funnily enough I was reading an article about this in our local paper here yesterday. A very interesting feature is that hydrogen in future may be produced by electrolysis, from water, and the electric power for this can be provided by wind farms or solar farms. This makes great sense to me as I have always been sceptical about wind farms, as they can't store the current they produce, so don't work on calm days. This could be a much more practical use for them!

I guess we will now have to wait while this process is experimented with, in order to make it economical in mass production.

I quite agree about the danger of explosion! We have spent years getting rid of petrol in boats, and now this! Anyone who has had a battery explode on them, will know what hydrogen is like!

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Thank you JanetAnne and Smoggy for your contributions which, whilst I take them onboard ( see what I did there?) they don't really solve my dilemma.

It is my belief that the Diesel engine will be around for quite a while yet, certainly it will see my boating days out. Further, waiting for the right time to buy into the modern technology just doesn't work. Things will always be changing so the time to "go with it" will never be right.  Ie, Hydrogen fuel cells take over from mains recharging cars which took over from petrol/diesel cars which took over from horses. Each transport method lasting a shorter period from the one preceding it. (so far)

Griff, Apart from having French things onboard (I drink Pernod don't you know) I agree with you. hence my starting this research into the budget required.

People have had their boats re-engine and although each job (and therefore price) will be very different, I would expect the job to have cost something more than £30, but would equally guess that the Euromillions jackpot winners shown recently on TV, wouldn't  struggle with the bill. So! that piece of string is going to be less than a lightyear, but not microscopic. I'd just like to heat some examples to give me a clue.

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I have experienced that, fortunately the battery was in the engine bay, and not under the drivers seat in my van, but it still sprayed bits everywhere, added to that after 2 years the rust set in with a vengance, despite hosing the engine bay down immediately.

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Incidentally, the reason for the article was that they have just introduced hydrogen powered public transport in Carcassonne. The vehicles have electric traction, with power from batteries charged by a hydrogen fuel cell.

The article had a clear opinion of "suck it and see" as they are still concerned about storage tanks on the vehicle and also the cost of re-fuelling installations. Fine for a bus company with a depot, but not the same practicality for white van man, I would think! There was also a clear feeling that as hydrogen is at present made as a by-product of the refining of fossil fuels, there is hardly any "green" advantage!

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22 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

Not including the cost of the engine itself, roughly how much do members reckon it would cost to have the job done?

I have absolutely no idea Eminem, we haven't replaced our engine yet, although the time to do so may be drawing near. I have seen an article however (granted it is from 2012) which gives a rundown of the costs of a "typical" engine replacement.

It does quote TS Marine as the engineers down ont Sarf Coast, but in the absence of anyone having given a rough idea it's a start to answer your question.

They quote the labour at £1200-1400 and the article can be found here

https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/archive/replacing-an-old-engine-costs-and-contacts-2680

but as I stated, I don't have any idea in truth. I would be interested to know for future reference too however.

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You'll be looking in the region of £10-15K, plus any electrical work etc that might be necessary (or at least very sensible) in terms of split charger etc.

Also if the gearbox isn't viable for refurb then you'll want to factor that in.

That's based on fairly recent experience.

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Hi Maurice New 60hp Beta £7,000/ £8,000 plus gearbox or use your existing one there then will be extra's ie exhaust pipes,  hoses,engine control cable plus labour unless you do it yourself or! recondition the existing, engine old engines like bmc,   perkins ,Ford might be noisier but often just as economical as new and just as reliable, it's the add on bits that tend to break/wair out using the existing engine also saves changing/altering all the mounting, heat exchangers needing altering. Some old engines Mercedes Peugeot Citroen BMW which  can be difficult to get spares might be worth changing whare this isn't the case with BMC, Perkins, Ford Always buy in the country of origin. John

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2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

Incidentally, the reason for the article was that they have just introduced hydrogen powered public transport in Carcassonne. The vehicles have electric traction, with power from batteries charged by a hydrogen fuel cell.

The article had a clear opinion of "suck it and see" as they are still concerned about storage tanks on the vehicle and also the cost of re-fuelling installations. Fine for a bus company with a depot, but not the same practicality for white van man, I would think! There was also a clear feeling that as hydrogen is at present made as a by-product of the refining of fossil fuels, there is hardly any "green" advantage!

what would happen is that petrol stations would be connected up to the gas network (now running on hydrogen) and you would just connect up to a hydrogen pump and fill your tank as normal (actually thinking about it they might well run a storage tank of liquid hydrogen on site, so maybe they would recieve deliveries in liquid form and pump liquid to the vehicles tanks)

live trials of a half way house system where they mix hydrogen into normal natural gas have been underway for a year already

https://www.northerngasnetworks.co.uk/2018/11/29/hydrogen-to-heat-homes-14-9m-for-uks-first-trials-on-public-gas-network/

current reports say that all of the petal gas pipes should have been replaced with the modern plastic piping by 2030, which will enable a full switchover to hydrogen to be achieved in the mean time a mix of natural gas and hydrogen seems to be on the cards as an interim carbon reduction measure, burning hydrogen doesnt result in carbon dioxide (just water as the exhaust by product) so other than storage the hydrogen would be safer to burn on board a boat.

the full switchover to hydrogen is planned before 2050 (so the government can hit its climate carbon targets)

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23 hours ago, Regulo said:

Oh, I see! So the centre is equidistant from the ends? Why didn't they teach me that at school? As in the Simon & Garfunkel song, " When I look back on all the c**p I learned in High School, it's a wonder I can think at all".

You should have attended a better school, much like I did, it was approved! :default_cool:

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Having run an LPG converted Lexus for 3 years, how much more explosive is hydrogen. If your vehicle explodes i guess i doesn't matter if you are blown to pieces or obliterated, sorry, bit flippant, but hopefully you get my point.

We have half of Kent being dug up to replace gas mains and i did wonder why if they are phasing out gas, now i know.

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9 hours ago, psychicsurveyor said:

We have half of Kent being dug up to replace gas mains and i did wonder why if they are phasing out gas, now i know.

Are they digging the top half or the bottom half? It would be much less disruptive if they dug up the bottom half and slipped the gas pipes under the top half surely!

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28 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

Are they digging the top half or the bottom half? It would be much less disruptive if they dug up the bottom half and slipped the gas pipes under the top half surely!

:default_rofl: The bottom half don’t use gas.

They are lining the original main in many cases then tapping the pipe for each house. Still lots of holes being dug.

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probably replacing all the old gas meters with modern smart ones in the process if they have any sense.

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But doesn't it take more electricity to split the water into hydrogen than the resulting power available in that hydrogen? I thought that was the limiting factor in take-up. Or am I behind the technology (again)?

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10 minutes ago, Regulo said:

But doesn't it take more electricity to split the water into hydrogen than the resulting power available in that hydrogen? I thought that was the limiting factor in take-up. Or am I behind the technology (again)?

Yes well of course it does, but worry ye not. They're getting some big diesel generators to do the job

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