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JennyMorgan

Acle B.N.P.

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12 hours ago, floydraser said:

Well it seems we don't have the answer to that just yet so why can't we have a neutral attitude towards it until we do? For instance, it could be they were looking for confirmation, or it could always have been part of the procedure and the question came in mid way through. I've seen quite a few premature "look, we've got 'em on the run" type inferrences on here. 

If the various Authorities had carried out due diligence they would have gained clarification before allowing the signs to be put in place not retrospectively after being challenged as to there legality, that is why it is important for the conscientious members of society here or elsewhere to question anything that appears to be wrong or illegal, sitting on the fence dosn`t work you end up falling off one side or the other sometimes with a painful landing, dictatorships rely on subservience democracy is or should be about  openness and truth.

Fred

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Fred, I don't know you from Adam but you come over as an exceedingly wise old bird! 

13 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

.. . . . . . . dictatorships rely on subservience democracy is or should be about  openness and truth.

As part of the wider picture the Broads is relatively small, subject to blind eyes in government departments with bigger fish to fry. A fact long relied upon by minor quangos and self appointed demigods.

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Surely the BA's  Planning team would know all about signage, planning rules etc ?

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23 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Surely the BA's  Planning team would know all about signage, planning rules etc ?

You jest, surely! As a one time street planner down in Brighton you might expect that blessed man to know about signage. Err, perhaps he does!! 

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58 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

...dictatorships rely on subservience democracy is or should be about  openness and truth.

 

32 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Surely the BA's  Planning team would know all about signage, planning rules etc ?

Controls within the BA have been increasingly tightened, until even the pips don't dare to squeak any more. And there seems to be something of a (misplaced) reliance on people outside the organisation not having sufficient knowledge/time/interest to check on what is actually happening.

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I was surprised, maybe not really, to read recently that Authority meetings no longer have an 'any other business' facility which would allow members to raise questions such as to the vandalism of the BNP road signs and how is that project progressing? All matters have to to be formally submitted for consideration so many days before meetings thus ruling out any 'unhelpful to the CEO' type  questions. How and why members have allowed this deplorable level of executive control to develop is way beyond belief!

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“Here you go Nelly or should I call you Glover? Do you want a currant one or one of these nice pink iced ones?”

Don't mind me folks, I'm just feeding buns to the incredibly large pachyderm sat in the middle of the room. My word, we've all been busy of late drawing lines in the sand and digging trenches and all over an argument that became facile on the 21st of September 2019. I mean, you did spot that the National Parks, AONBs and The Broads will be administered under an amalgamated US style National Parks Service?

“What's that Glover? Yes, the US Service was especially designed to accommodate a wide variety of landscapes, buildings, wildlife and antiquities all with different designations and governed by different national and state legislature. Say again? Yes, that's why you went to visit them. Pardon? You are right you know, they start with the geography and designation. Perhaps that will be why they changed the mapping data sets to reflect the geographic and statutory status of each UK landscape recently? I didn't quite catch that Glover? Yes, the US system is all about access, visitor numbers, protecting landscape and wildlife as a commodity and getting those visitors to pay for access. Oh Glover, I think they'd need to change some legislation to get that through. You know, Sandford and all that? I mean, it's not like central government will be rewriting vast quantities of legislation over the next eleven mon...what, they are? Fancy that!”

To be honest, I'd be looking at the designation of the Blue Ridge Park Way and how it fits into the US Service system. I'd also look at how the US service was restructured in the 90's for an idea of how...

“What's that Glover? Sorry, yes, you can have another bun. That's right, Glover, they did centralise all policy decisions. Don't forget the marketing! What do you mean 'elephant'? Oh, 'elephant', forget, yes, sorry. But they did go all out on marketing. I remember, I did a placement there for two years. Another bun? Yes, yes, I think you are absolutely right, the chances are they will want to re-brand everything all over again."

...they went about it. Quite a few redundancies in administration departments. Signs advertising the new service all over the place! The marketing machine was phenomenal. Of course, their success in visitor numbers has brought it's own problems with it. Despite an increase in income, maintenance has lapsed, local communities are struggling providing the required infrastructure with municipalities expected to cough up for development. Conservation groups and land owners were really surprised when they had to produce a quota of visitors or cough up the cash to warrant a place at the table.

“Say again Glover? Yes, a lot of people did want to have their say on the changes, but you know how the US system works? That's right, if you are not part of the solution then you are a part of the problem. Can you remember that increase in visitors UK central government expected by 2021? Twenty percent you say? Yes, I'm sure everyone in the argument will be able to come up with some alternative, helpful and constructive ideas. They are just a bit distracted at the minute. What's that you say? 'You didn't mean to sit on their football'? To be honest I don't think either side noticed. I'll bring you some more buns the day after tomorrow, be a good boy. Bye Glover!”

I've fed the elephant, look after him while I'm gone? If he gets a bit noisy, try reading the pamphlet he wrote to him. I'm off to talk to some people about archaeology being pinched from a National Park, I'll pop in when I get back.

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3 hours ago, Timbo said:

National Parks, AONBs and The Broads will be administered under an amalgamated US style National Parks Service?

Will they Timbo? 

I'm not an experienced reader of the ways of Government, so I may not recognise the signs.

Didn't Glover just ...report? What are the indications that DEFRA will carry out the recommendations? 

Isn't it possible that Glover will gather dust in a drawer, or is the way it was released evidence that its what is happening?

I think you know more about this than the common wo/man

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I hear through the grapevine that the BNP signs have been removed from Reedham. Whether nicked or officially removed I don't know. I do know that some signs were erected without any agreement between the BA & relevant Parish Councils, perhaps Reedham PC has now objected?  

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10 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

If the various Authorities had carried out due diligence they would have gained clarification before allowing the signs to be put in place not retrospectively after being challenged as to there legality, that is why it is important for the conscientious members of society here or elsewhere to question anything that appears to be wrong or illegal, sitting on the fence dosn`t work you end up falling off one side or the other sometimes with a painful landing, dictatorships rely on subservience democracy is or should be about  openness and truth.

Fred

Legality should be challenged, absolutely. Sitting on the fence though: Everyone new to this subject should be sitting on the fence as it were shouldn't they? At what  point should they decide to climb down one side and what would you do to make sure it's you're side, if indeed, you want the support? And what kind of painful landing do you mean? If were truly on board and in the spirit of this thread I would take that as a thinly veiled threat but as I remain on the planet "normal" I'll take it for what it is, an unfortunate choice of metaphor.

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I'm not qualified to give serious opinion on the rights and wrongs (as perceived) of this whole wider debate.

However Timbo's post about Glover sent me back for a further meander through it's pages and it is quite clear that "if" it's recommendations are accepted and enacted the whole question of BNP and Dr Packman's vision becomes entirely moot. As these paragraphs demonstrate perfectly...

 

"1. Recover, conserve and enhance 
natural beauty, biodiversity 
and natural capital, and 
cultural heritage.


2. Actively connect all parts of 
society with these special places 
to support understanding, 
enjoyment and the nation’s 
health and wellbeing.


3. Foster the economic and 
community vitality of their 
area in support of the first 
two purposes.


Where there is a conflict between any 
of the three purposes, and the further 
navigation purpose assigned to the 
Broads, then greater weight must be 
given to the first of these purposes 
under an updated ‘Sandford Principle’ 
that applies to all our national 
landscapes and not just to National 
Parks as it does currently.
These strengthened purposes will 
help underpin consequently stronger... "

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Thank you for that Ray, thought provoking stuff.

As I see it there is sufficient cause to warrant a rerun of the petitioning that attended the Broads Bill. Only this time it would involve rather more than just the Broads. Ramblers, anglers, farmers and users of other waterways, just for starters.

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My first thoughts at reading about the new proposals: us non broads dwellers, and there's millions of us, think of the "Norfolk  Broads" as a place for boating holidays just as we thinking of the Lake District for walking and climbing etc. Therefore the Broads is surely in the category of cultural heritage as much as navigation?

http://www.cultureindevelopment.nl/Cultural_Heritage/What_is_Cultural_Heritage

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24 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Therefore the Broads is surely in the category of cultural heritage as much as navigation?

Agreed, as far as the Broads is concerned navigation and cultural heritage go hand in hand. For example stone that was used for building Norwich Cathedral arrived by water. Then there was also the Loddon Boat: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-23526192

I wouldn't wish to witness this being taken away from us.

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4 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

As far as the Broads is concerned navigation and cultural heritage go hand in hand. For example stone that was used for building Norwich Cathedral arrived by water. Then there was also the Loddon Boat: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-23526192

Which is exactly how it is in many other areas where a canal runs through it , all of them have cultural heritage as has basically everywhere in the country in various forms .

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10 hours ago, floydraser said:

My first thoughts at reading about the new proposals: us non broads dwellers, and there's millions of us, think of the "Norfolk  Broads" as a place for boating holidays just as we thinking of the Lake District for walking and climbing etc. Therefore the Broads is surely in the category of cultural heritage as much as navigation?

http://www.cultureindevelopment.nl/Cultural_Heritage/What_is_Cultural_Heritage

As I understand it cultural heritage is variable and specific to individual areas, therefore as the Broads area as encompassed by the Broads Authority is almost entirely tidal waterways and associated waters created by peat digging the cultural heritage of the Broads going back to Anglo Saxon times is deeply founded around navigation  and the opportunities that provided, this would appear to be confirmed by the legal requirement for the authority to maintain the navigation as a prime function of its duties alongside its other responsibilities not subservient to them as may be the case elsewhere with different designations, as such I cant see any justification to re-define the Broads just to fit them within a new vision.

Fred

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26 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

As I understand it cultural heritage is variable and specific to individual areas, therefore as the Broads area as encompassed by the Broads Authority is almost entirely tidal waterways and associated waters created by peat digging the cultural heritage of the Broads going back to Anglo Saxon times is deeply founded around navigation  and the opportunities that provided, this would appear to be confirmed by the legal requirement for the authority to maintain the navigation as a prime function of its duties alongside its other responsibilities not subservient to them as may be the case elsewhere with different designations, as such I cant see any justification to re-define the Broads just to fit them within a new vision.

Fred

I certainly agree with your post Fred. In fact I seem to be inundated with vision, of other people. A press release every other day throughout all of the media . Global Warming, climate change, pollution, vehicles that will run on hot air it would seem. Stop eating meat as animals flatulate. They will be after us next.  Any suggestions? 

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25 minutes ago, Wussername said:

Stop eating meat as animals flatulate. They will be after us next.  Any suggestions? 

Yes, stop drinking all that beer, it can't help.

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45 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

. . . . . . . . . this would appear to be confirmed by the legal requirement for the authority to maintain the navigation as a prime function of its duties alongside its other responsibilities not subservient to them as may be the case elsewhere with different designations . . . . . . . . . . . . 

This can only be an opinion but I have long felt that the Authority maintains the navigation because it has to rather than because it wants to. Regretfully I see navigation as being subservient to the Executive's prime interests, the BNP obsession being one of them.

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2 hours ago, Wussername said:

vehicles that will run on hot air it would seem.

Actually thats not quite as silly as it sounds, there is a version of the sterling engine that would be powerful enough to run a boat.

I have actually been looking into this - Stirling engines are external combustion engines , you heat the cylinder up and this causes transfer of gasses to activate the piston, the main issue with them is they are best at running at a constant speed, not slowing down and speeding up, but they could be used to power a generator which could charge the batteries for an electric vehicle. you could burn hydrogen gas to heat the cylinders, and power outputs are comparable to steam engines (but dont require the vast amounts of water to turn into steam), you might need to cool the cold end of the engine to achieve best performance, but here boats have a great advantage.

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Good afternoon all. Just joined NBN and I'm fascinated by Speaker's Corner - it is an accurate reflection of comments being made elsewhere.
I feel very strongly that a huge chunk of Broads Heritage has nothing to do with what's ashore - it's about the ,000's of vessels which have been so vital for the area's economy for well over 2,000 years.
I have been working on a report, which articulates some people's concerns about the current 'National Park' execrcise.
I've drafted the following to set the scene for this and would welcome comments on its accuracy and / or whether it entertains. The final version will have some pictures with it.
 

Why is Navigation so important for the Broads? A potted history

Public Rights of Navigation

There is a great deal of evidence of Public Rights of Navigation (PRN) in Britain throughout our recorded history. It was the Romans who first recorded laws granting them. This continued through Saxon charters and the Magna Carta, to the work of the Commissioners for Sewers who were charged with the removal of obstructions to navigation, mostly fish weirs.

Subsequent to Magna Carta in 1215, there were 20 further statutes to define and reinforce those PRN’s, ncluding, in 1708, “An Act for rendering more effectual the Laws concerning Commissions of Sewers”. Of course, legislation has continued evolving ever since.

The statutory right of navigation on all rivers capable of navigation was completely unquestioned for 1800 years. Over the last 200 years a different view has been formed by some lawyers, landowners and other bodies, based on riparian rights (rights associated with property bordering rivers). But it is an accepted principle of English law that such private rights are subservient to public rights.

Origins of the Broads

There is a very good video explaining the rather unusual history which created the waterways we now call the Broads here: https://www.visitnorfolk.co.uk/explore/Broads-history-of-the-Broads.aspx 

In Roman times, the area was a saltwater estuary with ship navigation stretching to Whitlingham up the Yare, Bungay (the Waveney) and Wroxham (the Bure). The Thurne was open to the sea at Horsey, creating Flegg Island (a Viking name) and Great Yarmouth was nothing more than a sand spit at the mouth of the estuary.

As water levels dropped, rivers were formed, and between the 12th and 14th centuries peat digging became a popular and prosperous industry. It is estimated that more than 900 million cubic feet of peat were extracted, and the work was very labour-intensive. During this period, the area of east Norfolk was officially recorded as the most densely populated in England.

Digging took place until the 14th century, when the massive holes that had been created gradually began to fill with water as the sea levels rose again, creating the ‘Broads’, and the rivers were gradually managed to connect them, to create the waterways we know today.

Commerce in the middle ages

Throughout the 16th century. Norwich was the second largest city in England after London and its tradeable goods of wool, weaving, reed (for thatching), sedge (for horse bedding) and agricultural produce were exported throughout Britain, and indeed the world, from the port of Great Yarmouth. The waterways were also used to transport coal, bricks, timber and tiles.

By this time, ships were no longer able to navigate much of the waterways and the much smaller ‘Keels’, direct descendants of Viking long ships and unique to the Broads, were developed for the purpose

These were later replaced by the more efficient ‘Wherry’, a derivative of a Keel, some of which are still sailing today and are icons of Broads navigation.

Leisure

In the 19th century, the arrival of the railways brought about a catastrophic decline in the demand for Wherries to transport goods. However, they also brought holidaymakers and some of the more astute wherry operators seized the opportunity to fit their vessels out with cabins and other accommodation to entertain them. Thus, the Broads boating holiday was born.

From the middle of that century, yacht racing became so popular on the Broads that regattas became like horse racing is today, with crowds of spectators, many yachts and large prize money, funded by betting (a single race prize could be equivalent to £7,000 in today’s money). This in turn funded rapid developments in design, in pursuit of not only the prize money, but the glory of winning races. In a very short space of time, boats morphed from cumbersome, commercial craft to achingly beautiful yachts with long ‘spoon’ bows, counter sterns, enormous bowsprits and massive ‘pot hunter’ rigs, sailed by professional crews. Some of these are still racing today. The legacy of that period is the largest fleet of traditional yachts in Europe and a regatta calendar crammed full for the whole season, encompassing 50 clubs, classes and associations with around 10,000 individual members

Those improvements in design quickly found their way into the holiday industry, and by the end of the century, more adventurous holidaymakers had the privilege of skippering their own (somewhat smaller) vessel. Of course, the arrival of the internal combustion engine made this holiday even more accessible and spawned the hire fleets we see today, although sailing craft, directly descended from those Victorian racers, are still available for hire.

As our affluence grew in the second half of the 20th century, and GRP construction became commonplace, private ownership of both sailing and motor craft grew rapidly, and in 2019, around 10,500 paid tolls to the BA. Add in the hire craft and over 12,000 vessels provided roughly half its annual budget. These numbers exclude canoes which are exempt from tolls.

Commerce now

The volume of goods carried by river today is negligible. However, equally valuable ‘goods’ have replaced them, in the form of holidaymakers and private owners. Despite the BA’s small budget and Executive Area, the region has a huge effect on local communities and commerce. A separate paper “Perceived and Actual” reports the following statistics for water-related tourism and the entirety (private + hire + land-basd) of Broads industry and commerce.

·         Visitors per year: 7.6 million

·         Contribution to local economy: £648M

·         Employment: 13,000 +

·         People directly affected by BA decisions (excluding visitors): ~100,000

·         Toll-paying craft: ~12,000

·         Stakeholder MP’s: 7

·         Parishes wholly or partly within the BE Executive Area: 93

Therefore, any event which puts navigation at risk could have a devastating effect on a very large number of people, jobs, businesses and communities, and potentially destroy a marine heritage dating back over 2 millennia.

This is why so many people are so very concerned about the continued propagation, of the ‘Broads National Park” myth, so relentlessly promoted by the Broads Authority. Not in its own right, but because of the potential for conservation to eventually hold the whip hand in the management of the Broads, putting navigation at risk.

 

 

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Hello and welcome. 
I think your report is readable and informative. Thanks for going to the trouble!

You will be challenged on ‘The Great Estuary’ for sure! Timbo, the NBN Chairman,   is a landscape archaeologist of some repute (not all bad) and refutes the theory.  :default_coat:

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BigCheese - Welcome to the forum - your first post made easy reading and I agreed with all of it, and learnt a few things too

Thanks for sharing,

Griff

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