Acle B.N.P.

[JennyMorgan]

17 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

If we can trust them, of course. . . . . .

Vaughan, you mention 'them'. If it really were an elected and suitable them with decision by consensus, rather than a minimal, carefully selected committee of 'chairs' kowtowing  to their revered leader then maybe I would have greater confidence.  

[Paladin]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

So I have never seen how the ethos of a national park would fit into all this, since the management of Man-made land can only succeed if it is commercially viable.  Worth noting that reed harvesting is no longer done as it is no longer commercial.  Might this be because certain NPs do not allow Norfolk reed for thatching?

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

 So now we see (as I predicted) what the new Broads National Parkway (so sorry - Broadland Northway) was really built for.  It is the distributor road for what is already becoming a vast housing estate which will cover - and swallow up - an enormous chunk of the central Norfolk farming countryside that I grew up to love.
 

Vaughan, I have 'liked' your post, as I agree with you, but would like to make a couple of points.

Reed harvesting still supports a number of businesses. Since the BA's bursary training scheme for reedcutters and millrights a few years ago, I've noticed that a number of reed beds along the Upper Ant have been brought back into production, by several of those trainees who have gone on to start their own businesses. Just how profitable that might be, I don't know. And yes, I have read reports of NPs refusing planning permission if Norfolk reed would be used.

I didn't know that anyone was in any doubt about the purpose of Broadland Northway. From its inception, it was called the Northern Distributor Route (NDR) for precisely the reason that it was laying down the road infrastructure for the thousands of new homes that are to be built along its route. Heaven only knows what chaos will ensue, once those houses ARE built. It's heavily used now, as motorists attempt to avoid the delays on the Norwich Outer Ring Road. Getting off the Postwick end of it, onto the A.47, is simply a nightmare.

 

 

[Poppy]

16 hours ago, SPEEDTRIPLE said:

This has been a very interesting thread, and a thread that begs a question -

If there was to be a referendum, how would you vote if over the Broads being made a full NP where Sandford MUST apply, would you vote yes or no?.  No tongue twisting dodges, a simple yes or no?.

I`l start the ball rolling with an emphatic NO.

NO!

[marshman]

Vaughan - I agree with you to some extent about rural crafts, but as far as reed is concerned, it is impossible to realistically make a living from it, especially when imported reed from overseas is available more cheaply! Allied to that fact is the issue about how it is just too hard a job in this day and age, for the people who are looking for jobs - you would have to really love outdoor life to freeze your b*****ks off in the winter and get fried and bitten to death in the summer to cut sedge!! Pally is right that it does "exist" and it does, but only at a very "low" level - they do keep looking at opening "new" beds but it is only in bits and pieces.

The thatchers prefer nice even and clean reed and thats not always available in any real quantity and it is still, on the marshes, very labour orientated. Some thatchers like single whale (cut after one year) others double , cut after two.This winter at the moment, for example, is probably going to quite difficult given the huge amount of standing water around and even lightweight machines will probably have difficulty - fun doing it in waders in deep water all day I promise you - not!!! Oh for nice level marshes able to take heavier machines as they have on the reedbeds on the N Norfolk coast - some around here won't even take the machines that bundle it and it still has to be cleaned whatever machine is used.

The BA planners like to see Norfolk reed thatching but don't insist on it, but I very much doubt whether they would approve of straw thatching along the riverside!! So I expect where it is indigenous to the region its hardly surprising that planners like to see straw thatching alongside existing straw thatching - but who grows long stemmed wheat/barley for thatching these days - if you combine it it will just chew it up I guess!!!!

And guess what ST, you are wrong again when trying to guess my views!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nonetheless as I am not being ask to do this in reality, and I cannot second guess whether there are any other factors, I just think its all a bit pointless!

[Poppy]

There is certainly money to be made out of firewood. It would also help with restoring the cultural heritage and true Broadland landscape.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

38 minutes ago, marshman said:

 And guess what ST, you are wrong again when trying to guess my views!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

I take it that`s a no then? 

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

3 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I would like to expand on that, if I may?  The discussion of the legalities and  the doubting of official promises is all very well, on this thread, but I also look at this through the simple eyes of a Broadsman.

The conservation of other NPs is much clearer, since they are areas of country which are (more or less) as they have been ever since the Ice Age.  Largely made up of solid rock!  Their management, as such, is mainly in the commercial hands of local farmers and foresters, so all the NP authority has to do is tell the public how they should behave in them.  Yes, I know, that is a dreadfully simplistic view but I am trying to make a comparison.

The Broads, since the Ice Age, has become what it is today entirely because Man has developed it over the centuries for his own purposes.  So the first question must always be : what exactly do you wish to conserve about this un-natural evolution and for what purpose?

As to local culture, where does that come from?  The original culture of the wetland marshes of what we now call the Broads was wildfowling - and I mean commercial wildfowling.  The wholesale slaughter of all types of water bird.  Hence the number of places on the Broads that are still called "Decoy".  The Norfolk Punt that we now love to see sailing on Barton, was originally a vehicle for the mass killing of duck on the water.  It is true to say that the first tourists who came to the Broads were rich, upper class wildfowlers.  That doesn't sit very well with the RSPB I don't suppose, but it is arguably part of our culture.

The culture of navigation is also derived from the commercial need for transport, as there were no safe roads in the Old Days. It goes right back to the Dutch, who also drained and re-claimed the marshes. Hence the number of places called "Fleet" - another of the many Dutch names which are still in common use on the Broads. It also goes back to the Vikings. St Benets Abbey used to be part of the "Danelaw".

So I have never seen how the ethos of a national park would fit into all this, since the management of Man-made land can only succeed if it is commercially viable.  Worth noting that reed harvesting is no longer done as it is no longer commercial.  Might this be because certain NPs do not allow Norfolk reed for thatching?

Would we be under threat from other interests, if we were not protected by NP status?  Now here we come to my big concern for the future.  Have you heard of the GROWTH TRIANGLE?

It was reported in the EDP in December that the triangle formed between north east Norwich, Wroxham and Brundall, taking in many other villages such as Rackheath, Plumstead, Blofield and, at its extremity, Acle, is now known as the Growth Triangle and 13,400 homes are to be built there in the near future.  They are either being built right now or already have planning permission.  And there are more in the pipeline for future years.  So now we see (as I predicted) what the new Broads National Parkway (so sorry - Broadland Northway) was really built for.  It is the distributor road for what is already becoming a vast housing estate which will cover - and swallow up - an enormous chunk of the central Norfolk farming countryside that I grew up to love.

I won't go into all the obvious problems of infrastructure, hospitals, schools, employment, or even water supply - which is already having to be piped from Norwich to Ludham - but how will this now unstoppable invasion of farmland affect the Broads?  If the aspersions of the RSPB, NWT and EN are to be believed, then Acle will find itself not a "gateway" but the boundary between a vast (and culture less) commuter dormitory and what will soon end up - without navigation - as just a glorified bird reserve which will be closed to the public anyway. 

So do we need the NP status, to stop this? Well, No! The Broads Authority is already the stand-alone planning authority for the Broads area. So we should already be able to rely on them to control it.

If we can trust them, of course. . . . . .

 

The thing i like most about your posts Vaughn is your knowledge of Broads history. Yet again in this post, i`ve learned more more about the original evolution of the Broads and its way of life, something i doubt you will ever read from any tourist information site or NP site. Many thanks for that. 

It`s things like this that are so vital to promote the real broads, rather than the more modern day eco diversified beaurocratic inviro centre crap that so many young inexperienced post grad politically correct group are more likely to tell you today.

if that makes sense?

[JennyMorgan]

Going back to heritage I have often made mention of ethos, not entirely unrelated, or the lack of appreciation of it at Yare House. I don't suppose it has a legal basis as such nevertheless it does exist. Whilst our forebears have killed and hunted for generations that can not be an excuse for the continuation of such activities. On the other hand we remain relatively free to roam where and when we wish, so why should that 'right' continue?  

People virtually fight tooth and nail to keep footpaths open, well, they are rights of way just as are our tidal waterways. Lose one right and that heightens the risk of losing others. Moorings are another example, in years gone by we freely moored pretty much where and when we wished, those days have gone.

Once our ancestors freely sailed across Hoveton Great Broads, another 'right' lost. I have long regarded the present executive as being untrustworthy, that he achieves his 'vision' with a gently gently, lose the monkey approach.  The little people have certainly given inches and lost a few miles.

Had the the more recent Broads Bill gone through, unchallenged, then we would have lost many, many more miles. The ethos of the Broads has always been pretty laid back, rules kept to a minimum, accepted or changed by common consent, those days have gone, obsessive control is now the name of the game. 

These blessed road signs are just another example of the erosion that has become a feature of Yare House. Do I honestly believe the assurances that we have been given? Do I heck! To many examples of loud pronouncements that are later forgotten or are subsequently adjusted and re-adjusted. Not so long ago we were told 'no signs',  ho ho ho, see what I mean? Perhaps a few of us feel that we have a loss of trust, what comes next I wonder?

Devious, untrustworthy and manipulative are words that immediately spring to mind.

[marshman]

ST - how I take delight in keeping you guessing!!!!  But do not assume that just because I appear to disagree with PW a lot, we are that different in our objectives - what I dislike most is how some are so negative about everything the BA does and it is so readily assumed that what some say is always right, when in fact the vast majority of members of this, and other Forums may well have a more "benevolent" view of that organisation.

The last post continues to lambast that organisation, rightly or wrongly, but my view has always been that you should not moan all the time, or indeed find fault over what IMHO, and I suspect others too, see as not a great deal and certainly be aware that this constant negativity and finding fault is not supported by everyone and he would do well to remember the fable of Peter (!) and the Wolf!! I shall save myself for the real battles and not imaginary ones!

Anyhow enough of all this for the time being, I am just going to nip down to the boat to see whether all is still well with reality!!

[JennyMorgan]

Marsh, by the time the monkey has been lost it will be too late. Best keep on your toes. Do you really believe that the battle is not real? No, well you would say that!

[D46]

1 hour ago, marshman said:

ST - how I take delight in keeping you guessing!!!!  But do not assume that just because I appear to disagree with PW a lot, we are that different in our objectives - what I dislike most is how some are so negative about everything the BA does and it is so readily assumed that what some say is always right, when in fact the vast majority of members of this, and other Forums may well have a more "benevolent" view of that organisation.

The last post continues to lambast that organisation, rightly or wrongly, but my view has always been that you should not moan all the time, or indeed find fault over what IMHO, and I suspect others too, see as not a great deal and certainly be aware that this constant negativity and finding fault is not supported by everyone and he would do well to remember the fable of Peter (!) and the Wolf!! I shall save myself for the real battles and not imaginary ones!

Anyhow enough of all this for the time being, I am just going to nip down to the boat to see whether all is still well with reality!!

Keep folk guessing your not kidding there , most have the conviction to agree with one side or the other , I admire that regardless of if I agree with them or not , that fence must be pretty uncomfortable by now , I referred earlier to the canals and had it not been for people power and getting onboard the transport minister then they would be highly likely shut right now .

The same can easily happen here , don't just think of the loss of the hire boat industry but think about all this business that help to support it and the £££ spent in the Broads , there is no way other tourists even with an increase in foot fall will make up the loss .

Jobs will be lost on mass and that includes within BA .

And for what exactly ? Because someone had a dream of what they wanted .

Some folk might trust BA but thousands don't send it's that but they seam to ignore and the longer that lack of trust goes on then the worse it will get , business will give up and pretty soon there will be nothing left .

This whole national park thing is driven from one sorce and has absolutely nothing to do with increasing tourism and building a better area , but everything to do with one person's perception of what they want .

[batrabill]

I think the “lack of trust” is actually less than many would think. There are thousand of toll payers and tens of thousands who live in the Broads.

 

I read negative things about The Broads every single day, on Facebook, forums, and the EDP comments section, but the vast majority are from about half a dozen people. I won’t name them all but most will be known to many.

In fact, I believe that the most influential voice in the Broads after Dr Packman is PW. That is why, when our friend posts a lot of nonsense on here I pop up to challenge him.

Without him, and the others I think there would be a different impression.

 

 

 

 

[D46]

50 minutes ago, batrabill said:

I think the “lack of trust” is actually less than many would think. There are thousand of toll payers and tens of thousands who live in the Broads.

 

I read negative things about The Broads every single day, on Facebook, forums, and the EDP comments section, but the vast majority are from about half a dozen people. I won’t name them all but most will be known to many.

In fact, I believe that the most influential voice in the Broads after Dr Packman is PW. That is why, when our friend posts a lot of nonsense on here I pop up to challenge him.

Without him, and the others I think there would be a different impression.

 

 

 

 

Exactly without PW and others it would be much different .

Unfortunately your missing the point , that being they believe in the broads , love and cherish the place etc , if you really think that the level of mistrust is purely driven by a seriously small minority you are very very mistaken , many people are not vocal on socal media about the issue they simply remove or sell their boat etc .

The problem with BA stem's from the fact they are accountable to nobody , they simply don't have to do anything other than what they want , they certainly are not a friend of boater's regardless of hire or private .

You only need to look at this yrs increase in tolls , the navigation committee I believe didn't want that mooring in Suffolk but the CEO did n he's calling the shots,  and it's just the same on other projects , look at what happens if someone disagrees with him ! .

If you really want to know what folks think then ask them face to face , lots of them are not on here or socal media but they do pay towards BA and trust me they are not happy , incidentally on this thread I can only see 2 people who think BA is doing just fine and there's nothing to worry about .

More importantly the more folk are told to suck it up and stop complaining the usual outcome is it esculates and more are happy to have their voice heard .

[Paladin]

21 hours ago, Polly said:

Being a bit dim here.....

as I read Sandford, there was also a requirement to protect the cultural heritage of the area. In our case that is surely navigation without too big a stretch of the wording?

If you think cultural heritage is being interpreted as relating to the past, think again. In a current BA document, the BNP signs are listed as coming under the Department/Category of "Conservation of Cultural Heritage".

It’s noticeable that, in the document, expenditure on things like riverbank tree clearance, raking/plough dredging (is this of the Bure at Gt Yarmouth) and the launch ‘Liana’ refit aren’t attributed to "the interests of the navigation”, so the bulk of that money should come out of the NP grant. I wonder if it will.

 

 

 

[batrabill]

So it’s fairly clear you’re assuming I don’t believe in the Broads, or love or cherish it?

Bit presumptuous. 

When did criticising the BA for pretty much everything it ever does become the criterion for loving the Broads?

That’s false logic  

I ask you, apart from not liking paying tolls, what is so terrible about the Broads?

Because one of terrible consequences of this constant spinning of how awful everything is, is that it sounds like the Broads must be a terrible place. But where I live it seems just fine  

 

[Vaughan]

4 minutes ago, batrabill said:

I ask you, apart from not liking paying tolls, what is so terrible about the Broads?

 

Not a lot, to be honest. When you consider all the things that have happened, both globally and locally, over the 60 years and more that I can personally remember.

What worries me is the future. Are all these wonderful visions, from the BA, the RSPB and Uncle Tom Cobley, actually a Sword of Damocles that is hanging over us? That, for me, is what we must always be wary of.

[batrabill]

16 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Not a lot, to be honest. When you consider all the things that have happened, both globally and locally, over the 60 years and more that I can personally remember.

What worries me is the future. Are all these wonderful visions, from the BA, the RSPB and Uncle Tom Cobley, actually a Sword of Damocles that is hanging over us? That, for me, is what we must always be wary of.

Vaughan, no one would argue against being aware of possible threats, but I am arguing that there is constant spin against everything the BA does. I don’t believe that “most people” buy into that but threads here often read like everyone does agree with one specific viewpoint. 

[D46]

26 minutes ago, batrabill said:

So it’s fairly clear you’re assuming I don’t believe in the Broads, or love or cherish it?

Bit presumptuous. 

When did criticising the BA for pretty much everything it ever does become the criterion for loving the Broads?

That’s false logic  

I ask you, apart from not liking paying tolls, what is so terrible about the Broads?

Because one of terrible consequences of this constant spinning of how awful everything is, is that it sounds like the Broads must be a terrible place. But where I live it seems just fine  

 

And yet here you are putting words into my mouth , when exactly did I State I didn't like paying tolls ?? 

What I object to is yr on yr increases for funding one person's dream , tolls have to be paid but they can be contained to a degree if such expenditure is held back , ba waste money hand over fist  time and time again , any public company using their own money would have either given up or gone bust , but hey there's the captive audience ie the toll payers that ur on yr are forced into increases , yes there will be an annual increase but that shouldn't include for paying for things that most don't want .

The only thing terrible about the broads is the way it's currently being run nothing else .

I never said you don't love etc the broads but I did say your of the opinion that most people think everything is perfect in the way the Broads are run and unfortunately I know from asking folk that pay BA that's not the case .

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, batrabill said:

In fact, I believe that the most influential voice in the Broads after Dr Packman is PW.

Thank you, Bill, I will take that as a compliment, even if it were not intended.

First comes the fire and secondly comes the smoke, I am the smoke, as are numerous other concerned folk.

 No fire, no smoke.

[JennyMorgan]

45 minutes ago, batrabill said:

I am arguing that there is constant spin against everything the BA does.

Is there really? This whole thread was triggered by just one topic, that being the BNP and matters relating to it. 

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

3 hours ago, marshman said:

ST - how I take delight in keeping you guessing!!!!  But do not assume that just because I appear to disagree with PW a lot, we are that different in our objectives - what I dislike most is how some are so negative about everything the BA does and it is so readily assumed that what some say is always right, when in fact the vast majority of members of this, and other Forums may well have a more "benevolent" view of that organisation.

The last post continues to lambast that organisation, rightly or wrongly, but my view has always been that you should not moan all the time, or indeed find fault over what IMHO, and I suspect others too, see as not a great deal and certainly be aware that this constant negativity and finding fault is not supported by everyone and he would do well to remember the fable of Peter (!) and the Wolf!! I shall save myself for the real battles and not imaginary ones!

Anyhow enough of all this for the time being, I am just going to nip down to the boat to see whether all is still well with reality!!

mm, i will always respect your opinion, but only yours, but in your post here, you say - "when in fact the vast majority of members of this, and other forums may well have a more benevolent view of that organisation". first of all, that point sounds to me (i can`t speak for others) appears you are taking for granted the vast majority agree with you, yet by the use of the term "may well have" means you do not know?.  Then in the second paragraph you say - "but my view has always been that you should not moan all the time, or indeed find fault over what IMHO, and i suspect others too", .................. Yet again, you are assuming others on this forum agree with you?.

"I shall save myself for the real battles and not imaginary ones". The FACT that the BA said the NP branding is only for marketing purposes, yet are putting up signs claiming it actually IS an NP, that`s hardly imaginary, it`s as your last words say REALITY. 

The way you always stand up for the BA re their claim that the broads are an NP seems pretty likely to me (i can`t say for others) that you wish it was. 

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

2 hours ago, D46 said:

This whole national park thing is driven from one sorce and has absolutely nothing to do with increasing tourism and building a better area , but everything to do with one person's perception of what they want .

And the increase in power that he will get.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

2 hours ago, batrabill said:

 Without him, and the others I think there would be a different impression.

You think, or you hope?

[JennyMorgan]

2 minutes ago, SPEEDTRIPLE said:

And the increase in power that he will get.

And there lies the problem.

He tried to close Horsey Mere with threats of huge fines, if he'd had Sandford then he would have succeeded.

[Paladin]

2 hours ago, batrabill said:

I think the “lack of trust” is actually less than many would think. There are thousand of toll payers and tens of thousands who live in the Broads.

I read negative things about The Broads every single day, on Facebook, forums, and the EDP comments section, but the vast majority are from about half a dozen people. I won’t name them all but most will be known to many.

In fact, I believe that the most influential voice in the Broads after Dr Packman is PW. That is why, when our friend posts a lot of nonsense on here I pop up to challenge him.

Without him, and the others I think there would be a different impression.

 

1 hour ago, batrabill said:

Vaughan, no one would argue against being aware of possible threats, but I am arguing that there is constant spin against everything the BA does. I don’t believe that “most people” buy into that but threads here often read like everyone does agree with one specific viewpoint. 

There are as many opinions as there are members. There are those who support the BA, regardless of their performance and others who will find fault in everything they do. But I thought I'd look away from the forums for a few moments and revisit the reactions and responses to the BNP rebranding consultation. Again, some embraced the idea wholeheartedly, but others displayed a high level of suspicion about motives.

A lack of trust was very apparent. These aren't individuals, but organisations with deep roots in the Broads, including some parish councils. Given that BNP signs have been erected in Acle, the Acle PC response to the rebranding consultation is most interesting. Rather than put the comments in a lengthy post I have attached a Word document, which anyone can read, or not.

Comments re BNP rebranding.docx