Dishonesty Regarding Toll Rise?

[JennyMorgan]

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/politics/broads-authority-toll-rise-charges-petrol-and-diesel-users-more-1-6470064

[Paladin]

"Mr Mogford asked whether the money would be spent on actions to combat climate change, and said: "It is slightly dishonest to say that it's to do with global warming when we're pinching it and using it to do something else."

But Mr Packman said the rise would always have been a 2.8pc increase for all boat users, but the differentiation sent a message."

It certainly does!  

 

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

Yet another example of a "dishonest" Unelected authority cashing in on the now seriously boring global warming / climate change lie. And guess what, there's absolutely NOTHING we can do about it. Global warming was only ever a scientific theory, NOT fact, which became extremely politically advantageous, and climate change, and its effects has been going on since this planet existed, this time a fact, but again, a politically advantageous fact, which has NEVER been and never CAN be man made. 

It's just a shame so many people are so gullable in that they need to believe in some cause, rather than to believe in themselves. 

[Paladin]

Higher tolls for diesel hire craft will mean higher prices for the hirers. Some may consider it better value to take a package holiday and I bet one tourist flight to, say, Greece, will produce more harmful emissions on one trip than a all the motor cruisers on the Broads do in a year.

[floydraser]

Excuse me as the new boy but we have the names of a couple of objectors and the Chairman but it says the rise was agreed by the members. So what was the process for voting and who were the members who agreed with the Chairman?

[JennyMorgan]

31 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Excuse me as the new boy but we have the names of a couple of objectors and the Chairman but it says the rise was agreed by the members. So what was the process for voting and who were the members who agreed with the Chairman?

Regretfully the majority of members repeatedly add weight to the accusation that they are poodles and easily led, witness the BNP road sign debacle.

[Paladin]

31 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Excuse me as the new boy but we have the names of a couple of objectors and the Chairman but it says the rise was agreed by the members. So what was the process for voting and who were the members who agreed with the Chairman?

The voting takes place at a regular meeting of the Broads Authority. This particular meeting took place last November and the minutes won't be available until 7 days before the next meeting, which is at the end of this month. The actual votes for and against any resolution aren't recorded by name.

You might find it helpful to familiarise yourself with the Broads Authority web site, on which you can find minutes of their various committees, policies of one sort or another, bye laws, sundy information about boating, planning etc., and, of course, BNP propaganda.

[JennyMorgan]

There has long been a differential of tolls between power and sail so really there should be no surprises there. 

What I do find annoying is that much of the rise is to provide a second 24hr mooring in Oulton Dyke, in this instance to provide access to a rather splendid new nature reserve.

Having paid for this extravagance, a one off event, I wonder if the toll will be suitably reduced next year, some hope! 

Will this unfair rise encourage people to discard their gas guzzling motor cruisers and invest in a pair of oars or even to buy a sailing boat? I somehow doubt it!

[Paladin]

I note that the three current threads related to the Broads Authority have been removed from public view to the Members’ Chat Area. As a matter of personal policy, I do not subscribe to discussions behind closed doors, so I will absent myself from those debates.

[Chelsea14Ian]

I like many have a diesel boat,its my guess that there probley less then 10% of boaters that have electric boats.What would happen if we all went electric. Dont think these enough charging points on the river.

[floydraser]

3 hours ago, Paladin said:

Higher tolls for diesel hire craft will mean higher prices for the hirers. Some may consider it better value to take a package holiday and I bet one tourist flight to, say, Greece, will produce more harmful emissions on one trip than a all the motor cruisers on the Broads do in a year.

Absolutely! I guess they found it easier to tick the environmental box by kicking the ic engine fraterternity rather thinking about it a bit longer and realising it will also become unfashionable to fly for leisure purposes. They have missed an opportunity to take advantage if/when more people holiday "at home".

I will look into the workings of the BA in due course and also a National Park. I notice mention of a "National Park Grant" in the report.

I would gladly convert my boat to electric if it were practical but it just isn't. The main drawback at this time in history is that the technology and marketplace has not developed enough to the point where most of us would be willing to spend the money. Caning fossil fueled engines is more likely to end with scrap boats as we turn away from boating. 

[JennyMorgan]

33 minutes ago, Chelsea14Ian said:

I like many have a diesel boat,its my guess that there probley less then 10% of boaters that have electric boats.What would happen if we all went electric. Dont think these enough charging points on the river.

Perhaps power points should be reserved for charging batteries that are used for propulsion? Perhaps not!!

[JennyMorgan]

5 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Caning fossil fueled engines is more likely to end with scrap boats as we turn away from boating. 

Not tempted to take up sailing then?

[Chelsea14Ian]

24 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Perhaps power points should be reserved for charging batteries that are used for propulsion? Perhaps not!!

We dont even have shore power ,but in recent years most boats do.Theres just not enough charging points Peter as for sailing, I would like to give it a go,however not for me long term.

[floydraser]

1 hour ago, JennyMorgan said:

Not tempted to take up sailing then?

Tried it, didn't like it. I learned exactly why they put engines in boats!

[JennyMorgan]

10 hours ago, floydraser said:

I notice mention of a "National Park Grant" in the report.

This is expedient for HMG book keepers, the money has to come from somewhere and the NP coffers are, I suppose, convenient! Not sure when and where the term actually came from but it shouldn't be seen as a ministerial endorsement for BA Ambitions. Perhaps it should be referred to as the DEFRA Grant.

[JennyMorgan]

Further to the mythical NP grant, a little dicky bird has reminded me that it was a phrase coined by you know who. The  Act actually says: 

15 Grants from Secretary of State.

(1)The Secretary of State may, with the consent of the Treasury, make grants to the Authority for such purposes, and on such terms and conditions, as he thinks fit.

So there, and no names!

[ChrisB]

As part of "The Family" they are not treated differently to the rest of the NP's by the majority organisations. It appears to me that it is only boaters and a few folk whose nose is out of joint due to planning disagreements who see dark deeds everywhere.

For instance this FOI paper classifies The Broads with all the rest when their NP Grant was slashed. It is an interesting document as it encourages the NPs to become more open to the commercial world as a way of boosting income.

Final national Stop the Cuts briefing July 2015(1).pdf

[JennyMorgan]

50 minutes ago, ChrisB said:

For instance this FOI paper classifies The Broads with all the rest when their NP Grant was slashed.

And just after the NP & Secretary of State grants were slashed the BA made a few token cuts before triggering a major hike in tolls in order to make up the shortfall.

[Paladin]

1 hour ago, ChrisB said:

As part of "The Family" they are not treated differently to the rest of the NP's by the majority organisations. It appears to me that it is only boaters and a few folk whose nose is out of joint due to planning disagreements who see dark deeds everywhere.

For instance this FOI paper classifies The Broads with all the rest when their NP Grant was slashed. It is an interesting document as it encourages the NPs to become more open to the commercial world as a way of boosting income.

Final national Stop the Cuts briefing July 2015(1).pdf 244.33 kB · 5 downloads

That report says, “Yet, their budgets are relatively small and are decreasing. Public spending on National Parks in England costs considerably less than £1 per person per year.”

It should be noted that, while the Secretary of State grant to the Broads has decreased, the income from the boaters (hire as well as private) through the tolls has substantially increased. The conservation/navigation balance has also been further skewed, with the navigation costs proportion somehow increasing. National Parks were urged to cut their costs to match the funding cuts. That didn’t happen in the Broads.

On top of the less than £1 per year that it is said I pay towards national parks, the Broads Authority received another £448.47 from me in tolls last year (soon to go up to £461.92).

Is it any wonder that boaters take a keen interest in what goes on in Yare House?

[Bytheriver]

Genuine question - how do the Broads compare with the Canal & River Trust This is their 2019-20 chart as it looks like they do not publish till Feb

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/thumbnail/39214-boat-licence-fees-2019-20.pdf

Also an interesting media report with some statistics.

https://www.citymetric.com/politics/canal-river-trust-local-council-hiding-charity-s-clothing-4353

[ChrisB]

The answer is: boating inland elsewhere, or on the sea when compared, The Broads come out ""As Cheap as Chips""  

Folks will say there are no locks to maintain, or major dredging, like say, Poole.etc, but The BA still represent very good value for money. And the mooring facilities are good and very cheap all over.

I like others, but for my own reasons do not wish to contribute to this type of discussion any more. I have always been a champion of boating rights, but can't defend the "Sacred Cow" of polluting ex- hire boats and still in hire boats and privates of a certain age not paying a higher proportion of The Broads budget. Hopefully in years to come The Broads could be an example of sustainable "Eco" boating combining sail, electric, paddle and oar.

[Paladin]

22 minutes ago, ChrisB said:

 Hopefully in years to come The Broads could be an example of sustainable "Eco" boating combining sail, electric, paddle and oar.

I hardly think so. If the hire and private polluting motor craft are squeezed out by unrealistic pricing, the tolls for those "Eco" boats would have to soar, to pay the difference. I doubt whether the "Eco" sailers and paddlers would want to pay for it.

The navigation would still need dredging. Even a Yeoman (open 20' keelboat, for those who are wondering) draws 3', which is 7" more than my motor cruiser. Many "Eco" sailing cruisers draw more.

How "Eco" are sails made of petrochemical products? How "Eco" are glassfibre hulls?

And electric boating is hardly "Eco". Sea-bed destruction through mining for rare-earth elements required for the batteries is just one drawback, not to mention the enormous cost (and soil disturbance) of providing sufficient charging points. But even Dr Packman admits the technology is nowhere near ready. Perhaps, in years to come...

[Paladin]

1 hour ago, Bytheriver said:

Genuine question - how do the Broads compare with the Canal & River Trust This is their 2019-20 chart as it looks like they do not publish till Feb

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/thumbnail/39214-boat-licence-fees-2019-20.pdf

Also an interesting media report with some statistics.

https://www.citymetric.com/politics/canal-river-trust-local-council-hiding-charity-s-clothing-4353

The comparison between the Broads and the CaRT costs is also used by the BA to justify tolls increases, but the comparison is unrealistic for so many reasons.

But cost comparisons? Well, the toll for my grp cruiser on the Broads last year was £448.41. If I took it to CaRT territory and licensed it for the rivers, it would cost £370.43.

Yes, it would cost £617.39 if I took out a licence for canals as well, but could I realistically use a 12’ beam grp boat on the canals? I don’t think so.

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, ChrisB said:

The answer is: boating inland elsewhere, or on the sea when compared, The Broads come out ""As Cheap as Chips""  

Folks will say there are no locks to maintain, or major dredging, like say, Poole.etc, but The BA still represent very good value for money. And the mooring facilities are good and very cheap all over.

I like others, but for my own reasons do not wish to contribute to this type of discussion any more. I have always been a champion of boating rights, but can't defend the "Sacred Cow" of polluting ex- hire boats and still in hire boats and privates of a certain age not paying a higher proportion of The Broads budget. Hopefully in years to come The Broads could be an example of sustainable "Eco" boating combining sail, electric, paddle and oar.

While I respect your right to your opinion I have to disagree on several points.

Firstly the percentage of income  the BA receives from  tolls is almost double that received by the C&RT , the amount of moorings and services are far  more extensive on the canals than the broads plus the canal  network provides access to most of the Uk so there really is no comparison.

Back to the OP the BA is a non political authority and the tolls are for the upkeep of the navigation, they are not and should not be a form of social-economic taxation and I wonder on the legality of this use.

Fred