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JennyMorgan

Likely Impact On The Broads?

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Nigel, there are deadlines and there are deadlines. Some achieve results others seem not to. Ti illustrate I would use your own example of JFK and the moon landing, but put Brexit against it. So many deadlines, so many politicians.

The issue with Greta is her age. If she had been an adult, she would have been a genuine target for cross examination, she would have been lampooned by comedians, unmercifully shot down by some of the press, and verbally attacked by the disagreeing politicians. BUT... She is not yet quite an adult, she is a child. She has not formed these ideas from her own experience and original research, she is acting as a voice for other adults, but it is her age which is her armour... and it is (in my opinion) THAT which makes the politicians fear her.

Whether what she says is correct or no I don't know. I have listened to many people, each far cleverer than I am, some agreeing with Greta, others not. so in fairness to both sides I have to remain on the fence. 

Experience has shown me that one of the ways society has changed is the weight we give to the views held by children and the younger adults. Gone is the respect that used to by given to the words of our elders, Now we encourage our university graduates to "Think outside the box", to come up with new ideas, or, to put it another way, re-invent the wheel.

I would say we have "thrown out the baby with the bathwater" but it's worse than that, we now listen to the baby, do what it tells us and ignore the many years of experience we accrued. 

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8 hours ago, woodwose said:

I was going to say that climate change issues are too important to leave to politicians to sort out, and I still think that. However, to give them their due, I think that moving the dates back and setting a deadline to start the phase out of fossil fuels is actually a really good idea. You ask JFK and Neil Armstrong about the power of a deadline. It's do or die time for the car companies. It's probably quite an exciting time to work in the automotive industry. Whenever there is change there are opportunities. The best will seize them.

Thinking about some of the other stuff in this thread, I recall learning in the Debating Society at School that some types of argument are proper debate and some are not. So for example:

"I disagree with Nigel for the following excellent reasons" is proper debate.

"Nigel must be an idiot to think that way" is not proper debate.

We learned that if your only argument is a personal attack on your opponent then you have already lost the argument.

So this is why I think that Greta is so good. She holds the politicians (and others) to account and tells them how it is. You can see that they fear her and have no counter argument, so all they have left is a personal attack. However, as I learned at school, if you make a personal attack then the argument is already lost.

As Robin Day once said, politicians are here today and gone tomorrow, but Greta represents the future. I would be a lot happier in a future based on her vision.

Nigel ( Sunny Ludham)

While I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge and agree with you on the art of debate I cant agree regarding Greta.

If you listen to her speeches with an open mind they are quite clearly written for her  they are not the words of a teenager, to me she is quite clearly an appointed spokes person probably choosen for her appeal to the younger generations and the protection her age gives her, there is also quite a considerable amount of funding behind her given hers and her fathers travels etc she is certainly not a simple little girl with a cause.

Fred

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Greta Thunberg

Recently I’ve seen many rumors circulating about me and enormous amounts of hate. This is no surprise to me. I know that since most people are not aware of the full meaning of the climate crisis (which is understandable since it has never been treated as a crisis) a school strike for the climate would seem very strange to people in general.
So let me make some things clear about my school strike.
 
In may 2018 I was one of the winners in a writing competition about the environment held by Svenska Dagbladet, a Swedish newspaper. I got my article published and some people contacted me, among others was Bo Thorén from Fossil Free Dalsland. He had some kind of group with people, especially youth, who wanted to do something about the climate crisis.
I had a few phone meetings with other activists. The purpose was to come up with ideas of new projects that would bring attention to the climate crisis. Bo had a few ideas of things we could do. Everything from marches to a loose idea of some kind of a school strike (that school children would do something on the schoolyards or in the classrooms). That idea was inspired by the Parkland Students, who had refused to go to school after the school shootings.
I liked the idea of a school strike. So I developed that idea and tried to get the other young people to join me, but no one was really interested. They thought that a Swedish version of the Zero Hour march was going to have a bigger impact. So I went on planning the school strike all by myself and after that I didn’t participate in any more meetings.
 
When I told my parents about my plans they weren’t very fond of it. They did not support the idea of school striking and they said that if I were to do this I would have to do it completely by myself and with no support from them.
On the 20 of august I sat down outside the Swedish Parliament. I handed out fliers with a long list of facts about the climate crisis and explanations on why I was striking. The first thing I did was to post on Twitter and Instagram what I was doing and it soon went viral. Then journalists and newspapers started to come. A Swedish entrepreneur and business man active in the climate movement, Ingmar Rentzhog, was among the first to arrive. He spoke with me and took pictures that he posted on Facebook. That was the first time I had ever met or spoken with him. I had not communicated or encountered with him ever before.
 
Many people love to spread rumors saying that I have people ”behind me” or that I’m being ”paid” or ”used” to do what I’m doing. But there is no one ”behind” me except for  myself. My parents were as far from climate activists as possible before I made them aware of the situation.
I am not part of any organization. I sometimes support and cooperate with several NGOs that work with the climate and environment. But I am absolutely independent and I only represent myself. And I do what I do completely for free, I have not received any money or any promise of future payments in any form at all. And nor has anyone linked to me or my family done so.
And of course it will stay this way. I have not met one single climate activist who is  fighting for the climate for money. That idea is completely absurd.
Furthermore I only travel with permission from my school and my parents pay for tickets and accommodations.
 
My family has written a book together about our family and how me and my sister Beata have influenced my parents way of thinking and seeing the world, especially when it comes to the climate. And about our diagnoses.
That book was due to be released in May. But since there was a major disagreement with the book company, we ended up changing to a new publisher and so the book was released in august instead.
Before the book was released my parents made it clear that their possible profits from the book ”Scener ur hjärtat” will be going to 8 different charities working with environment, children with diagnoses and animal rights.
 
And yes, I write my own speeches. But since I know that what I say is going to reach many, many people I often ask for input. I also have a few scientists that I frequently ask for help on how to express certain complicated matters. I want everything to be absolutely correct so that I don’t spread incorrect facts, or things that can be misunderstood.
 
Some people mock me for my diagnosis. But Asperger is not a disease, it’s a gift. People also say that since I have Asperger I couldn’t possibly have put myself in this position. But that’s exactly why I did this. Because if I would have been ”normal” and social I would have organized myself in an organisation, or started an organisation by myself. But since I am not that good at socializing I did this instead. I was so frustrated that nothing was being done about the climate crisis and I felt like I had to do something, anything. And sometimes NOT doing things - like just sitting down outside the parliament - speaks much louder than doing things. Just like a whisper sometimes is louder than shouting.
 
Also there is one complaint that I ”sound and write like an adult”. And to that I can only say; don’t you think that a 16-year old can speak for herself? There’s also some people who say that I oversimplify things. For example when I say that "the climate crisis is a black and white issue”, ”we need to stop the emissions of greenhouse gases” and ”I want you to panic”. But that I only say because it’s true. Yes, the climate crisis is the most complex issue that we have ever faced and it’s going to take everything from our part to ”stop it”. But the solution is black and white; we need to stop the emissions of greenhouse gases.
Because either we limit the warming to 1,5 degrees C over pre industrial levels, or we don’t. Either we reach a tipping point where we start a chain reaction with events way beyond human control, or we don’t. Either we go on as a civilization, or we don’t. There are no gray areas when it comes to survival.
And when I say that I want you to panic I mean that we need to treat the crisis as a crisis. When your house is on fire you don’t sit down and talk about how nice you can rebuild it once you put out the fire. If your house is on fire you run outside and make sure that everyone is out while you call the fire department. That requires some level of panic.
 
There is one other argument that I can’t do anything about. And that is the fact that I’m ”just a child and we shouldn’t be listening to children.” But that is easily fixed - just start to listen to the rock solid science instead. Because if everyone listened to the scientists and the facts that I constantly refer to - then no one would have to listen to me or any of the other hundreds of thousands of school children on strike for the climate across the world. Then we could all go back to school.
I am just a messenger, and yet I get all this hate. I am not saying anything new, I am just saying what scientists have repeatedly said for decades. And I agree with you, I’m too young to do this. We children shouldn’t have to do this. But since almost no one is doing anything, and our very future is at risk, we feel like we have to continue.
 
 
And if you have any other concern or doubt about me, then you can listen to my TED talk (

), in which I talk about how my interest for the climate and environment began.  
 
And thank you everyone for you kind support! It brings me hope.
/Greta
Ps I was briefly a youth advisor for the board of the non profit foundation “We don’t have time”. It turns out they used my name as part of another branch of their organisation that is a start up business. They have admitted clearly that they did so without the knowledge of me or my family. I no longer have any connection to “We don’t have time”. Nor has anyone in my family. They have deeply apologised and I have accepted their apolo

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Bill, it would have been better if you just posted a link to the above -

https://www.facebook.com/gretathunbergsweden/posts/recently-ive-seen-many-rumors-circulating-about-me-and-enormous-amounts-of-hate-/767646880269801/

then people could have read it in the original context, and with the full text

remember in speakers corner :-

Support your argument.
If you refer to a document make sure you list that document in the 'library thread' and link to that entry in your post so that everyone has access to the full document.

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sorry i just added to my reply, re adding a link, basically if you are going to quote huge chunks its good to attribute them to the source with a link. this then enables people to go to the horses mouth so to speak

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To BatraBill. I have just found a snippet of 'internet slang'  that not only do I like, but it seems to me to apply here too.

MRDA. :-)

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I agree there are many different typres of deadlines. However, I don't think the fossil fuel deadline can be compared to Brexit. You see, in the case of Brexit, not only was the deadline set by politicians but it had to be implemented by politicians. This is something they are clearly not good at. In the case of the fossil fuel deadline, this will be implemented not by politicians but by automotive engineers. They will do it with not only the future of the company in the balance, but also with the knowledge that whoever gets the best solution will make a lot of money.

I agree that people are advising and funding Greta. She could not do it otherwise. I also suspect that it would be hard indeed to get her to say something she did not believe in. The funding and advice available to her is just a drop in the (warming) ocean compared to that available to her opponents. Yet still they fear her and have no counter argument. Making a personal attack on her only strengthens her position and is completely counterproductive.

As for listening to young people, I think that is extremely important. Their minds are not cluttered with thoughts of maintaining the status quo. They have imagination and fantastic visions of the future. It might take someone with a bit of knowledge and practical experience to turn the dreams into reality but you can't beat a good idea.

Nigel (Scout Leader, Ludham)

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2 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

To BatraBill. I have just found a snippet of 'internet slang'  that not only do I like, but it seems to me to apply here too.

MRDA. :-)

But that is the excuse used by all people with closed minds. We are living in times where a significant minority of people genuinely believe that vaccinating children against lethal diseases is a bad thing, and when you show them the evidence they tell you it’s s huge conspiracy by Big Pharma (and of course all the million doctors on the planet)

For some it has become a real sickness in that they believe everyone in power is lying (but cranks on the internet, a bloke down the pub and Nigel Farage ars the only ones telling the truth)

That way madness lies. 

 

I dont know much about Greta Thunberg but I do think the puppet idea is loony tunes. 

But then I would say that.  

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I know what I think, we have gone way outside and beyond the original question. No harm in going off tangent or in sidelining  but there are extremes!

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Only one thing to say

Read the founding articles of the UNFCC.

Which leads to the 

IPCC.

 

Read the report Chapter one of their latest report . Not the summary for policy makers which is “influenced” to say the least. 
 

Chapter one is the science without the opinions tacked on. No might or could or perhaps for which science holds no place.

 

Remember this, science cares not one iota what you choose to believe it matters what you can prove. Provide the Null Hypothesis ( look it up) and then read chapter one....

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On 09/02/2020 at 08:59, batrabill said:

Greta Thunberg

Recently I’ve seen many rumors circulating about me and enormous amounts of hate. This is no surprise to me. I know that since most people are not aware of the full meaning of the climate crisis (which is understandable since it has never been treated as a crisis) a school strike for the climate would seem very strange to people in general.
So let me make some things clear about my school strike.
 
In may 2018 I was one of the winners in a writing competition about the environment held by Svenska Dagbladet, a Swedish newspaper. I got my article published and some people contacted me, among others was Bo Thorén from Fossil Free Dalsland. He had some kind of group with people, especially youth, who wanted to do something about the climate crisis.
I had a few phone meetings with other activists. The purpose was to come up with ideas of new projects that would bring attention to the climate crisis. Bo had a few ideas of things we could do. Everything from marches to a loose idea of some kind of a school strike (that school children would do something on the schoolyards or in the classrooms). That idea was inspired by the Parkland Students, who had refused to go to school after the school shootings.
I liked the idea of a school strike. So I developed that idea and tried to get the other young people to join me, but no one was really interested. They thought that a Swedish version of the Zero Hour march was going to have a bigger impact. So I went on planning the school strike all by myself and after that I didn’t participate in any more meetings.
 
When I told my parents about my plans they weren’t very fond of it. They did not support the idea of school striking and they said that if I were to do this I would have to do it completely by myself and with no support from them.
On the 20 of august I sat down outside the Swedish Parliament. I handed out fliers with a long list of facts about the climate crisis and explanations on why I was striking. The first thing I did was to post on Twitter and Instagram what I was doing and it soon went viral. Then journalists and newspapers started to come. A Swedish entrepreneur and business man active in the climate movement, Ingmar Rentzhog, was among the first to arrive. He spoke with me and took pictures that he posted on Facebook. That was the first time I had ever met or spoken with him. I had not communicated or encountered with him ever before.
 
Many people love to spread rumors saying that I have people ”behind me” or that I’m being ”paid” or ”used” to do what I’m doing. But there is no one ”behind” me except for  myself. My parents were as far from climate activists as possible before I made them aware of the situation.
I am not part of any organization. I sometimes support and cooperate with several NGOs that work with the climate and environment. But I am absolutely independent and I only represent myself. And I do what I do completely for free, I have not received any money or any promise of future payments in any form at all. And nor has anyone linked to me or my family done so.
And of course it will stay this way. I have not met one single climate activist who is  fighting for the climate for money. That idea is completely absurd.
Furthermore I only travel with permission from my school and my parents pay for tickets and accommodations.
 
My family has written a book together about our family and how me and my sister Beata have influenced my parents way of thinking and seeing the world, especially when it comes to the climate. And about our diagnoses.
That book was due to be released in May. But since there was a major disagreement with the book company, we ended up changing to a new publisher and so the book was released in august instead.
Before the book was released my parents made it clear that their possible profits from the book ”Scener ur hjärtat” will be going to 8 different charities working with environment, children with diagnoses and animal rights.
 
And yes, I write my own speeches. But since I know that what I say is going to reach many, many people I often ask for input. I also have a few scientists that I frequently ask for help on how to express certain complicated matters. I want everything to be absolutely correct so that I don’t spread incorrect facts, or things that can be misunderstood.
 
Some people mock me for my diagnosis. But Asperger is not a disease, it’s a gift. People also say that since I have Asperger I couldn’t possibly have put myself in this position. But that’s exactly why I did this. Because if I would have been ”normal” and social I would have organized myself in an organisation, or started an organisation by myself. But since I am not that good at socializing I did this instead. I was so frustrated that nothing was being done about the climate crisis and I felt like I had to do something, anything. And sometimes NOT doing things - like just sitting down outside the parliament - speaks much louder than doing things. Just like a whisper sometimes is louder than shouting.
 
Also there is one complaint that I ”sound and write like an adult”. And to that I can only say; don’t you think that a 16-year old can speak for herself? There’s also some people who say that I oversimplify things. For example when I say that "the climate crisis is a black and white issue”, ”we need to stop the emissions of greenhouse gases” and ”I want you to panic”. But that I only say because it’s true. Yes, the climate crisis is the most complex issue that we have ever faced and it’s going to take everything from our part to ”stop it”. But the solution is black and white; we need to stop the emissions of greenhouse gases.
Because either we limit the warming to 1,5 degrees C over pre industrial levels, or we don’t. Either we reach a tipping point where we start a chain reaction with events way beyond human control, or we don’t. Either we go on as a civilization, or we don’t. There are no gray areas when it comes to survival.
And when I say that I want you to panic I mean that we need to treat the crisis as a crisis. When your house is on fire you don’t sit down and talk about how nice you can rebuild it once you put out the fire. If your house is on fire you run outside and make sure that everyone is out while you call the fire department. That requires some level of panic.
 
There is one other argument that I can’t do anything about. And that is the fact that I’m ”just a child and we shouldn’t be listening to children.” But that is easily fixed - just start to listen to the rock solid science instead. Because if everyone listened to the scientists and the facts that I constantly refer to - then no one would have to listen to me or any of the other hundreds of thousands of school children on strike for the climate across the world. Then we could all go back to school.
I am just a messenger, and yet I get all this hate. I am not saying anything new, I am just saying what scientists have repeatedly said for decades. And I agree with you, I’m too young to do this. We children shouldn’t have to do this. But since almost no one is doing anything, and our very future is at risk, we feel like we have to continue.
 
 
And if you have any other concern or doubt about me, then you can listen to my TED talk (

), in which I talk about how my interest for the climate and environment began.  
 
And thank you everyone for you kind support! It brings me hope.
/Greta
Ps I was briefly a youth advisor for the board of the non profit foundation “We don’t have time”. It turns out they used my name as part of another branch of their organisation that is a start up business. They have admitted clearly that they did so without the knowledge of me or my family. I no longer have any connection to “We don’t have time”. Nor has anyone in my family. They have deeply apologised and I have accepted their apolo

What an absolute load of crap.

On 09/02/2020 at 09:24, batrabill said:

My impression was that there were many Facebook refuseniks here. 

Yes, and i`m fiercely proud to be one.

There is NO climate crisis, the only crisis is people NEEDING to have a cause to believe in to give themselves a clear conscience (spelling?) rather than believing in themselves and their ability to think for themselves, rather than be taken in by children falsely believing they know what they are talking about rather than accepting the fact they are only puppets of the prophets of doom and gloom.

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1 hour ago, SPEEDTRIPLE said:

There is NO climate crisis, the only crisis is people NEEDING to have a cause to believe in to give themselves a clear conscience (spelling?) rather than believing in themselves and their ability to think for themselves, rather than be taken in by children falsely believing they know what they are talking about rather than accepting the fact they are only puppets of the prophets of doom and gloom.

 

Er, but the prophets of doom are pretty much all the people who have spent their life studying climate. 

Your case is that you know better? Or that all of them have joined in a conspiracy?

Is David Attenborough someone who is part of the conspiracy, or someone who has been taken in by children?

I'm properly confused what your argument is.

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Sorry to disappoint you ST but even I think there is an issue - whether or not it is a crisis only time will tell!!

I also have to inform you that I believe the Earth is round, the Americans did land on the Moon, and Potter Bridge is not sinking!!!

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2 minutes ago, marshman said:

I also have to inform you that I believe the Earth is round, the Americans did land on the Moon, and Potter Bridge is not sinking!!!

It was a shock to most members here when SPEEDTRIPLE and I started agreeing on things,

Now I'm agreeing with you, and I'm not sure the forum is strong enough to take it.

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ST in some ways I agree, there is no climate crisis, there is just the climate, and no matter what we do, the climate will do what it wants to do in its own unthinking uncaring way. this isnt to say there is no climate change, as there obviously is, but the thought that we can have a major impact and reverse the way the climate changes is ludicrous. yes we can do a lot of things that will make matters worse.

reducing pollution, reducing plastic use, and all the other things climate change activists aim for are all worthy aims, they will make the world we live in a better place to live, give us cleaner air and a better living environment, reducing our impact upon our surroundings is good, but there is no need to associate these good actions with climate change in the assumption that by doing these things we will stop the climate going its own merry way.

we are overdue for an ice age, these things happen in cycles. remember when maybe 10 years ago, it was all global warming and what a bad thing that was, well they have finally come to their senses and realised that warming in one area may not cause everywhere to get hotter.

Climate change is one of the things that may trigger the atlanic conveyor to stop - its been slowing for many years now, the altantic conveyor is a cold water current at the bottom of the atlantic, that drops somewhere in the region of canada, this cold current effectively drives all of the undersea currents around the world, eventually driving the gulf stream, this warms the UK, or we would have weather similar to Canada and Moscow, if the gulf stream stops, our climate will get colder not warmer.

 this has happened before and is usually a pre-cursor to ice ages and glaciation.

Similarly there is proof of the climate being warmer than it is currently, when the roots of giant redwoods are found emerging from the ice fields in the artic as the area warms, this is proof that at some point there were forests of these trees in latitudes now too cold to support them, the size of the trees would indicate a longish period when the climate was warm enough for them to survive at the higher latitudes.

So while climate change is a real and provable thing, and it is possible that some of our actions could affect it, there is no proof that such actions can do more than change it in a very minor way, Mother Nature is likely to just carry on and do what it wants despite any effort we make ourselves.

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9 minutes ago, grendel said:

ST in some ways I agree, there is no climate crisis, there is just the climate, and no matter what we do, the climate will do what it wants to do in its own unthinking uncaring way. this isnt to say there is no climate change, as there obviously is, but the thought that we can have a major impact and reverse the way the climate changes is ludicrous. yes we can do a lot of things that will make matters worse.

reducing pollution, reducing plastic use, and all the other things climate change activists aim for are all worthy aims, they will make the world we live in a better place to live, give us cleaner air and a better living environment, reducing our impact upon our surroundings is good, but there is no need to associate these good actions with climate change in the assumption that by doing these things we will stop the climate going its own merry way.

we are overdue for an ice age, these things happen in cycles. remember when maybe 10 years ago, it was all global warming and what a bad thing that was, well they have finally come to their senses and realised that warming in one area may not cause everywhere to get hotter.

Climate change is one of the things that may trigger the atlanic conveyor to stop - its been slowing for many years now, the altantic conveyor is a cold water current at the bottom of the atlantic, that drops somewhere in the region of canada, this cold current effectively drives all of the undersea currents around the world, eventually driving the gulf stream, this warms the UK, or we would have weather similar to Canada and Moscow, if the gulf stream stops, our climate will get colder not warmer.

 this has happened before and is usually a pre-cursor to ice ages and glaciation.

Similarly there is proof of the climate being warmer than it is currently, when the roots of giant redwoods are found emerging from the ice fields in the artic as the area warms, this is proof that at some point there were forests of these trees in latitudes now too cold to support them, the size of the trees would indicate a longish period when the climate was warm enough for them to survive at the higher latitudes.

So while climate change is a real and provable thing, and it is possible that some of our actions could affect it, there is no proof that such actions can do more than change it in a very minor way, Mother Nature is likely to just carry on and do what it wants despite any effort we make ourselves.

Well put Grendel that is as good a summary as you will get of the real world, the one thing I would add that many will find contentious is the added consequence of the overpopulation of the planet especially in areas that cannot sustain these levels, is it a coincidence that all the new epidemics over the last few decades have arisen in areas of overpopulation or just natures way of controlling things.

Fred 

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11 hours ago, SPEEDTRIPLE said:

There is NO climate crisis, the only crisis is people NEEDING to have a cause to believe in to give themselves a clear conscience (spelling?) rather than believing in themselves and their ability to think for themselves, rather than be taken in by children falsely believing they know what they are talking about rather than accepting the fact they are only puppets of the prophets of doom and gloom.

Lift your head out of the sand !

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11 hours ago, batrabill said:

 

Er, but the prophets of doom are pretty much all the people who have spent their life studying climate. 

Your case is that you know better? Or that all of them have joined in a conspiracy?

Is David Attenborough someone who is part of the conspiracy, or someone who has been taken in by children?

I'm properly confused what your argument is.

I'm afraid you will search in vain for any argument against man made global warming on the BBC, it's official BBC policy not to give air time to anyone that doesn't agree with their global warming narrative. Despite their charter insisting on impartiality they have made a conscious decision to effectively ban debate on the issue. No wonder people get cynical. The BBC position now seems to be " yes of course you can believe what you want, so long as you agree with me". 

PS

I don't claim to know if man made warming is real or not but I do know that where one side of an debate is deliberately quashed, something stinks.

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Having lifted my head out of the sand and waited until all the headless chickens disappeared over the horizon, I have found the following information. I'm sure other data are available.

In terms of carbon production, the International Energy Agency figures are:

1. China    9.8 billion metric tons      29% of the total emissions

2. USA       5.3 billion metric tons     16%

3. India      2.5 billion metric tons      7%

4. Russia   1.7 billion metric tons      5%

5. Japan    1.2 billion metric tons      4%

.......

16. UK       0.36 billion metric tons    1%

So if the UK became carbon free tomorow it would make diddlysquat difference to the overall total.

Now if Miss Thunberg can get to meet the Chinese leaders and persuade them to make the same commitment as the UK government has made, I might start listening to her. But at the moment she is just aiming at the low-hanging fruit.

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1 hour ago, SteveP said:

I'm afraid you will search in vain for any argument against man made global warming on the BBC, it's official BBC policy not to give air time to anyone that doesn't agree with their global warming narrative. Despite their charter insisting on impartiality they have made a conscious decision to effectively ban debate on the issue. No wonder people get cynical. The BBC position now seems to be " yes of course you can believe what you want, so long as you agree with me". 

PS

I don't claim to know if man made warming is real or not but I do know that where one side of an debate is deliberately quashed, something stinks.

 

But there is a bit of a problem, in that the figure which seems to be universal is 97% of climate scientists believe in man made global warming.

That is what is known as a scientific consensus. Or, alternatively, we call this a fact.

 

I know that a measurable proportion of the population believe that vaccination is a bad. But I don't expect the BBC to include their easily disproved views in intelligent debate.

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, batrabill said:

Is David Attenborough someone who is part of the conspiracy, or someone who has been taken in by children?

 

The honourable Knight of the Realm as a naturalist and integral part of the BBC while knowledgeable in his field has a vested interest  in supporting what has made him a multimillionaire, he above most should understand evolution and the natural order of things but sadly like many others he appears to have allowed himself to be side tracked into what has become a political agenda,  it doesn't make him anymore expert on prophesying the future than anyone else, I also wonder given his activities the size of his so called carbon footprint.

Fred 

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1 hour ago, batrabill said:

That is what is known as a scientific consensus. Or, alternatively, we call this a fact.

many years ago there was another scientific consensus which said the earth was flat , so in your eyes that was a fact?

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