Coronavirus And The Broads

[MauriceMynah]

JawsOrca, I get the feeling that your experiences are mainly involved in foreign travel, mainly because you use the term "Date of departure". What would constitute "date of departure" on a Broads holiday?

Further I wonder at your comment "Hoseason's may be having cashflow problems" I do not understand this. If they are receiving money, but not passing it on to the yards then the only cashflow I see is them wheeling all that money to the bank!

I am not criticising you in any way, I just don't understand it.

I could well understand the yards trying to hang on to both the cash and their reputations but that's the point where my understang stops!

[marshman]

There are lots of travel companies issuing Refund Credit Notes instead of returning cash as they are required to by law - be mindful that these RCN's , at the moment, are not ATOL protected.

[MauriceMynah]

Who is a travel agent acting on behalf of?

[JawsOrca]

8 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

JawsOrca, I get the feeling that your experiences are mainly involved in foreign travel, mainly because you use the term "Date of departure". What would constitute "date of departure" on a Broads holiday?

Further I wonder at your comment "Hoseason's may be having cashflow problems" I do not understand this. If they are receiving money, but not passing it on to the yards then the only cashflow I see is them wheeling all that money to the bank!

I am not criticising you in any way, I just don't understand it.

I could well understand the yards trying to hang on to both the cash and their reputations but that's the point where my understang stops!

I used to work for a company similar to ABTA called TTA, long time time ago though, these guys bond the independent agents,  I was there a few years, it's was good fun!

Sorry date of departure is the industry term, it's the first date of the holiday. Hence vaughans mention of thomas cook travellers arriving at hotels and not being paid (Although it's generally all electronically done), basically the hotel/accommodation supplier should be paid the day the traveller is due to arrive for accommodation.  I would suspect this is the case for a boat yard too (although it maybe a little different due to 30 day credit etc etc).

Regards to cash flow, many business normally have cash flow issues (robbing pete to pay paul), the TTA forces the agent to put money into a trust account so the money is guaranteed to be safe (and they can't release it easily - infact the accommodation provider is paid from there), ABTA or normal businesses aren't forced and can obviously do what they want with such funds so they may end up using "your booking money" to refund "Bob" and vice versa, making one heap of mess in terms of cash flows, but that's speculation, they maybe managing, they've been doing it long enough and yeah theoretically they should have money sitting there but I suspect they risk every booking being cancelled this year (considering most bookings for the year would have been placed by now ).. Typically in the travel industry accommodation only agents model can easily get into a mess (because it takes managing of cash flow, with the normal package holidays, money is passed down the line straight away and 10% commission is returned straight away, the booking is forgotten about and onto the next). 

Hope that helps insight a little more :)  I do agree with Vaughan though is hoseasons needed in this day in age, probably not although they do still allow people to walk into a travel agents all over the world and book with a little yard in the middle of nowhere.

[Vaughan]

Just now, MauriceMynah said:

Who is a travel agent acting on behalf of?

Short answer - the boatyard, since the boatyard are paying their commission. The price of the holiday to the customer was the same, whether booked direct or through the agent.

Having said that, the agent will only maintain its reputation by looking after its booking customers.

[Oddfellow]

10 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Not that I have any great trust in Trust Pilot but I did however follow Duncan's link. I knew Jimmy Hoseason personally and I dread to think what he'd think if he were still alive. He built that company by treating people fairly. Hoseasons will have to go some in order to regain both the trust and the reputation that had taken the company decades to acquire. Sad reading. 

Show me one holiday travel or accommodation provider that is able to weather this storm. Whatever comments are being levelled at Hoseasons now are surely from disgruntled people who, in all fairness, feel that they are some kind of special case at this remarkable period in the history of humanity.

The only thing that businesses like this are doing right now is desperately trying to stay afloat and you don't achieve that with ZERO incoming revenue and a giant stream of refunds. Sadly, that will mean that some people who aren't able to be flexible (and in some cases are unwilling, despite the situation) will be at odds with their holiday provider. 

Just yesterday, BA as in Airways, announced 12,000 job losses. 12,000 - that's nearly a third of the population of Norwich!, that's how serious this situation is for the travel, accommodation and tourism industry. Just what do people want these companies to do? 

And, how could the late, great Jimmy Hoseason have handled this any better without going to the wall? 

We are all in this together in some way or other. Quite apart from the health risks, the socioeconomic fall-out will be horrendous and we all need to play a part in the collective future rather than worry about the present. 

[Oddfellow]

1 hour ago, tim said:

This is possibly naive of me but I paid my balance to Pacific last Friday, I also had an email conversation with Fiona where we both hoped there maybe a loosening of restrictions before we are due to start the holiday 

I did this for two reasons, I trust Pacific to do the right thing (plus it is in my contract to do so) all my dealings with them has made me believe they are honorable people, I also did it because they probably need an ejection of cash at this time and I can afford to invest in them

Until I'm am told officially by the government that our holiday isn't happening I will cling to the belief that I shall have my broad fix, although I accept as broad pub lover that part isn't going to happen.

If we do get to go, I'm thinking of taking a second car to help transport the provisions I'll need to get me through the week!   

Tim, 

I think that was a very honourable thing to do. Generous given the situation too. Fiona and Richard are lovely people who deserve your trust and I thank you for making this post as it demonstrates faith and trust which is one thing we all need right now. 

 

Andy

[marshman]

Whilst it might be splitting hairs, the population of Norwich last time I checked was around 150K, so in fact its around 8%.

It depends on refunds what the t& c's say. Its quite clear as far as travel companies and the law, and just as people on here say we must stay at home, if the law , put in place to protect consumers like you and me are concerned, is not being adhered to, then they must pay up, if asked. Quite clear but if thats what it says, thats tough  - well thats what people tell me if  I want to visit my boat!

[Poppy]

Every reason to pay on a credit card. Claim back under section 75 (that's the phrase apparently), then let the card issuer sort it with the holiday company or whoever.

[Vaughan]

3 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Every reason to pay on a credit card. Claim back under section 75 (that's the phrase apparently), then let the card issuer sort it with the holiday company or whoever.

In fairness, this is what we have all been advised, for years now.

[Poppy]

3 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

In fairness, this is what we have all been advised, for years now.

But it's surprising how many still don't for various reasons of their own. Don't understand them myself.

[Vaughan]

21 minutes ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

And, how could the late, great Jimmy Hoseason have handled this any better without going to the wall? 

I think he would at least have made sure his phone got answered and this seems to be the basis of the complaints we have seen. Lack of customer communication, which gives the impression that the agency is just "circling the wagons".

[Meantime]

The reality of the situation is that everyone needs to be a little more flexible and consider the fact that when the terms and conditions were written no one was expecting a once in a hundred year event.

If you take Hoseasons for example, if everyone demands a refund and they start to issue refunds to the first 30, 40 or even 50% of customers asking and then they go bankrupt the remaining customers stand to potentially lose their holiday totally. Whereas if everyone is flexible and accepts a rebooking or credit note for later use then the majority just may get a holiday at some point. If you are a special case and cannot take a holiday a year later then accept the credit note on the basis that it can be sold on, or a full refund given if not used in say two years.

Something else to consider is that Hoseasons make their money on the commission paid for holidays taken. Clearly if people are not able to take that holiday and defer it, then Hoseasons commission is also deferred, yet they still need to pay staff and are potentially not taking new bookings to service their cash flow. Off course they could and may already have furloughed some staff, but then who is going to answer the phone or email for the many demands for refunds? So it would seem that some patience is required all round. Take into account that some members of staff may be self isolating and they are short of staff with an increasing workload of very irate customers, then perhaps people need to question how they might feel if having to deal with such customers all day long. Too be honest people can quote the 7 day refund or this and that law all they want, if the company haven't got the staff to respond within 7 days all you are going to do is wind yourself up and whilst leaving bad reviews on sites such as Trust Pilot may make people feel better, it isn't going to get them a refund or rebooked holiday. Ultimately such is the unique times we live in, people may feel they need to take legal action, but I feel that long before too many of those cases reach court, the government will introduce emergency laws releasing holiday companies from having to give refunds in favour of giving a credit note. People will have to learn to be patient and flexible.

[Oddfellow]

2 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I think he would at least have made sure his phone got answered and this seems to be the basis of the complaints we have seen. Lack of customer communication, which gives the impression that the agency is just "circling the wagons".

This is a problem for all such businesses. Most have had to furlough staff. Where are all these people coming from to answer the phones? Even if they are working from home, the business has had to implement expensive systems to manage this from secure networking access to their servers to phone redirection.  There's an awful lot of calls being made to agents like Hoseasons right now. There is surely an expectation on the part of the customer, but it has to be reasonable given the circumstances. 

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending Hoseasons. I am just commenting on the situation as I see it as I have to operate as booking agent and provider. Whatever troubles I am experiencing will be magnified many thousands of times with an organisation like Hoseasons. I do not expect for one second that they are out to 'do' anyone, but there are clearly major limits on what they can offer at a time when each and every one of us is just pleased to be waking up each morning. 

 

 

[Oddfellow]

2 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

The reality of the situation is that everyone needs to be a little more flexible and consider the fact that when the terms and conditions were written no one was expecting a once in a hundred year event.

If you take Hoseasons for example, if everyone demands a refund and they start to issue refunds to the first 30, 40 or even 50% of customers asking and then they go bankrupt the remaining customers stand to potentially lose their holiday totally. Whereas if everyone is flexible and accepts a rebooking or credit note for later use then the majority just may get a holiday at some point. If you are a special case and cannot take a holiday a year later then accept the credit note on the basis that it can be sold on, or a full refund given if not used in say two years.

Something else to consider is that Hoseasons make their money on the commission paid for holidays taken. Clearly if people are not able to take that holiday and defer it, then Hoseasons commission is also deferred, yet they still need to pay staff and are potentially not taking new bookings to service their cash flow. Off course they could and may already have furloughed some staff, but then who is going to answer the phone or email for the many demands for refunds? So it would seem that some patience is required all round. Take into account that some members of staff may be self isolating and they are short of staff with an increasing workload of very irate customers, then perhaps people need to question how they might feel if having to deal with such customers all day long. Too be honest people can quote the 7 day refund or this and that law all they want, if the company haven't got the staff to respond within 7 days all you are going to do is wind yourself up and whilst leaving bad reviews on sites such as Trust Pilot may make people feel better, it isn't going to get them a refund or rebooked holiday. Ultimately such is the unique times we live in, people may feel they need to take legal action, but I feel that long before too many of those cases reach court, the government will introduce emergency laws releasing holiday companies from having to give refunds in favour of giving a credit note. People will have to learn to be patient and flexible.

A brilliant synopsis. 

[ExSurveyor]

Cash flow will become very difficult but businessess have been given delay of a year on the previous quarters VAT payment and delays on  tax payments due until January 2021, this will ease cash flow a bit.

[JennyMorgan]

As has been said, it's not just today but also tomorrow so to speak. Hoseasons, although only a part of the chain, are up there at the sharp end. People are people and I suspect that the majority will judge Hoseasons by the way that they responded to the present situation from a customer's point of view.  Representational damage, as a certain Mr Green is finding out, is hard to repair.

What would Mr Hoseason have done? My guess is that he would have pulled the industry together in one room before now as well as answering the phones and e-mails. The customer is king, and he knew it. 

I can't help but feel that Hoseasons is not only damaging its own hard earned reputation but also that of the Broads. That said, the Broads survived WW2. It will survive this, but maybe Hoseasons won't.   

[Oddfellow]

3 minutes ago, psychicsurveyor said:

Cash flow will become very difficult but businessess have been given delay of a year on the previous quarters VAT payment and delays on  tax payments due until January 2021, this will ease cash flow a bit.

I am sure that's a great help to any business that has gone from perhaps £20k monthly revenue to zero overnight. 

[marshman]

Don't get me wrong, I do have a great deal of sympathy with the situation but you cannot change the rules after you have decided the rules do not suit you.

Does anyone for example, expect the UK government, to bail out Richard Branson given the lengths he has gone to distance himself from the UK and the tax system?

I think the Banks will become a bit cautious in acceding to S 75 payments unless they see evidence that the refunds are not available through the company direct

[grendel]

What we also have to consider is that the government has actually stepped in to support businesses and people.

just over 100 years ago now there was the spanish flu epidemic, many more people died, governments struggled and would not admit there was a problem, businesses had to stand on their own feet and people had to suffer, there was no-one then to bail them out, having just come through the first world war, a lot of the resilience had already been eroded from businesses and people.

Just consider how much worse this could have been if the government had not stepped in, the losses people and businesses are currently experiencing would be a great deal worse.

businesses would be closing down, people would be going bankrupt.(presuming they survive the pandemic)

the company I work for is an essential utility, yet 900 of 1200 staff are currently furloughed, this in reality brings response down to emergency only levels. are other companies going to be in much better a situation?

 

[Meantime]

5 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

What would Mr Hoseason have done? My guess is that he would have pulled the industry together in one room before now as well as answering the phones and e-mails. The customer is king, and he knew it.    

Before the days of Covid-19 and social distancing he might. Even parliament are struggling to meet as normal, but I do get the point your trying to make, just that in these very strange times it is already so quickly starting to feel alien the concept of a large group of people all in one room. Anybody else looking at news clips on TV showing large crowds from previous sporting or entertainment events and viewing them in a much different way now!

[ExSurveyor]

1 minute ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

I am sure that's a great help to any business that has gone from perhaps £20k monthly revenue to zero overnight. 

I speak from experience, except it is more than double that level.

Nearly forty years of effort came to a grinding halt.

The bigger question is, have I still got the energy and zeal to restart the business or is it time to pack up and retire early.

 

The payment delays are not the only answer but every little helps.

 

[JennyMorgan]

East Coast IPA speaks with much wisdom but in the meantime Hoseasons could have put out a public statement if only asking for time. As for folks money, have they paid it all via Hoseasons? If they have then surely Hoseasons has rather more than just their commission in their piggy bank? 

[Oddfellow]

1 minute ago, psychicsurveyor said:

I speak from experience, except it is more than double that level.

Nearly forty years of effort came to a grinding halt.

The bigger question is, have I still got the energy and zeal to restart the business or is it time to pack up and retire early.

 

The payment delays are not the only answer but every little helps.

 

Mark, sadly, you are spot on. 

 

[JennyMorgan]

5 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Before the days of Covid-19 and social distancing he might. Even parliament are struggling to meet as normal, but I do get the point your trying to make, just that in these very strange times it is already so quickly starting to feel alien the concept of a large group of people all in one room. Anybody else looking at news clips on TV showing large crowds from previous sporting or entertainment events and viewing them in a much different way now!

Okay, a mass conference call then!