Damage Waiver Was Paid!

[Vaughan]

I didn't reply yesterday as we were out visiting a notaire, to sign a contract on a house. But that's another story!

My answer is in two parts :

Firstly, those AF42's that NBYCo built for the Beaver Fleet must be the same ones that I knew in 1983 and which later became the Cavaliers, one of which is now owned by Shiralee.  There were only 5 in the fleet, so it must be them.  I know they were built to Richardsons' spec as their electrician, Walter Nicholls, had the big boats fitted with 2 alternators on 2 separate circuits, for starter and domestic.  Quite modern, for those days!

Richardsons had been bought by Rank and in 1976 they built 100 new boats, all in one winter.  They built a lot themselves but also contracted out to a lot of other yards, including Sutton Staithe, Woods, Horizon Craft and Easticks.  So those AF42.s would have been more like 1976 or 77, and not 1981 as I thought.  No wonder they were such good boats if your father built them!

As to your query about your boat in Vitry le Francois, I can't be of much help there, as what we would call boatbuilders are about as rare as rocking horse droppings, unless you go to the coast around Marseille, or in Brittany around Nantes or St Nazaire - which do not connect to the French canal system.  The French canals are commercial, and so the yards build steel barges.  In addition, the canal you are on, although it is a wonderful place in the foothills of the Jura, is not a canal where hiring is allowed, so no hire boat bases.

When we fitted out the Condors, as described on this thread, I employed a Norfolk boatbuilder, Arthur Garrett, to come and do the work, so that we could treat the St Gilles base much more like a normal boatyard.  Most French hire boat bases have little more than an office and a car park and none of them build their own boats.

One thing I could suggest is the Le Boat base at Gray, just north east of Dijon, which used to be Connoisseur's head office base in France.  Porter and Haylett were a very "in house" company who trained their own staff in Norfolk and then sent them to work in France, so if any of the old Wroxham crowd are still working there, they may be able to help. All the same, like us, if a boat needed serious work it got sent back to Norfolk.

Another thought would be to ring up a broker called H2O, who are based in St Jean de Losne, on the Saone. They are the only real yacht broker on the French canals and they may know of a business that could do the work.

I am sorry I can't suggest anything more than that!

 

[DAVIDH]

What an encyclopedia of boat hire knowledge you are Vaughan. We are fortunate indeed to have you on this forum. 

[NBYCo2124]

Dear Vaughan,

Thank you so much for your really comprehensive reply, and I echo David's post, we are so fortunate.

The AF 42's for the Beaver Fleet:  I may have a couple of photos of them being built, as they have blue topsides, and the ones we built for our hire fleet were either mustard or a really interesting brownish colour. I can't remember the yard building AF 42's for anyone else. Two of the Consuls are being built next to them, so it must have been around 1977? The other clue is the unusual rubbing bands fitted. They also have the blue gel coat under the water and as its boot top.

Regarding the boatyard: Thank you again for this information. Wow, I wasn't expecting that. I had no idea the boats were built elsewhere. I knew about the Porter and Haylett operation, as in about 1981 I went looking for work in France, without any success, and we stayed a night with a nice chap who was working or running one of their Connoisseur businesses. He used to crew on Madie and was was really hospitable. I will contact the businesses you suggest.

My original intention was to bring President back to The Broads to be restored, but it was a struggle to get a quote to transport her back, and then the cost was, I thought, too much and this was without craning her out onto the truck. The nearest waterside Crane is 2 days sailing away! Hence trying to get some of the work completed in France.

Thank you again, I am very grateful for your guidance.

Regards

Robert

 

554A2068-01FB-4711-812A-8B1FBED3B42A.heic

[NeilB]

Hi Robert

We had one of the interesting brown AF42's when I worked at Kris Cruisers, it had NBYCo on the backs of draws etc.  I think it was a Diplomat but cannot recall the number as it was probably over 25 years ago I was last on board !

It's an even more interesting brown now and the last I heard it was ashore in Loddon looking a little sad, it's now 856E.  It had a BMC 2.5 and was a dream to handle.

[NBYCo2124]

Hi Neil,

Thank you, she is looking rather sad.

I have attached a photo of another AF42 in the colour I mentioned that I took in 2017 whilst cruising down the Thames. This was at East Molesey.

Regards

Robert

 

[LizG]

Hello Robert

I assume this is how you acquired President?

https://www.nottinghamtothemedwithcancer.com/the-president

In the 70s I worked for Beardshaws and cleaned the Compass Craft Boats on Saturdays so I got to know the boats quite well under their new names!!!!

Liz

[Vaughan]

55 minutes ago, NBYCo2124 said:

I knew about the Porter and Haylett operation, as in about 1981 I went looking for work in France, without any success,

You and me both, as it happens!

In 1985 I was recently divorced, back from France after Rank had sold up and so I applied to Bill Moore for a job as a manager out in France, to try and get my life back on an even keel.  I was interviewed by the yard manager who I shall not name out of courtesy.  He made it clear he was only giving me an interview because Bill Moore had told him to : he made it clear that Connoisseur only recruited from within and he then made it even clearer, by inference, that as I was Commander Ashby's son from Hearts Cruisers, I was therefore born with a silver spoon in my mouth and was no use for anything practical on a boatyard.

Well, that was his choice, wasn't it?

 

[Griff500]

1 hour ago, NBYCo2124 said:

I wasn't expecting that. I had no idea the boats were built elsewhere. I knew about the Porter and Haylett operation, as in about 1981 I went looking for work in France, without any success, and we stayed a night with a nice chap who was working or running one of their Connoisseur businesses. He used to crew on Madie and was was really hospitable.

Hi Robert, I dont post too often but having read this I guess this could only have been me as I set up both the Auxerre and Gray bases! I also crewed on Maidie in the late 70's. I believe that the Gray operation of Le Boat was sadly closed around 2 or 3 years ago..

[Griff500]

4 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I was interviewed by the yard manager who I shall not name out of courtesy.

No name needed 😉

[Vaughan]

12 hours ago, Griff500 said:

Hi Robert, I dont post too often but having read this I guess this could only have been me as I set up both the Auxerre and Gray bases! I also crewed on Maidie in the late 70's. I believe that the Gray operation of Le Boat was sadly closed around 2 or 3 years ago..

Hello Griff,

If you crewed on Maidie in the 70s, with Reg Parsons, then I should think we have probably met!

I am very sorry to hear that the base at Gray has closed and I know that the old Connoisseur bases at Trebes and Narbonne have also closed.

We went by their big base in Homps on Thursday and it all looked a bit suspicious to me.  All the Le Boat fleet moored away from the service quay in order of classes and in nice neat rows, but no work going on and no staff on the base.  The only boats out on the hard were from another company that shares the basin, and whose boats had all the places outside the workshops.

I don't have any contacts in Le Boat's management these days (don't want to really) but I know that there has been an utterly drastic slump in boat hiring this year in France.  The French are only about 10 to 15% of their customer base and all the rest, especially the British, come from other countries.  But no-one is flying long haul any more and all the hotel barges had exclusively American customers.

I very much hope I am wrong, but I don't like the look of it, I am afraid.

[NBYCo2124]

 

19 hours ago, LizG said:

Hello Robert

I assume this is how you acquired President?

https://www.nottinghamtothemedwithcancer.com/the-president

In the 70s I worked for Beardshaws and cleaned the Compass Craft Boats on Saturdays so I got to know the boats quite well under their new names!!!!

Liz

Dear Liz, Thank you for the link to Richard's Cancer donation page. Its the first time I have seen this. In fact I saw President for sale on Apolloduck in the summer 2018, and immediately rang the contact number as I knew it was President, despite her name change. 

However, the vendor had just sold President to Richard. I missed her by a matter of hours.  The vendor passed my contact details to Richard and we had many conversations about President, and his voyage. I was very fortunate that I was offered President to buy from Richard's Estate. 

I am sorry, after my parents sold NBYC, my involvement with the yard became much less, despite them both staying on for a while after the purchase. Therefore my knowledge and interest waned, and I moved from Norfolk in the Summer of 1983. My interest in the Broads remains with me, and I am thrilled to own President now.

Regards

Robert

[NBYCo2124]

19 hours ago, Griff500 said:

Hi Robert, I dont post too often but having read this I guess this could only have been me as I set up both the Auxerre and Gray bases! I also crewed on Maidie in the late 70's. I believe that the Gray operation of Le Boat was sadly closed around 2 or 3 years ago..

Wow, so much making sense now. I was travelling with Pat Larner's son Chris? You were a saviour offering us a bed and supper. I think by this point we were down to the last of our cash and heading back to Norfolk!

Reg Parsons had that twin engined Freeman 30, and there was another boat that was used to move Madie between venues before the Freeman?

Regards

Robert

[Griff500]

6 hours ago, NBYCo2124 said:

Wow, so much making sense now. I was travelling with Pat Larner's son Chris? You were a saviour offering us a bed and supper. I think by this point we were down to the last of our cash and heading back to Norfolk!

Reg Parsons had that twin engined Freeman 30, and there was another boat that was used to move Madie between venues before the Freeman?

Regards

Robert

I honestly cant remember Chris being there but I did go to school with his brother Richard. Yes there was the well travelled Freeman 30 that we crossed from Southwold to Holland and prior to that we used a cruiser that belonged to the landlord of the Eagle in Neatishead.

I vaguely recollect coming through Yarmouth yacht station with Maidie and, I believe,  Evening Flight in line astern tow. Punching the tide in one of Vaughans hireboats we came to a complete standstill and created carnage 🤣

[Griff500]

13 hours ago, Vaughan said:

Hello Griff,

If you crewed on Maidie in the 70s, with Reg Parsons, then I should think we have probably met!

I am very sorry to hear that the base at Gray has closed and I know that the old Connoisseur bases at Trebes and Narbonne have also closed.

We went by their big base in Homps on Thursday and it all looked a bit suspicious to me.  All the Le Boat fleet moored away from the service quay in order of classes and in nice neat rows, but no work going on and no staff on the base.  The only boats out on the hard were from another company that shares the basin, and whose boats had all the places outside the workshops.

I don't have any contacts in Le Boat's management these days (don't want to really) but I know that there has been an utterly drastic slump in boat hiring this year in France.  The French are only about 10 to 15% of their customer base and all the rest, especially the British, come from other countries.  But no-one is flying long haul any more and all the hotel barges had exclusively American customers.

I very much hope I am wrong, but I don't like the look of it, I am afraid.

Hi Vaughan, yes indeed we did. Distant fun times in a different world.

Sad to hear Narbonne has been closed too. I worked with Don McPhail in those days. Seeing some of the reviews for Le Boat is equally very saddening considering the hard work that was put in during the early days with P&H  on a pittance of a budget...

[Vaughan]

9 hours ago, Griff500 said:

Seeing some of the reviews for Le Boat is equally very saddening considering the hard work that was put in during the early days with P&H  on a pittance of a budget...

I am afraid that the two great companies that we used to work for and put so much effort and experience into building, are no more.  The two famous brand names have been thrown away in favour of some silly nick-name and the bases are now owned by a huge corporate tour operator whose management believes that you can run a hire fleet boatyard by clicking a mouse, on a computer somewhere in America.

That's just my view, of course . . . .   

[floydraser]

7 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I am afraid that the two great companies that we used to work for and put so much effort and experience into building, are no more.  The two famous brand names have been thrown away in favour of some silly nick-name and the bases are now owned by a huge corporate tour operator whose management believes that you can run a hire fleet boatyard by clicking a mouse, on a computer somewhere in America.

I know little of France and even less of boating in France but American management.....

The US brought us all great improvements in customer service, but to the point of obsession. I have experience of this from when Wal-Mart took over Asda. True they probably run it all from the states but they will employ young, bubbly people locally to carry out the donkey work, teaching them sayings like, "respect for the individual" and "always greet anyone who comes within 6 feet of you". In French of course. These people's total knowledge of boating may well have gained by company training programs which involve showing them pictures of boats. 

Just a wild guess of course. Avay voo une nice day. 

 

[andyg]

On 28/11/2020 at 16:28, NeilB said:

Hi Robert

We had one of the interesting brown AF42's when I worked at Kris Cruisers, it had NBYCo on the backs of draws etc.  I think it was a Diplomat but cannot recall the number as it was probably over 25 years ago I was last on board !

It's an even more interesting brown now and the last I heard it was ashore in Loddon looking a little sad, it's now 856E.  It had a BMC 2.5 and was a dream to handle.

Are they still there, what a waste shame to see it in such a state. Does Bill own them? 

[BuffaloBill]

5 hours ago, andyg said:

Are they still there, what a waste shame to see it in such a state. Does Bill own them? 

The last time I spoke to Bill, he did still own them but did say someone was interested in buying them.

Never happened though.

[oldgregg]

I seem to remember a thread a long time ago now on another place about how the boats were being stripped out and the plan was to re-fit them to be more of a 'luxury' boat which would be let to selected customers.

For that reason I think at least one of them may be at least partially stripped out inside, so would probably only really appeal to an individual or yard willing to do a major refit (and who is happy to strip and paint or vinyl wrap the hideous hull colour).

As an aside, I did wander past the yard last year and hadn't realised quite how deep the keel is on those boats. No wonder they handle so well. Presumably there are issues with grounding on certain parts of the system, hence newer stuff is a lot shallower?

[webntweb]

48 minutes ago, oldgregg said:

As an aside, I did wander past the yard last year and hadn't realised quite how deep the keel is on those boats. No wonder they handle so well. Presumably there are issues with grounding on certain parts of the system, hence newer stuff is a lot shallower?

Did just that on one of those - Sunset 6 (ex-King of Light).

In front of the Pleasure Boat, Hickling, August bank holiday weekend, lovely day, pub garden was crowded and we cruised slowly towards the only mooring and suddenly stopped in mid stream - embarrassing. Fortunately some gentle reverse brought us back off.

[Vaughan]

4 hours ago, oldgregg said:

and hadn't realised quite how deep the keel is on those boats. No wonder they handle so well.

Actually I don't think the keel is much deeper than most traditional wooden hire boats - just a bit longer!  The AF42 may be in GRP but it is a genuine Broads cruiser which was designed to be hauled out of the water on a slipway, hence all the old ones have a "snore hole" in the stem for attaching the winch wire, and a long, straight keel for sliding up the "ways".  The hard chine and "deep V" construction means it can happily sit on its keel, without too much strain on the hull.

Incidentally, as this thread is about a sinking after a grounding, I am pretty sure an Aquafibre moulded boat would have ridden up over those tree stumps, without them puncturing the hull.

[MauriceMynah]

I find myself a little bit happier each time you mention Aquafibre 42s. I even found a picture of it's "snore hole"> That means at least two when I'm aboard.

[Vaughan]

Just as a matter of interest, there are very many words that we use in Norfolk Broads boatbuilding, that came across here from the Dutch.

Snoer, in Dutch, means a cable or bridle and we use it to describe the hole for a pin (usually a bit of old prop shaft) that was passed through the "snore hole" for attaching a chain bridle, shackled onto the winch wire.

Other words from the Dutch that have passed into our common language are keel, and floor, which refers to the structural framework inside the boat, onto which the floorboards are placed.

The leeward side refers to the leeboard, which was lowered on Dutch sailing barges - or "botters" - when they were sailing in deep water.  The Starboard side is the side where the steering board was rigged, before rudders were invented.  This is also the origin of the Dutch Leeward Islands, in the Caribbean.

Our word yacht comes from the Dutch yaght and the original British royal yachts, in Tudor times, were built by the Dutch.

Our boatbuilding has learned a lot from them!

[grendel]

Vaughan, it was always my thought that starboard came as you say from the side the steering board or oar was mounted but that it was of scandanavian (viking) origin, maybe thats where it migrated from into the dutch - actually we may both be wrong as wikipedia attributes it to old english -

Quote

The term starboard derives from the Old English steorbord, meaning the side on which the ship is steered. ... Hence the left side was called port. The Oxford English Dictionary cites port in this usage since 1543. Formerly, larboard was often used instead of port.

and from another site -

Quote

As to the name itself, “starboard”, this comes from the Anglo-Saxon name for this side steering oar, “steorbord”, which literally means “the side on which a vessel is steered”.  The fact that the rudder was oriented this way gave a very convenient and completely unconfusing word for sailors, without any mental gymnastics, to know which side of the ship was being referenced; it’s just the side the steering oar is on.

The original name for the left side of the ship was not “port”, but rather the Old English “bæcbord”.  This was probably referencing the fact that on larger boats the helmsman would often have to hold the steering oar with both hands, so his back would be to the left side of the ship.

After “bæcbord” came “laddebord”- “laden” meaning “to load” and “board” meaning “ship’s side”, referencing the side of the ship where loading and unloading was done.  This gave rise to “larboard” in the 16th century, rhyming with “starboard”, and again just meaning the side of the ship that faced the dock or shore (to minimize chance of damaging the steering oar and make it easier to load and unload without the steering oar in the way).

“Port” also popped up in the 16th century with the origin similar to why the left side of the ship was called “larboard”, when you docked or moored a ship with the rudder affixed to the right side, it was always done with the left side of the boat facing the harbor or dock.

Presumably the fact that “port” and “larboard” first popped up around the 16th century is no coincidence.  Once “laddebord” was slurred down to “larboard”, to rhyme with “starboard”, a problem was introduced with the words sounding so similar. There was now a good chance of people mishearing which direction was given, particularly in stormy settings or in a battle or the like.  As such, around the early to mid-19th century, “port” popularly replaced “larboard” for this reason. At first many just made the switch on their own, but by 1844 the change from “larboard” to “port” was made official in the British navy and two years later in the U.S. Navy and has pretty much become ubiquitous since.

so Starboard dates at least back to anglo saxon times.

[grendel]

keel is attributed to both old english and norse -

Quote

The word "keel" comes from Old English cēol, Old Norse kjóll, = "ship" or "keel". ... Carina is the Latin word for "keel" and is the origin of the term careen (to clean a keel and the hull in general, often by rolling the ship on its side).

once again attributed to wikipedia

in fact a lot of norse words managed to find their way into the english language, including many days in our week.