2020 Toll.

[floydraser]

1 hour ago, Poppy said:

They have the option to furlough their staff ,as is the option for most employers.

Quite, but do you know how they select which staff to furlough?

[JennyMorgan]

I posted James's topic, lifted from FB, because links to other forums are not encouraged on NBN. One way or another the topic is relevant to all of us who own and use a boat on the Broads.

That aside what I have not done is to post FB responses, some of which answer points made here.

We have been told by the BA that we cannot use our boats whilst also being told that we must pay our toll. This is a discriminatory demand. Had a request been made, e.g. despite not being able to use your boat would you mind paying your toll so that we might continue with our good work, then just maybe more of us would have accepted the BA's position. We ALL benefit by the work that the Authority does, and that INCLUDES the hire yards and their customers. The demand was badly made, not least because the Act was misquoted and I suspect intentionally so. Where the Authority is concerned we have long since ceased 'being in this together' and I don't blame the boat-owners for that.

[Poppy]

55 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Quite, but do you know how they select which staff to furlough?

It's not complicated.

https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/analysis/coronavirus-job-retention-scheme-employers

 

[Vaughan]

33 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

We have been told by the BA that we cannot use our boats whilst also being told that we must pay our toll.

Have we?

We have been told that we should not travel un-necessarily, which I take to mean from our home to our boat.  Note that I say "should" not "must" in the legal definition.

I am not aware of any new law which says that a boat cannot navigate the Norfolk Broads.

I don't think  it is the BA, that has said we should stay at home.  And I don't think it is the DVLA, that has said we should not travel in our cars.  But they are not refunding anyone's car tax.

[BuffaloBill]

I read that the rangers were stopping people out in their boats and telling them to go back to their moorings.

The Marina's have told us not to come to them as well. So, you can't use your boat for which you have payed your tolls, Insurance and mooring fees by both the Government, your marina and the BA want you to pay for a full year!

As for the car tax, you can use your car to go shopping, collect medicines or see the doctor/hospital so car use is still allowed.

If you were to drive to your boat and got stopped by the police, you may well be fined. (Just saying)

[JennyMorgan]

24 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Have we?

In the last Broads Briefing. I'm not arguing about the message as such but the middle column makes it quite clear.

 

[Meantime]

I still use my car to go to the supermarket. If the government said I couldn't drive then I would SORN the car, park it on the drive and apply for a refund of the car tax which you are allowed to do.

Taken from The Broads Authority website

"Now is not the time to visit the Broads. Please do not travel here for leisure or exercise.

The only people that should be on the Broads waterways are those that live aboard their boats and essential services supporting the COVID-19 response such as the Coastguard, BroadsBeat Officers, Broads Authority Rangers and operations staff conducting essential maintenance."

"Private boats that are kept or used in the Broads navigation area or adjacent waters do still need to be tolled. We fully appreciate the frustrations that private owners have in not being able to use their vessels during this time, coupled with financial concerns that many are facing."

The full statement can be viewed here noting off course the incorrect statement they make, in contradiction to the highlighted by them in bold advice they give to hire yards. The Broads act and adjacent waters sections makes NO distinction between the two.

[grendel]

no matter what the BA advice is, the government advice is clear, and that states no unnecessary travelling eg to caravans or holiday homes, so while it may not state boats the intent is crystal clear. do you think caravan owners are getting free storage, or holiday home owners a break from paying fees - no.

[JennyMorgan]

26 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

I read that the rangers were stopping people out in their boats and telling them to go back to their moorings.

I haven't read it but I had been told. If it is the case then I can only suggest that Authority Rangers have been over zealous. 

[Meantime]

4 minutes ago, grendel said:

no matter what the BA advice is, the government advice is clear, and that states no unnecessary travelling eg to caravans or holiday homes, so while it may not state boats the intent is crystal clear. do you think caravan owners are getting free storage, or holiday home owners a break from paying fees - no.

No but at the same time we are not getting a refund on mooring fees either, which is fine because the boats are being stored after all.

[JennyMorgan]

4 minutes ago, grendel said:

or holiday home owners a break from paying fees - no.

I seem to remember a recent report telling us that one of the BIG holiday home companies is giving its owners a break, that their year will run from when their season recommences after the close-down. Seems very reasonable to me. My season ticket to the excellent Africa Alive is subject to the same policy.

[ExSurveyor]

We can't travel to our boats, we can't enter our marinas and we can't use the rivers.

This is because of government instruction to contain the virus.

We are not getting a refund on road fund or a reduction in mooring fees but some people are expecting a reduction in the tolls.

Quite incredible.

[CambridgeCabby]

As I stated before on another thread , we have paid our tolls , and paid them gladly .

Katie (my wife) my daughter and my son in law are all involved in the care of Covid-19 patients in ICU many of whom sadly will not survive it .

They put themselves at personal risk daily trying to help their patients and I find it petty all the bickering over what is on the face of it a relatively small amount of money 

There are far far more important things to concern us all now than a few pounds.

 

Pic shows my daughter in her current nurses uniform which is also what Katie and my son in law have to wear

[Vaughan]

6 minutes ago, psychicsurveyor said:

Quite incredible.

On that note, I am off to bed.

No doubt tomorrow there will still be those who wish to continue this rather ridiculous "thrust and parry" which will, sure enough, change nothing.

I have said it before :

You can't see the wood for the trees.

 

[floydraser]

1 hour ago, Poppy said:

It's not complicated.

https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/analysis/coronavirus-job-retention-scheme-employers

 

And everybody is called Jeremy and Jemima and the garden is full of lovely roses.

Furlough causes exactly the same resentment being voiced within this thread: "It's not fair, why me not him/her?" It is still hardship to some poor human being. Two members of my close family are Managers of people and have had to decide who to furlough etc and then tell the poor souls that they are going to be 20% down for an unknown period. Not easy for anyone.

It's one thing to reckon the hardship against "We're all in this together" but not against poor cashflow caused by some rich bloke refusing to pay his dues, which JP will surely be quick to exploit. 

 

[JennyMorgan]

My last word on this one! 

I'm not so much worried about the money but I am concerned that the wording of the Act has been 'adjusted', as it has been, to support yet another questionable policy. It does bring into question the ethos & credibility of those charged with managing the Authority. We have had far too many examples of similar 'adjustment', witness the illustrious BNP saga. If you are content with that then so be it, personally I am not.

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, JennyMorgan said:

I haven't read it but I had been told. If it is the case then I can only suggest that Authority Rangers have been over zealous. 

Final PS to the  last word, honestly!

In fairness to the Rangers, the BA's good guys, I think it worth recording that the Rangers do not have the authority, and probably not the inclination either, to stop anyone using the river. This is a police issue, not one for the BA. 

[MauriceMynah]

Peter, far from arguing with your point about … shall we say, re-wording the act, I tend to agree, where I think you may be mistaken are the reasons for it.

Putting your distrust of the Dr to one side for the moment (difficult I know, but please try. :--)  ) I think it possible that it may be the wording of the act that is the problem. Is it possible that the original wording, and the original intention of the act are slightly different?

This will not be the first time an act, or even a law, has been written only to find that it can be used to achieve undesirable or at least unforeseeable results.

The circumstances regarding a hire craft are very different from those regarding a private boat. The act seems not to have taken full account of this. Who, if not the Dr, should try to remedy this?

Will he take advantage of this?  Well, yes he might well do so. Does that mean he shouldn't try to help the broads businesses by doing this? Personally, I think not. 

[Puddleduck2]

Possibly slightly off subject, but "live aboards" can be on their boats, but there is no need for them to be moving around the waterways, just as the rest of us should not use our cars except for specified journeys.

I saw a hire boat passing St Benets yesterday but could not see from which fleet, although it did have a TV dome on the bow!

[Meantime]

 Personally I find your use of the word "sick" particularly offensive. You may not agree with someone's actions, but probably best to moderate your language!

The law is plain, the act is plain and The BA even issued guidance confirming that back in 2010. Remember this, very few people wanted the adjacent waters section when the act was going through parliament. It is the exemptions to that part that apply EQUALLY to both hire and private toll payers. The hire toll payers in many cases have been making profits of over £500,000 in the last few years. How about you aim some of your venom at getting them to pay when they equally don't need to at this time!

[marshman]

If you could really make that kind of profit from boatyards that easily, I cannot see why any yards should close down at all, and indeed I would expect to see a queue of people taking over those yards so they could live in luxury!!

My guess, for what its worth, is that figure is far from the truth - but I could be wrong!

[BroadsAuthority]

Hello,

To clarify for the benefit of this thread:

• Our Rangers (in line with our social media campaign) have been advising people to follow the UK Government instructions to stay and home and don't make non-essential journeys to help save lives. It is a shame this is regarded as over-zealous. 
• We're aware of the difficulties that the live aboard community are facing right now, and the unique situation they are in. It is reasonable for them to move their vessel to obtain supplies or get a pump out, but not to go cruising around for leisure. Rangers are undertaking welfare checks on those who need them and are conscious of the need for leniency with regards to the current situation.
• However if your boat isn't your primary residence (e.g. you also have a house), the Government have been clear that it isn't acceptable to be on your boat.
• If people continue to take to the water and flout the instructions, or businesses that shouldn't be operating continue to open, this is a matter for the police and/or Norfolk County Council's trading standards team to directly enforce (as it isn't within our powers).
• There was a singular hire boat out that had been reported to us multiple times,  however the vessel is now vacant and is awaiting collection by the yard. If any more hire boats are spotted these are new incidents and should be reported to the relevant Authority.
• We completely understand the frustration of everyone who is unable to use their vessels at the present moment, and I can wholeheartedly say that the Authority is extremely grateful to both those who have paid their tolls on time, and those who have followed the instructions to stay off the water. Please continue to stay safe.

Best,

Tom

[Meantime]

I think it unfair for me to link to or highlight a particular company so instead here is the link to companies house where you can do your own search of the big three or four yards. Since these are certified accounts filed at companies house and are a legal requirement to be filed and be accurate I think you can safely say the profits speak for themselves.

By the way no one said making over £500,000 profit was easy and if any of those directors do happen to live in big houses in Horning and the surrounding areas then good luck to them they have earnt it. I'm not saying it's wrong to make a profit or easy, just that they can shoulder their share of this as well as any other toll payer. 

[floydraser]

37 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

 Personally I find your use of the word "sick" particularly offensive. You may not agree with someone's actions, but probably best to moderate your language!

 How about you aim some of your venom at getting them to pay when they equally don't need to at this time!

No offence intended. No venom here either. Oh look, my post has been removed. now the balance of the thread more towards BA bashing, just for a change then.

[Islander]

31 minutes ago, BroadsAuthority said:

•  
• We're aware of the difficulties that the live aboard community are facing right now, and the unique situation they are in. It is reasonable for them to move their vessel to obtain supplies or get a pump out, but not to go cruising around for leisure. Rangers are undertaking welfare checks on those who need them and are conscious of the need for leniency with regards to the current situation.

Being one of the many that do actually live aboard we are fortunate to have a mooring with all the facilities, so have no need to move. Many of the other boats, especially in the norwich area are struggling for services as many of the yards are shut including Norwich YS.

 Our other boat, Lady Linda, would normally be at our St Olaves mooring but was not ready to move before the inevitable lockdown so is still currently moored alongside our 'houseboat'. If we had moved her in March we would not now be able to even visit her but being off the river and moored over my land I wouldn't have had to pay her toll. 

Now,as yet, I still haven't paid this years toll but will do in the next few days for all our boats currently in the water. This year equates to about £850. I don't begrudge the BA the money only I wish they would class our static boat a house boat. Probably because they don't want an increase in houseboats on the broads. I will point out that I would still have paid the toll for Lady Linda even if she was at St Olaves.

Colin and Ruth 

Currently isolating the best we can.