Boris Says We Can Go Boating!! - (Not sure he did we must wait clarification (edited by Maxwellian)

[JennyMorgan]

I don't know where Marshman moors his boat but I doubt that it is a large, plush Tingdene style affair. It would seem that both common sense and reasonableness should be joint drivers on this one. 

[Poppy]

14 minutes ago, Bytheriver said:

Some possibly good news on BA FB page from last evening - at least they are asking the question today  https://www.facebook.com/BroadsAuthority

Oh bloody hell ! Marinas closed - clearly they are hoping for a similar answer  !   The roads aren't closed. Why should the statutory navigations be ?

[Meantime]

9 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

I don't know where Marshman moors his boat but I doubt that it is a large, plush Tingdene style affair. It would seem that both common sense and reasonableness should be joint drivers on this one. 

The one thing about common sense, sadly is that its not common.

If you look at the changes the government are making this Wednesday, very little is changing, apart from some common sense being applied. Was anyone stopped for exercising so their details could be noted in case they did so twice in one day? It was impossible to Police so they have relaxed it to as many times in one day. Likewise if you sunbathe observing social distancing common sense says you are doing no harm. Again because of the sheer numbers who were starting to rebel it made sense to relax the guidance. Being outside whether for exercise or just to sit or watch nature is good for your mental well being.

To me it makes common sense if you see someone outside working on their boat, or car, alone to not stop and chat but to let them get on with, and even more common sense not to go and snitch to the Police about it.

Now more than ever everyone in this country needs to reach deep and make use of common sense. Deep down we all know what we should be doing whether we like it or not. If the public embraces the new measures with some common sense then hopefully they will stay. If people abuse it and the rate of infection grows then the government will not only withdraw the easing, but implement total lock down and no outside exercise in public places at all.

[floydraser]

19 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

I don't know where Marshman moors his boat but I doubt that it is a large, plush Tingdene style affair. It would seem that both common sense and reasonableness should be joint drivers on this one. 

Peter, what are trying to tell us about Marshman?? 

I think I would be tempted to ask the marina and if they said yes, nip over, check the boat over and nip out again. I wouldn't attract attention by sitting there with a beer and I wouldn't broadcast anything about it on here or anywhere else.

[ExSurveyor]

We should all remember the Governments aim isn't to restrict our freedom,

it is to save lives.

 

Last night I watched a programme following three businessess since the start of lockdown.

The engineering company struggling to survive, eventually supported by a government backed loan.

A plant businesses with no one to sell to who gave the plants away to local people with a note explaining they were a free gift to them, they recieved substantial donations that will keep them going.

Finally the private mortuary company in Essex. This covered three boroughs and serviced the hospital and local authority removals.

Normally they have less than 100 bodies in their care. On one day they collected over 90. They have needed to install 5 40' refridgerated containers and convert the vehicle store to deal with the crisis. They now hold 500 bodies awaiting funerals at any one time.

This is the reality of what the government is dealing with.

It was a very sobering programme and puts into perspective our urge to go to our boats.

 

[Maxwellian]

2 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

No firm guidance, yet. It does seem to me that day-boating will be acceptable, at least we can hope so. Will folk in general use their common sense in the event that that is the case?

Those who have common sense would most likely use it Peter. The problem is that many appear not to have any.

[Paladin]

2 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

No firm guidance, yet. It does seem to me that day-boating will be acceptable, at least we can hope so. Will folk in general use their common sense in the event that that is the case?

Define day-boat.

If I take out a small open boat for the day, I will have no on-board hand-washing facilities (OK, so I can take some alcohol gel, which is less effective than soap and hot water), no toilet facilities (bucket-and-chuck-it or bin liner...nice) and public facilites are all closed.

If I take my cabin cruiser out for the day, I have on-board soap and hot water and full toilet facilities available.

My common sense tells me a cabin cruiser, used for a day, is preferable.

 

[Oddfellow]

10 minutes ago, psychicsurveyor said:

We should all remember the Governments aim isn't to restrict our freedom,

I certainly wouldn't take that for granted. The government's aim is certainly to make us think it isn't trying to restrict our freedom. 
The Contract Tracing App is a good example of incursions into our freedom however they try to spin it. It's not a criticism per se, but a genuine concern. Why it chose a centralised system when 95% of the rest of the world chose a decentralised system remains a valid question. 

 

13 minutes ago, Maxwellian said:

Those who have common sense would most likely use it Peter. The problem is that many appear not to have any.

Yeah. Looking at the images from the tube Yesterday shows the levels of common sense on show. Packed platforms and trains in one of the most densely populated cities in Europe and hardly a facemask in sight. What could possibly go wrong? 

[Oddfellow]

1 minute ago, Paladin said:

Define day-boat.

If I take out a small open boat for the day, I will have no on-board hand-washing facilities (OK, so I can take some alcohol gel, which is less effective than soap and hot water), no toilet facilities (bucket-and-chuck-it or bin liner...nice) and public facilites are all closed.

If I take my cabin cruiser out for the day, I have on-board soap and hot water and full toilet facilities available.

My common sense tells me a cabin cruiser, used for a day, is preferable.

 

I can't see operators opening for day hire any time soon. Paddle operators might, but the points made by Paladin are valid. There's also the very real issue of PPE and other protective measures for staff and operations Significant cleaning regimes and having to take somebody's word that the six people presenting all live in the same household..... 

Marry that with the cost of actually opening for likely small numbers of people.... not for me. 

[JawsOrca]

Looking at the British marine document it reads as it's guidance to follow. It seems MDL marinas are permitting access from wednesday and I'm seeing local yacht clubs permitting access so as usual it seems it's open to individual interpretation.  Thing with Marinas/Caravan parks is (and not kinda pointing anywhere) is that it's a subscription service they get the money regardless if they are open or not, it doesn't quite matter to them if you are permitted in and they wont open if there's any small leeway.  I'd also suspect if there are residential people in there (hidden) then it seems morals are kicking in and quite rightly they are protecting them too. 

Personally I can't see any difference to me being on my boat in norfolk compared to me living here aboard on the medway. I'd feel safer in norfolk where at least I could really get away from people but we never moor near anyone else anyway although I understand how many others do.. 

I suspect marinas etc are set to open in the next few weeks although stupid londoners are apparently cramming on the underground already so I bet we see a second peak which will force a stronger lockdown and kill many thousands: https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-commuters-pack-london-tube-platforms-after-pms-lockdown-announcement-11986344?fbclid=IwAR1eaPEWIx6RkPGbWRUKXsljL-Lig67NoXdyXbnOwfU0IDZtLLKFfDxevfQ

Everything crossed still.

[marshman]

Interestingly the C&RT have NOT changed their guidance given on Monday - they make no mention of marinas. Just 

Sadly I feel this is a total waste of time. Boris seems incapable of making decisions and he is being guided by experts - trouble is there are now so many experts giving differing messages to the Govt, it is difficult to know which is either sensible or correct. The situation is being made worse by the unions, whats left of them now generally in the public sector, seeing the opportunity to poke at their chief tormentor and using the general fear of individuals to hinder the reversal of the  lockdown process. Watch this space the latter will accelerate now they have tasted some success I fear and they will grab any opportunity to regain lost ground!!!

As far as the BA are concerned lets see some initiative. Don't do what the BMF has done and asked permission - the answer to them was inevitable I am afraid, and it will be the same to the BA as well. Ultimately that will only make it worse for BA and perhaps it will cause them to fall on their sword brought on by their indecisions. If they don't do anything positive soon, you can kiss goodbye to next years funding and then they are further into the mire!

( and of course Andy the answer to the full trains is to run a few more of them but see above!!! )

[Paladin]

13 minutes ago, marshman said:

As far as the BA are concerned lets see some initiative. Don't do what the BMF has done and asked permission - the answer to them was inevitable I am afraid, and it will be the same to the BA as well. Ultimately that will only make it worse for BA and perhaps it will cause them to fall on their sword brought on by their indecisions. If they don't do anything positive soon, you can kiss goodbye to next years funding and then they are further into the mire!

So what would happen if, despite government guidance that leisure boating isn't one of those activities that should resume, the BA tells us we can start using our boats again. The regulation is very clear: "During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse." It would be the boater who would have to convince a court that ignoring government advice, in favour of the advice given by an unaccountable quango, is a "reasonable excuse" for contravening that regulation.

I wouldn't like to be defending that case.

[floydraser]

18 minutes ago, marshman said:

Sadly I feel this is a total waste of time. Boris seems incapable of making decisions and he is being guided by experts - trouble is there are now so many experts giving differing messages to the Govt, it is difficult to know which is either sensible or correct.

Personally I was reassured when Chris Whitty inferred that Boris was listening to all the expert advice. And after that, even Laura K-berg said that Boris had now made things clear. The latter came as a massive shock!

[Meantime]

30 minutes ago, JawsOrca said:

Looking at the British marine document it reads as it's guidance to follow.

It is guidance based upon clarification sought from the government. They would have been better off not asking, a view the RYA would appear to share.

From the BMF document

Question: Should we shut our marinas to leisure berth holders?

Answer: We have asked the government and their response was that marinas should be treated the same way as caravan parks which have been directed to close.

The following from the RYA,

Many marinas and moorings across the country have closed completely as a result of the Coronavirus crisis, the result is that boat owners cannot get access to their boats to undertake essential maintenance and security checks. This measure has been implemented by marina and moorings operators based on guidance from their trade body which we consider incorrectly interprets the Coronavirus restriction regulations and Government guidance. *

*Not strictly true, the BMF are not interpreting the regulations, they asked a direct question of the government.

Over recent weeks the RYA has been in discussions with Government officials to make the case for limited and controlled access to boats locked down in marinas. However these representations to date have not delivered a solution, therefore the RYA has written to key Government Ministers to seek support for a clear and practical approach that complies with the Coronavirus Regulations and the spirit of Government guidance to give owners immediate access to their boats.

 

[JennyMorgan]

The BA appears to be waiting to see what what other Authorities are doing, forgetting, once again, that the Broads is the Broads, a unique institution. I agree with Marshman,  the BA needs to take the initiative rather than leaving it to DEFRA. A one size fits all, DEFRA solution is not the answer! 

[Oddfellow]

3 minutes ago, Paladin said:

So what would happen if, despite government guidance that leisure boating isn't one of those activities that should resume, the BA tells us we can start using our boats again. The regulation is very clear: "During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse." It would be the boater who would have to convince a court that ignoring government advice, in favour of the advice given by an unaccountable quango, is a "reasonable excuse" for contravening that regulation.

I wouldn't like to be defending that case.

For sure, the BA will not forward advice that is out of step with the government; unlike Demonic Raab and other MPs. It has sought a response from DEFRA and will disseminate that. 

The new guidance is awash with faults. It remains a breeding ground for loopholes and the fact is that the police will not be able to police it properly anyway. 

There is little doubt in my mind that the infection rate will spike again (how can it not looking at public transport scenes yesterday?) and the problems will continue until sensible, unquestionable instructions are given. I don't want to be told what to do by Government, but I am happy to at this time as it keeps people safe. Common Sense is one of the biggest misnomers in English phraseology and at times like these this fact is plastered all over the media.  

Back to reasonable excuse. The blurring of the lines by the new guidelines will be mitigation enough to make any court hearing extremely challenging for either party, regardless of the "reasonable excuse" part in leaving home, especially the bit that says, and I quote "People may drive to outdoor spaces irrespective of distance". Ignoring the madness of this, it's so woolly so as can be interpreted in almost any way you want.  

 

[Timbo]

I was wondering Paladin, would the regulations created in the statutory instrument of the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020 under section 45R of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984 have not been amended? Would alteration to this statutory instrument be an indication of government thinking on the epidemic and management of population movement?

[Oddfellow]

6 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

The BA appears to be waiting to see what what other Authorities are doing, forgetting, once again, that the Broads is the Broads, a unique institution. I agree with Marshman,  the BA needs to take the initiative rather than leaving it to DEFRA. A one size fits all, DEFRA solution is not the answer! 

Peter, do you not think that creating certain rules for certain areas would be hugely dangerous in the interpretation and adherence to rules? 
It is surely a recipe for disaster as people become belligerent with stupid arguments like, "but they're allowed to do X, why aren't we?" 

The Broads is a special place and there are some "spechul" people here too, but let's not suggest that it's special enough to have entirely different lock-down rules to anywhere else right now. Safety first. Always. 

[Meantime]

6 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

The BA appears to be waiting to see what what other Authorities are doing, forgetting, once again, that the Broads is the Broads, a unique institution. I agree with Marshman,  the BA needs to take the initiative rather than leaving it to DEFRA. A one size fits all, DEFRA solution is not the answer! 

The BA have not closed the navigation. Like before if someone chooses to go cruising all they can do is report you to the Police. The Police would then need to decide whether under the amended guidance you are breaking the law. I guess one of the key words in the easing of the lockdown is that you may drive to other places such as beaches and parks. It did not say you could cruise. I feel that cruising would still be very much not in the spirit of the new guidelines. Visiting your boat if it is not in a marina is another matter.

[Chelsea14Ian]

I think the new rules will be pushed this weekend. Many will try there luck to see where they can go.And how much they can get away with.This morning  reps from the lakes and some of the seasides have said stay away.Dont come here yet.Sorry Alan people  going to work many of which have very little choice,have to use the transport system. More trains are needed now.

[marshman]

Yes Ian, I agree but guess what the obstacle to more trains is?

Similarly primary schools I guess, and  rubbish tips (other than the hedge! )

(Sorry Mods thats political - must be careful. Slapped wrist!! )

[Oddfellow]

8 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

The Police would then need to decide whether under the amended guidance you are breaking the law. I guess one of the key words in the easing of the lockdown is that you may drive to other places such as beaches and parks. It did not say you could cruise.

The document doesn't say this. Boris did. This is from the document:

 

People may drive to outdoor open spaces irrespective of distance, so long as they respect social distancing guidance while they are there, because this does not involve contact with people outside your household. When travelling to outdoor spaces, it is important that people respect the rules in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and do not travel to different parts of the UK where it would be inconsistent with guidance or regulations issued by the relevant devolved administration. These measures may come with some risk; it is important that everyone continues to act responsibly, as the large majority have done to date. The infection rate will increase if people begin to break these rules and, for example, mix in groups in parks, which will trigger the need for further restrictions.

 

The messages are clearly mixed and being interpreted and passed on like Chinese Whispers to be used in any form of justification that anybody sees fit to work with their narrative. Can you say Chinese Whispers any more? :-)

 

[Poppy]

The tubes have been mentioned more than once. Let's not forget tha TFL reduced the frequency and size of trains because of 'reduced demand'. 

This now needs to be addressed - urgently.

[Chelsea14Ian]

Think they've said more trains will be put back on.Public transport is the largest worry for all of us.

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, Paladin said:

My common sense tells me a cabin cruiser, used for a day, is preferable.

Whilst my common sense tells me that if cabin cruisers are used as day boats then there will, inevitably, be those that abuse the situation, which would surely not be preferable!