Waveney Pegasus - The Strangest Design Ever?

[Maxwellian]

I think it best to wait a response from WRC please.

[annv]

Hi Cal They don't work that way,  if shore power is present the inverter is switched off automatically,  the charger will only charge the batteries,   you will get mains power to the sockets,  if shore power is switched of the inverter switches on and provides mains power from the battery's,  the charger IF BATTERIES NOT CONNECTED will provide 12 volt power from shore power until the shore power is switched off  this is for when batteries are removed you can still run the 12volts side ie winter lay up, the charger will only work when shore power is on. John

[dnks34]

You would think this should have been a very simple issue for the boatyard to sort out.  If the batteries are not being charged by the alternator its not hard to work through the setup to suss out where the problem is. 

[Cal]

1 hour ago, annv said:

Hi Cal They don't work that way,  if shore power is present the inverter is switched off automatically,  the charger will only charge the batteries,   you will get mains power to the sockets,  if shore power is switched of the inverter switches on and provides mains power from the battery's,  the charger IF BATTERIES NOT CONNECTED will provide 12 volt power from shore power until the shore power is switched off  this is for when batteries are removed you can still run the 12volts side ie winter lay up, the charger will only work when shore power is on. John

Depends how the boats are wired up. If that is how it is supposed to work on that boat then something else is very amiss.

 

I know with our boat we have to check before we switch the inverter on that we have switched off the battery charger!!

[Cal]

48 minutes ago, dnks34 said:

You would think this should have been a very simple issue for the boatyard to sort out.  If the batteries are not being charged by the alternator its not hard to work through the setup to suss out where the problem is. 

Agreed.

[annv]

Hi Cal in which case you haven't got a combined charger/inverter which is safer and a lot less money two items takes up more space, more wiring, boat yard would go for combined one,  safer/less money/less space. John

[annv]

Hi Cal this is mine all automatically switched so no arrears,  boat yard would go with similar system. John

[dnks34]

Our last boat was wired in such a way that only the sockets worked with the inverter.  The immersion and battery charger only operated when on shore power via a double pole manual changeover switch inverter/off/shore

As Cal says it all depends how its been wired up.  Inverter/chargers are good but with seperate units one going faulty wont affect the other.  I used Victron equipment and had a stand alone Inverter and 2 separate battery chargers one for 12v and one for the 24v system.

[OldBerkshireBoy]

I prefer seperate units, easier to fault find and cheaper to replace even if more costly at the outset.

[Vaughan]

2 hours ago, annv said:

An interesting photo which I have been looking at for quite a few minutes!

There is no doubt that the boat we are discussing would have to be fitted with a circuit similar to this and as far as I can see, this is simply part of the "domestic" battery circuit, with the charger/inverter on top and  a very heavy duty charge splitter beneath it. I wondered where the 220volt circuit was but of course, that is hidden behind insulated conduits, as it should be (must be) in a boat.

The domestic battery looks like something of around 220 amp/hours and may not be the only one! There will also be a starter battery, out of sight to the right of the photo. I also think there will be a lot of 220 volt kit off to the left of the photo!

Not sure what the little red box is at the bottom, but I am sure it is doing something useful!

I notice your use of fast fuses on the main domestic feed and (I think) the starter circuit. These are not normal on a conventional Broads circuit but are often fitted nowadays, with all the amperage involved.

Could this have been the problem, on the boat we are talking about? When you start up an engine and ask the alternator to accept the load on a large bank of "flat" batteries, it might well blow a fuse! Or if no fuse fitted, it might well burn out.

[annv]

Hi Vaughan it's a battery maintainer that keeps the starter battery charged via the three domestic batteries that are kept charged via a solar panel and yes correct the 12 volt and 240 volt are to the left on separate Rcb &  mcb switched circuit panels inside the cabin. John

[Vaughan]

6 minutes ago, annv said:

Hi Vaughan it's a battery maintainer that keeps the starter battery charged via the three domestic batteries that are kept charged via a solar panel and yes correct the 12 volt and 240 volt are to the left on separate Rcb &  mcb switched circuit panels inside the cabin. John

So do you think this Waveney boat may have blown a fast fuse on the alternator charging circuit?

[annv]

Hi I wouldn't have thought so it is easy to check voltage from alternator BUT was the chap electricly trained and had a AVO with him or just a helpful guy from the workforce expecting to just check the obvious user faults if it was the main fuze a get you home piece of wire would have done the job PROVIDING you new what you were doing he would have checked the ordinary fuzes which would have been Mcb's and apparently the boat had a history of battery problems which needed some hours with a trained electrician when boat needed in couple of hours next hirer is on his way??? to check the batteries properly would need two to three days on test bench/not being used on boat moored up quickest would depending where they are would be to replace with fresh proven batteries but if 220's tucked away nobody is going to relish the task or! just a dry joint somewhere that could have been prevented bye greasing the connections at build?? doubt if we will ever know. John

[OldBerkshireBoy]

annv, sorry bud but dangerous to mention replacing a fuse with wire on a public open forum. In the worst case wires can overheat and start a fire.

[annv]

Yes but most boats don't have a fuze on alternator circuit it is just wire so where is the danger your just lowering the spec. John

[Vaughan]

Without annv or I going into any further detail, I think this shows how complicated things can get when hire boats get sophisticated. 

There is an old principle of physics : If you want energy, you have always got to pay for it.

 A 90 amp alternator takes just under 5 horsepower off an engine. So fitting 2 of them, to power all the domestics, takes 10 HP off what is only a 40 HP engine in the first place!

So you fit a big turbo engine to still give you shaft horsepower and also feed the electric supply to the galley.

And then think about the extra fuel consumption.

And the list goes on.

In my view, keep it simple and enjoy a basic, trouble free boating holiday!

[OldBerkshireBoy]

1 minute ago, annv said:

Yes but most boats don't have a fuze on alternator circuit it is just wire so where is the danger your just lowering the spec. John

Without doubt you know far more than I on 12 & 24v systems however the very mention of fuses and wires makes me jumpy if people think it might sort their problem at home, this is from somebody who once found a pub robbing electricity via a 4" nail.

I now apologise and withdraw from this thread.

[annv]

Hi Nay problem we are talking boats here but ref your nail the supply was no doubt fuzed and the other end went to a fuze so only danger was to person that handled the nail a nail is the same as wire size for size just ridged. John

[dnks34]

Did the WRC build this boat themselves? Would a healthy supply of spare fuses not be available to them, if not it should be!

 

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, dnks34 said:

Did the WRC build this boat themselves? Would a healthy supply of spare fuses not be available to them, if not it should be!

I think this is what I was trying to say myself. Broads hire boats normally do not have a fuse on the charging circuit, nor on the direct cable from the battery to the starter motor.

So would a normal boatyard engineer have known that he might be looking for a blown fuse, if the batteries were discharged? 

The more complicated it gets, the more difficult it can be to diagnose, and mend.

 

[750XL]

1 hour ago, dnks34 said:

Did the WRC build this boat themselves? Would a healthy supply of spare fuses not be available to them, if not it should be!

 

This was the placard at the helm. Vogue Marine, I assume!

[NorfolkNog]

 

[NorfolkNog]

......sorry should have maybe done the link

 

https://forum.norfolkbroadsnetwork.com/topic/17698-vogue-marine-brundall/

 

[NorfolkNog]

Hmmmmmmm.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/11328803/filing-history

 

[annv]

When delivered it would have had build book with wiring diagrams water runs etc ie like a workshop manual which would cover every electrical,  mechanical, and plumbing fittings plus lots of theatrical figures. John