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3 hours ago, ranworthbreeze said:

History has shown that the Berney Arms has been through lean times and long periods of closure since the first licence was issued. No doubt back in the day marsh-men would have kept it going but in today's market a few boat calling in would never pay for the running costs let alone paying any form of wage to the management.  Sadly this establishment is seen through rose coloured glasses at times.

I don't agree that the Berney cannot be a successful business. No, it wouldn't support a manager, No it wouldn't support a tenant at the rents last inflicted, but an owner running it, that would be a different matter. The difficulty getting toi it is one of the things going for it.

Most here will remember how the Geldeston locks used to be. Now under new management there was a scare that it's unique properties would be lost and the pub would die. The same goes for the Berney. It will work again if the character of the pub isn't destroyed. Twitchers by foot, visitors by train plus of course customers by boat. there is a sufficient customer base to be utilised.

It all depends on the current owner selling it on for a sensible price. Sadly that's the problem. The business opportunities there are many, and it's remoteness is one of it's strengths.

Rose tinted glasses? I think not! 

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Hi Ian, I've just had a chat with Howard in Broads Control and so I'm replying on here on his behalf (and for the benefit of other forum members). To answer your question, the Authority has

Morning Ian, Apologies for the delay in response, here is a summation of the hours included in the original application (which is the application objected to), provided by our Asset Officer.

The decision has been made. The Bereny Arms will remain closed because the application has been rejected. The moorings are going to be closed by the landowner because he can no longer afford to mainta

I,ve always  believed if its run properly it could be a success. The problem  is with the owner.Spot on ,the  right owner it could  well be a great pub.Sadly I think the chances of him selling the pub are as likely as me winning millions on the lotto.

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9 minutes ago, Chelsea14Ian said:

I,ve always  believed if its run properly it could be a success. The problem  is with the owner.Spot on ,the  right owner it could  well be a great pub.Sadly I think the chances of him selling the pub are as likely as me winning millions on the lotto.

You and I agree on this one. Not only a great pub but a wonderful B&B, a stop-over for ramblers and backpackers. The building needs to be sold at an attractive price to an attractive couple both with attractive ideas and vision and looking forward, not backwards. The stumbling block, and the same can be said for the Beauchamp Arms, is the owner. 

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4 hours ago, ranworthbreeze said:

History has shown that the Berney Arms has been through lean times and long periods of closure since the first licence was issued. No doubt back in the day marsh-men would have kept it going but in today's market a few boat calling in would never pay for the running costs let alone paying any form of wage to the management.  Sadly this establishment is seen through rose coloured glasses at times.

Plus apparently (from the hearing) Hire Craft were not going to be encouraged?

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6 minutes ago, Chelsea14Ian said:

Any craft hire or private can use the BA 24 hour moorings. 

Thinking about (in the light of the increase in Broads Holidays) the owner/tenant could have found a modest income source by charging for mooring (at worst it would look good in a business plan) :default_smile:

Was it there or somewhere else that someone was trying to charge boats on a BA mooring

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9 minutes ago, Bytheriver said:

Thinking about (in the light of the increase in Broads Holidays) the owner/tenant could have found a modest income source by charging for mooring (at worst it would look good in a business plan) :default_smile:

Was it there or somewhere else that someone was trying to charge boats on a BA mooring

I think it was there, a couple of years ago. 

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If you go back about four years ago.By which time the pub was shut.People moored ar what was the pub moorings.And people  at the cafe would charge £10 to moor .Think that carried on for a time.

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The Police representation for this licensing application probably has hit the nail fair and squarely on the head here. As much as I would dearly love to see this pub reopened again, what Mr Hollocks had planned for the bistro is probably something that none of us would have wanted!!!

To give some background, the management Mr Hollocks also own the Beauchamp Arms, Langley and this
premises is similar in terms of a riverside location and needing refurbishment.
For the last few years, the Beauchamp Arms has been used as a venue for dance event organisers to hold
their events there. Temporary Event Notices were applied for by various organisers but these have recently
stopped due to the South Norfolk District Council Noise Pollution team objecting due to excess noise
impacting neighbouring properties.
I am concerned that either intentionally or not, the granting of this licence will result in this site being used to
host similar events to those that were at the Beauchamp which would be extremely unsuitable for the
location and without safeguards.

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5 hours ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Temporary Event Notices were applied for by various organisers but these have recently
stopped due to the South Norfolk District Council Noise Pollution team objecting due to excess noise
impacting neighbouring properties.

The events at Beauchamp did tend to be 'drum and bass', the bass being the problem. One night I was moored at Cantley and the boom-boom thump-thump of the bass at Beauchamp was clearly audible, several miles away. Indeed I did hear that it was also heard at Reedham. No, it wasn't from somewhere else, my daughter was one of the DJ's! Some years ago, about twenty, it was one of my daughter's 18th birthday, that was an event and a half. We had borrowed the sound system from the Royal Norfolk & Suffolk Yacht Club, bigger than we thought! The speakers were aimed out across the marshes rather than towards our neighbours. The next day a friendly 'copper' from Beccles, some ten or so miles away as the crow flies, had been out for most of the night searching for a rave. I don't suppose it was thought that a so called posh area of Oulton Broad would be host to such an event! I kept suitably quiet! The point being that sound can travel for many miles across the flat marshes and they aren't much flatter than they are at Berney!

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As you can see I contacted BA to ask about the 24 hour moorings. My post and that of the Broads Authority are posted yesterday. Also a post on the Southern boat owners (Facebook)quoting a piece in the EDP regarding  the rejected application for the licence. I mentioned  the fact that I contacted BA about there 24 moorings and they confirmed that both would  remain. Since then about three people, one of which seems to be they spokesman were convinced I knew more then I said.I keep telling them my only concern  was there (BA) moorings  would  remain.They didn't  believe me. In the end I told them that if they weren't happy then contact them, and it was pointless them to keep asking me the same question. One thing for sure if they spoke to those  that conducted the application in the same way they wrote there post,think that wouldn't  help there case one bit.

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I cannot understand why the noise factor is seen as such a huge problem.

Some years ago I worked for the local council and remember having to visit establishments which had entertainment licences.

some of these establishments had restrictions placed on the licence regarding the time when the playing of music ( live or recorded) had to cease and some even had restrictions re the level of the noise allowed . This involved the fitting of equipment which monitored the noise level and if it got above the permitted level it automatically switched off the speakers for 5 minutes

Could this idea be used in the granting of the licence?

Jeff

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A licence application is based on what was asked for, going by Tom's response there was no real communication therefore the answer was no, with a few comprimises on both sides and it may have been acceptable and got through with modification.

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1 hour ago, jeffbroadslover said:

I cannot understand why the noise factor is seen as such a huge problem.

Sound levels are measured relative to background noise which on the Broads can be next to nil. I'm no expert but a gentleman who is explained to me that sound over water is a science in its own right. He also stated that in some circumstances sound can actually increase over water and marshland. A year or two ago now my wife and I spent the night at Geldeston Locks, not knowing when we moored up that there was going to be a wedding lock-down that night which was to go on until well past four in the morning. Going to sleep before it finished was not an option.

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I have to agree with MM on this one . The Berney Arms , with investment could most certainly be a viable proposition , it would never be likely to be hugely profitable but would be an excellent “lifestyle” business for a couple to take on .

Its remoteness would be its USP beyond doubt , and that would make it a destination pub which often do better trade wise than off the high street hostelries ..

If I were of a mind to return to the licensed trade I would find it a most interesting proposition ; I believe if it were returned to a 1930’s type of Inn offering simple home cooked meals , a small but well kept range of local ales , I suppose lager would have to be proffered to suit modern (bad) taste, traditional pub games such as bar billiards , cribbage , 9 man Morris etc along with two or three well appointed rooms (utilising the outbuildings) for overnight guests a couple could make a reasonable living .

The traditional pub used to be a lifestyle choice and the majority of publicans despite their moaning about the hard work, long hours  and the small financial reward wouldn’t change it for anything , I know I loved the life and without my children I would still be in the trade today.

 

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10 hours ago, jeffbroadslover said:

I cannot understand why the noise factor is seen as such a huge problem.

Some years ago I worked for the local council and remember having to visit establishments which had entertainment licences.

some of these establishments had restrictions placed on the licence regarding the time when the playing of music ( live or recorded) had to cease and some even had restrictions re the level of the noise allowed . This involved the fitting of equipment which monitored the noise level and if it got above the permitted level it automatically switched off the speakers for 5 minutes

Could this idea be used in the granting of the licence?

Jeff

I too was involved for many years with discussions between all the parties involved in putting on minor & major outdoor events (at the time when technology was getting better by the year). Including incidentally the preparations for the starting venue for the  infamous  Trafalgar Square Poll Tax Demonstration (riot) including a gathering or 150 + at Scotland Yard the day before.

Whether small or large its all about sitting around a table or even meeting on site to look at the options.

It was interesting to note that reference was made to what is now known as the Purple Guide which started as  the Purple Book- the bible for outdoor events which was written with a lot of input from the authority I worked for .Many Local Authorities now publish their own slimmed down versions.The new version is constantly updated and available on-line.

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Those who have seen the lengthy discussion in EDP, many concerned at the reasons (correct & assumed) for the refusal of the licence may be interested to  hear the example of a incident at Reedham yesterday right next to the Quay Rangers Hut (who was on duty) in broad daylight on a sunny Sunday afternoon (I saw the Ambulance arrive) According to a report elsewhere this was followed by  the Coastguard and two Lifeboat Crews to assist in getting one patient off of a craft moored to the quay (where the tide range is a couple of feet).

(I do realise the person could have equally fallen ill moored  at Berney but sort of puts the pitfalls into context)

Just imagine getting that lot plus two fire trucks and three police cars over two un-staffed level crossings off off the Acle Straight !

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I for one wouldn't  moor at Berney  arms if there was a music event there,full stop.My reasons staying there has been until five odd years ago.Was always a pleasant few hours in the pub,then waiting  for the tide to cross over  to the north.The last thing I would  do is stay there trying to sleep,listening  to loud music coming from a bistro.Last week mooring there overnight was nice,would  have been really good if the pub  was still there sadly not,least no very loud music. 

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On 25/07/2020 at 22:10, Chelsea14Ian said:

When you say early hours, can I ask what time in the morning? The pub after all is in a remote  part of the broads.

Morning Ian,

Apologies for the delay in response, here is a summation of the hours included in the original application (which is the application objected to), provided by our Asset Officer.

License application to:

  • Open café at 06:00am for breakfasts and offer suitable liquor sales all day
  • Live music and alcohol sales from 06:00am – 02:00am on Monday to Thursday, from 06:00am - 03:00am on Friday and Saturday, and from 06:00am - 12:00am on Sundays
  • Outside music to go into marquee from midnight on all days
  • On all bank holidays – licence extend to 04:00am for music and alcohol.
  • On New Years eve to New Years day, a 48hr continuous licence.
  • Supply of alcohol for consumption on or off the premises.

I have been informed that the consideration relating to noise pollution resulted from the late night nature of the application for live music, the fact that Berney is a low background noise area in itself, and finally that the flat marshland surroundings mean there is a likelihood that noise would travel great distances.

Best.

Edit: To clarify, the licensing hours were changed multiple times by the applicants during the hearing meeting. The above hours were ones formally objected to by the Authority. The updated hours were discussed by the hearing panel, a full video of which can be found on this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYHn1boH34A

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Possibly the best way to effect a rescue there could be by (life)boat? 

The music does seem to be the big issue. I don't suppose many folks want to be moored next to that. 

Interestingly Colin Smith regularly put on music events at the Locks including 'sound machine' type events - I don't know if there were any issues. Certainly land access was easier, albeit by marsh track. I don't think anyone could seriously contemplate regular land access to the Berney. 

I also agree with CC - if the place was in the hands of an experienced and enthusiastic operator who could engage positively with all concerned it could work I'm sure. As mentioned Colin ran the Locks successfully for many years, he understood the Broads and had the skills needed to run a remote and highly seasonal operation.

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Well well well - so he wasnt making a serious attempt at getting a licence then? I wonder where he thought his clientele would be coming from? Perhaps he had been out to Ibiza lately and decided that Yarmouth wanted a "booze cruise" destination?

I suppose it won't be long before a change of use application comes in - anyone seen the state of the Griffin on Yarmouth Road in Thorpe? Having left it unsecured for a long time and planning rejected there for housing, the owners are asking £50000 rent p.a. for effectively a pile of rubble!!!!

No surprise their intention either....!!!

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19 minutes ago, BroadsAuthority said:

Morning Ian,

Apologies for the delay in response, here is a summation of the hours included in the original application (which is the application objected to), provided by our Asset Officer.

License application to:

  • Open café at 06:00am for breakfasts and offer suitable liquor sales all day
  • Live music and alcohol sales from 06:00am – 02:00am on Monday to Thursday, from 06:00am - 03:00am on Friday and Saturday, and from 06:00am - 12:00am on Sundays
  • Outside music to go into marquee from midnight on all days
  • On all bank holidays – licence extend to 04:00am for music and alcohol.
  • On New Years eve to New Years day, a 48hr continuous licence.
  • Supply of alcohol for consumption on or off the premises.

I have been informed that the consideration relating to noise pollution resulted from the late night nature of the application for live music, the fact that Berney is a low background noise area in itself, and finally that the flat marshland surroundings mean there is a likelihood that noise would travel great distances.

Best.

Hi Tom,

Having just watched the 2hr meeting I can tell you that those times are now incorrect and were heavily amended during the meeting with the agreement of the applicant. Angie O'Connor who was present at the meeting should be able to provide the fully revised list of times that were considered as part of the application.

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Well true MM but there are similarities, remoteness seasonal trade logistical challenges mains services etc etc . Interestingly I understand that the rent on the Locks was half that being demanded at the Berney.. Which all comes back to the landlord again. 

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