Double Mooring Without Permission

[TheQ]

23 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Nothing else better to do on a gorgeous sunny day? 

Apart, that is, from painting the inside of my rowing boat, an 18' Thames skiff, taking about an hour and a half for each coat but at least I'm sweating off all those extra 'lock-down' pounds!

I had to make up a bandana , my sweat was dripping into the varnish over the weekend..

[Davydine]

15 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

I dont wish to turn this into a protracted argument but to me your reasoning has little to do with the double mooring debate, we are talking about the Broads where although not desirable its possible tides permitting you can get from anywhere to anywhere in a day, its not location critical as may well be the case with a Sea crossing. 

As for specific moorings for me they are all there for the enjoyment of that location fore whatever reason you choose them

Taking your choice of BA moorings at Stokesby, including somewhere that would accomodate 3 38' to 40' boats is  a tad optomistic at the least and to include in that the expectation that others would have to accomodate you underlines the attitude that so many object to

Fred

Nor, was I trying to make this an argument, just highlight the difference between my experience on the sea and what people were discussing on the broads, but I seem to have had my “attitude” called in to question.

You are correct, about Stokesby, the BA web site says it is 33m long, so it would be tight for 3 boats, which, I assume is why they designate it as a double mooring. Someone in a 40 ft. Boat could probably moor in the middle and their would be no room for anyone else.

For clarity, I am very unlikely to want to double moor, I would almost certainly go somewhere else, particularly in a hire boat where there wouldn't be enough warps to take a line ashore.

If I was on a wild mooring or a normal single mooring I wouldn't expect anyone to moor alongside me, If I was on a mooring that is designated as a double, be it BA, a yacht station or any other then I would expect to let someone alongside. In the unlikely event that I needed to, I would expect the same courtesy to be returned if possible and safe to do so. I know that the BA signs have been amended to say about getting permission, but i honestly don't feel I would have the right to refuse unless I had a very good reason.

I was recently looking through some slides from our holidays in the early 70s. The obligatory photo from the top of Ranworth church shows boats rafted about 6 deep on Ranworth staith. Rafting up isn't a new expectation, it used to be the norm. I am not sure when that changed.
As Cambridge Cabby said, the broads was always associated with a friendly atmosphere and I for one, would like to think that was still the case.

[Vaughan]

I have only just caught up on this thread, since Tuesday and I hesitate to "dabble my toe" in this particular water!  It is true though, that "back in my day" and right into the seventies, double mooring  was the thing to do.

44 minutes ago, Davydine said:

The obligatory photo from the top of Ranworth church shows boats rafted about 6 deep on Ranworth staith.

Stern on mooring was quite rare in the old days and so Horning Staithe and Ranworth were rafted up moorings.  To say nothing of GYYS!

I notice also that while there were 3000 hire boats in those days, there were very few private boats that regularly cruised the north rivers.  They mainly stayed on private moorings in such places as Wroxham Broad.  Nowadays it is reversed, and there are now 3000 private boats on the Broads, compared to (around) 700 hire boats.  The private boats themselves cruise more regularly and so are more often to be found on BA moorings.

So have attitudes changed?  Does today's private owner expect more privacy and were the hirers of the 60s and 70s more gregarious in their approach to a boating holiday?

Personally, I have always found that the main question to  be answered when double mooring is "what time to you intend to leave in the morning?"  Very often, you end up meeting some great people, and have a good night together in the pub as a result!

[Vaughan]

I have been having a think about my earlier post and there is another big factor here :

All those 3000 hire boats in the 60s came from well over 100 boatyards, all of whom were providing free moorings to their own (and other) agencies boats and all of whom would not turn away a private boat either.  No wonder there was no problem mooring in Wroxham in those days, although the public staithe is only about 40 yards long.

So if you wanted to stop in Horning for the night to visit the pubs and found the staithe full, you could find a free welcome on the front at Percivals, Banhams or Southgates (Lower St),  or stop a bit further down at Turners or the lovely secluded basin in Chumley and Hawkes and walk up to the Petersfield Country Club - which also had its own customers' moorings.

Or you could take the other option and moor free on the grass bank on the other side, which extended from Southgates (at the New Inn) to about 300 yards upstream of the Swan corner and come across in your dinghy.  Nowadays, on what little is left of those moorings, you pay getting on for ten quid to stop for an hour's picnic lunch! 

Horning used to be proud to call itself the second most important holiday centre on the northern Broads.  It certainly can't now and maybe this is why not!

In those days at least a third (maybe half) of those who hired a cruiser also hired a dinghy - rowing or sailing.  Another reason not to try to moor stern on! I  also think it's fair to say that the classic Broads cruisers of pre and post War were not designed with access to the accommodation from the aft deck, apart from maybe a sliding hatch over a gangway ladder.

There is no doubt that times have changed and today's users of the Broads - private and hire - are having to get used to living with those changes, especially on what few public moorings are now available, to replace what the boatyards used to accommodate.

What's more, just for once, we can't blame this trend on the virus!

 

 

[vanessan]

23 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

What's more, just for once, we can't blame this trend on the virus!

Or Brexit! 

[trambo]

26 minutes ago, vanessan said:

Or Brexit! 

Brexit?......Whats that? 

[rightsaidfred]

Firstly let me say I don't mean to offend anyone but I do take exception to being told what I should do, especially when I have taken steps to make my own position secure.

To try and answer the enduring hire/private question we hired for well over 20 years till several years ago when we bought the boat to enjoy our retirement, my pleasure comes from fishing and watching the wildlife I also enjoy meeting people, the wife has her own interests none of this is enhanced by or even possible looking at the side of another boat, I can do that sitting in my marina..

Before its mentioned we  dont mudweight or wild moor for specific reasons but as I pay a considerable amount in tolls I have no need or reason to justify our use of 24hr moorings.

Fred

[vanessan]

1 hour ago, trambo said:

Brexit?......Whats that? 

You’ll be reminded - pretty soon I think! 🙄

[Paul]

On 11/08/2020 at 23:29, JennyMorgan said:

I've long regarded rafting up/double mooring as a matter of mutual courtesy and co-operation. Common courtesy that the outside boat skipper asks and common courtesy that the inside boat skipper says yes. Such is the spirit of boating  as ably highlighted by Davydine. I go along with the sadly departed Trudi Wakelin on this one. Nice people ask and nice people say yes, isn't that how life should be?

It is indeed, and it is how it once was, but as I have watched the demographic of boat owners change over the last twenty years or more, so I have noticed many of these former courtesies disappear. 

Allow me to relate two occurrences. The first being the year Brister's closed in Wroxham. We always used Brister for moorings in Wroxham and unaware of their closure looked to do so again, only to find the yard closed, tape across the moorings and no mooring signs on the key heading. This would I think have been 2004. It was a miserable day, lashing down but someone had to go to Roy's to replenish provender or we would be drinking black tea and eating pedigree chum. Sabena was full so we motored up the dyke to what is now Ricko's day boat yard, turned and heading back down the dyke an elderly gent waved to me and asked if I needed to moor. I explained we needed to restock, and he waved me into his boat dyke and unlocked the side gate for me. I went and restocked with the addition of a bottle of Mr Roy's best Malbec which was deposited with our kind hosts and we pushed off back down river to boil the kettle and cook our tinned pie. 

During that same holiday we were moored at Neatishead enjoying a pleasant evening when, quite late in the evening a connoisseur came in, a big one and moored on the opposite side of the staithe to us, in front of a lovely old woody, beautiful cream painted hull and varnished topsides. We had exchanged courtesies earlier in the afternoon and I apologised for drooling over their bright work, in fact we had quite a chat. The connoisseur sat there, engine running after about an hour of which the occupant of said gorgeous woodie approached the occupants of the stinky connoisseur along the lines of, might you switch your engine off, it's shattering the peace and asphyxiating everyone nearby. Those old connoisseur's weren't half noisy, and smelly. 

I only caught the latter half of the reply, the "off" bit. Gorgeious woodie did as bid and beat a hasty retreat along lime kiln dyke. I was tempted to follow but the sun was gone from the sky, we had at best half an hour of anything which could be passed off as daylight, and we were a hireboat. I couldn't switch the lights on and make for Stalham or Ludham. After another fifteen minutes mum persuaded me to move, and so we did. Gay's was full, As was Barton Turf. We were turning by Cox's to head back to the broad for a night on the mudweight, something mother hated when master of said gorgeous woodie hailed me from Pennygate and asked if we needed to moor. The obviously reply of yes followed, but we would swing in the open water if need be. We were invited alongside, and spent the night there. We sat on deck sharing our Neuf du Pape and their Grand Crus until well after bedtime.  A very convivial evening with new friends. 

Sadly, I think the days when gestures like this happen are now consigned to history. 

[CambridgeCabby]

Thankfully there are still such people afloat , we have encountered quite a few this year .

Unfortunately people tend to only post when they have encountered di*****ds as opposed to one of the many friendly , helpful individuals they come across when afloat .

[Davydine]

9 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

Firstly let me say I don't mean to offend anyone but I do take exception to being told what I should do, especially when I have taken steps to make my own position secure.

Fred, I have re read your post and I suspect that it was the attitude of the BA you were calling in to question, rather than the attitude of boaters wishing to moor alongside, in which case I apologise.

Personally, i am so used to rafting that it just seems a pragmatic way for the BA to maximise space at popular moorings, but I admit, I am not that close to the workings of the BA and I understand that they are not always popular with those who have to pay tolls. 
 

David

[rightsaidfred]

8 hours ago, Davydine said:

Fred, I have re read your post and I suspect that it was the attitude of the BA you were calling in to question, rather than the attitude of boaters wishing to moor alongside, in which case I apologise.

Personally, i am so used to rafting that it just seems a pragmatic way for the BA to maximise space at popular moorings, but I admit, I am not that close to the workings of the BA and I understand that they are not always popular with those who have to pay tolls. 
 

David

David

Thank you for the apology but it is not needed, I try not to give offence likewise I do not take it, I just accept that in a debate people trying to express an opinion sometimes get things a little wrong, as I said I don`t have a problem with the principal of double mooring and have and possibly will continue to allow it at my discretion.

As there are new people coming to the Broads all the time who may not be familiar with past issues I will give my take on this in the hope it helps to clarify the problem.

Back in 2012 when this reared its head the BA undertook this policy under pressure from the hire boat federation because as Vaughan correctly said there was a reduction in available moorings with the demise of several hire yards many of whom became private marinas this was compounded by the increase in size by a lot of the new builds on the fleets, this policy was abandoned a year later when it became obvious it could not be legally enforced, sadly this has not only seen an increase in the number of people trying to impose this on others, but an increase in incidences in totally unsuitable places like Irstead, How Hill and Potter Heigham.

Ironically in 2014 the BA decide that one of the moorings that they had designated as suitable ie Hoveton Viaduct should be halved because of underuse, some sort of joined up thinking in play there.

While I understand you have a background of boating at Sea I have  never taken and never will take a boat to Sea so I only have limited knowledge, while I understand yours and others experience on this to me the main difference on the accepted mooring etiquette revolves around two factors, one being the difference in distance between moorings and varying sea conditions, the other being and I stand to be corrected is that all Marinas, Harbours etc are privately owned including any local authority ones for which you pay a fee to use and therefore they are entitled to impose whatever conditions they choose, likewise on the Broads should I moor on privately owned moorings like Stokesby or Salhouse for example I to would expect to pay and agree to the T & Cs including double mooring if applicable.

Fred

 

[Davydine]

Thank you Fred that is very helpful and makes things much clearer.

The boating landscape of the Broads has changed so much with the closure of so many hire yards I can understand the desire to create more free mooring space, but a scan down the list of BA double moorings does make me wonder if their is really that much pressure on the moorings at Berney Arms and Cantley. It's been a while since I have been “down south” but I can't imagine them full very often.

With regards to your comment about moorings on the sea it varies considerably but broadly speaking, most will be either privately owned or run by local authorities, so very much, their mooring, their rules.

we used to sail on the Essex and Suffolk coast and the local rivers such as the Deben, Orwell, Colne and Crouch. You often had a choice of marinas to visit that were relatively close together, but choice of destination was often dictated by the quality of the beer at the local pub and there are some beautiful places to drop anchor for the night and enjoy the peace and quiet.  That said, the old adage of “any port in a storm” applies and I was once very glad to be rafted up in Ramsgate eating chips when the weather in the Channel got too close to my ability levels for my liking.

David.

[JennyMorgan]

Serious question, if any of those opposed to double mooring were unable to find a single mooring would they then bite the bullet and double up or would they just motor off into the sunset?

[Poppy]

I have double moored without asking on more than one occasion. Each time it has been for long enough to lower my mast to pass through a bridge - usually Potter Heigham - and the offended craft has been moored on the YACHT MASTING MOORING !

I shall continue to do so when necessary.

[Ray]

14 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Serious question, if any of those opposed to double mooring were unable to find a single mooring would they then bite the bullet and double up or would they just motor off into the sunset?

I'd motor off into the sunset, there is always somewhere even if plan B and plan C fail there is the mudweight etc.

[vanessan]

14 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Serious question, if any of those opposed to double mooring were unable to find a single mooring would they then bite the bullet and double up or would they just motor off into the sunset?

JM - I’m not sure anyone is actually opposed to double mooring per se, just prefers to avoid it. In an emergency, I doubt anyone on here would refuse either to accommodate or be accommodated! 
 

 

[vanessan]

15 minutes ago, Ray said:

I'd motor off into the sunset, there is always somewhere even if plan B and plan C fail there is the mudweight etc.

Dogs don’t like mudweights! 🥺 (I have often thought it would be a good idea to train a dog to use a cat litter tray but I think I would get some strange looks from my two!! 🐾🐾)

[Ray]

1 minute ago, vanessan said:

Dogs don’t like mudweights! 🥺 (I have often thought it would be a good idea to train a dog to use a cat litter tray but I think I would get some strange looks from my two!! 🐾🐾)

This is true, I guess a small dog could be held over the side lol Danni is not a small dog!!! Wild mooring it is then ☺️

[rightsaidfred]

37 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Serious question, if any of those opposed to double mooring were unable to find a single mooring would they then bite the bullet and double up or would they just motor off into the sunset?

In 40 years I have never failed to find a mooring, Salhouse spit is rarely 20% full Ranworth Island almost always has empty spaces and when I have been South there has always been plenty of open moorings on the rivers.

Fred

[vanessan]

I can only remember one time we had trouble finding a mooring late in the day. We had crossed Breydon towards late afternoon and had intended on mooring at Stokesby to have dinner in the pub. Needles to say, Stokesby was full! It was getting near dusk and Acle was full too. Being on a hire boat we needed to moor up so we perched at the end of Acle Dyke in the days long before it was a marina. Dinner in whatever pub it was in Acle in those days and away at first light next day. That is the one and only time in nearly 40 years of boating that we have failed to find a proper mooring. 
 

[JennyMorgan]

30 minutes ago, vanessan said:

(I have often thought it would be a good idea to train a dog to use a cat litter tray but I think I would get some strange looks from my two!! 🐾🐾)

I thought that most dogs did use litter trays! 

[webntweb]

38 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

In 40 years I have never failed to find a mooring, Salhouse spit is rarely 20% full Ranworth Island almost always has empty spaces and when I have been South there has always been plenty of open moorings on the rivers.

Fred

Up to last year we were based at Brundall for 12 years and had the use of the boat for 4 weeks each year and over that period have spent at least 24 weeks on the south side.

I can only think of a two or three "wild" moorings below Beccles on the Waveney and I wouldn't risk mooring anywhere but official moorings on the Yare with the large tidal range and not knowing what's under the water.

[rightsaidfred]

12 minutes ago, webntweb said:

Up to last year we were based at Brundall for 12 years and had the use of the boat for 4 weeks each year and over that period have spent at least 24 weeks on the south side.

I can only think of a two or three "wild" moorings below Beccles on the Waveney and I wouldn't risk mooring anywhere but official moorings on the Yare with the large tidal range and not knowing what's under the water.

You may have misunderstood me I was refering to BA moorings we dont wild moor as I have said before.

Fred

[trambo]

3 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

Serious question, if any of those opposed to double mooring were unable to find a single mooring would they then bite the bullet and double up or would they just motor off into the sunset?

I would ask permission but after looking at me and the crew and the resultant sling your hook, we would be off into the sunset!