Use Of Electric Posts Exclusively For Charging Electric Boats.

[RealWindmill]

Following on from the recent interesting debate  on the Hardley Cross moorings thread .

Given that the original idea for the installation of electric posts was for the charging of Electric Boats, which has not had much take up to date. When electric boating does finally become the norm, as it surely one day will, then will all other boats have to make way for the new greener generation of boat.

Speaking as the recent new owner of an all electric car (and doing my bit for the planet - actually its the wife's car but she lets me drive it ) I have become aware of the phenomenum known as being ICE'd. For those who may not yet have heard of this it translates as Internal Combustion Engine Blocked where an ICE car parks in and blocks an EV only charging bay , thereby stopping charger use. Particularly prevalent in Shopping Mall carparks.

Will those days arrive on the Broads ? Indeed are they here already here with boats with all the electrickery on board hogging the posts.

How do you foresee future post usage ? and is the idea of encouraging boats to plug in rather than run engines/ generators at all hours the best use ? 

 

[Vaughan]

47 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Indeed are they here already here with boats with all the electrickery on board hogging the posts.

Excuse me but I think that may be where your argument breaks down before it starts.  No-one is hogging the posts.  There simply may not be enough of them, and someone else got there first!

You are comparing this with an electric powered car, which is not the same thing.  There are no shore power points on moorings other than at boatyards, which are powerful enough to re- charge a boat with electric propulsion overnight.

If you will excuse me I am a bit tired and I am off to bed.  In the morning I will write something in a lot more detail, about electric boat propulsion and its charging requirements, which I hope may answer your question.

[MauriceMynah]

Oh boy have you opened a can of worms or what :-)   :-)

Now, I am prepared to listen to arguments about the advantages of the electric car though thus far I'm not convinced. Electric boats on the other hand, no. I know of no argument that stands the litmus tests.

There are two completely different issues regarding the internal combustion engine. Local pollution and ... well for now lets call it Global pollution (greenhouse gasses and all that).

The diesel engine is dirty. it exhausts smuts, particles and other lung killing s***e. The petrol engine however is squeaky clean apart from the ozone .depleting gasses, which it sends out hugely more than the "good ol diesel".

In City centres Diesel smuts are a big problem, out in the open country, far less so. The petrol engine however is dishing out carbon monoxide like it's going out of fashon. Not brilliant in cities but again not a real problem in the open country. Ahhh,but when it gets up in the higher atmosphere... Whoops.

Generating electricity can be done in one of three ways. Burning fossil fuels, setting off atomic reactions or using wind and sunshine. (other methods are available but lets for now just talk of those that are commercially viable.)

Atomic reactors.... we don't have enough of them (yet) and nobody wants one near to them.

Wind and sun... yes, they now contribute a significant percentage, but nowhere near enough and I suspect never will be.

Burning fossil fuels. Yes it's a good system, tried and tested, and would work really well if used sensibly.

 

Surely, the way forwards will be using the right fuel source in the right place. The electric car is the ideal city car but the diesel engine is great for the rural car fuel, and I would add boats in that category .Petrol to fill the gaps between. where quieter engines are beneficial . Small generators for example, and of course motor cycles.

I don't think anyone really worries about outboards hedge trimmers and other small engines. Petrol (ideally 4 stroke is the best solution there.

Our problem  is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Don't get rid of things completely until there is a better solution for whatever. If we can get rid of the worst offenders for better options then do it. Fine, no problem. but don't fall into the trap of believing that one solution is the panacea, it won't be. just use the best for the best and stop fighting from entrenched positions.

The answers are out there, we just need to prioritise them. Surely the human race has enough collective brains to do this. 

[RealWindmill]

1 minute ago, Vaughan said:

  There are no shore power points on moorings other than at boatyards, which are powerful enough to re- charge a boat with electric propulsion overnight.

If you will excuse me I am a bit tired and I am off to bed.  In the morning I will write something in a lot more detail, about electric boat propulsion and its charging requirements, which I hope may answer your question.

So why was the stated intention by the BA at the time of their introduction and installation to be primarily for charging of Electrical propulsion boats ? I haven't got that quote to hand but can surely dig it out if required.

Maybe they were meaning for smaller lighter day boat type vessels  with less power requirements. That still doesnt change my observation that pure EV boats should get priority, but will they ?

Look forward to hearing more of your knowledge.

 

[Cheesey69]

Imagine running out of power against a tide. 
Fossil fuels give way more bang for your buck. 
Hybrid maybe but it’s going to be expensive 
unenforceable. Your creating a two tier system there and if there was only one space left good luck getting me to move

[MauriceMynah]

5 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

So why was the stated intention by the BA at the time of their introduction and installation to be primarily for charging of Electrical propulsion boats ? 

I would say that for no better reason than that it was what people wanted to hear. it was for getting the green credentials established. It was for smarming up to the green brigade.

[RealWindmill]

5 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

Oh boy have you opened a can of worms or what :-)   :-)

Now, I am prepared to listen to arguments about the advantages of the electric car though thus far I'm not convinced. Electric boats on the other hand, no. I know of no argument that stands the litmus tests.

There are two completely different issues regarding the internal combustion engine. Local pollution and ... well for now lets call it Global pollution (greenhouse gasses and all that).

The diesel engine is dirty. it exhausts smuts, particles and other lung killing s***e. The petrol engine however is squeaky clean apart from the ozone .depleting gasses, which it sends out hugely more than the "good ol diesel".

In City centres Diesel smuts are a big problem, out in the open country, far less so. The petrol engine however is dishing out carbon monoxide like it's going out of fashon. Not brilliant in cities but again not a real problem in the open country. Ahhh,but when it gets up in the higher atmosphere... Whoops.

Generating electricity can be done in one of three ways. Burning fossil fuels, setting off atomic reactions or using wind and sunshine. (other methods are available but lets for now just talk of those that are commercially viable.)

Atomic reactors.... we don't have enough of them (yet) and nobody wants one near to them.

Wind and sun... yes, they now contribute a significant percentage, but nowhere near enough and I suspect never will be.

Burning fossil fuels. Yes it's a good system, tried and tested, and would work really well if used sensibly.

 

Surely, the way forwards will be using the right fuel source in the right place. The electric car is the ideal city car but the diesel engine is great for the rural car fuel, and I would add boats in that category .Petrol to fill the gaps between. where quieter engines are beneficial . Small generators for example, and of course motor cycles.

I don't think anyone really worries about outboards hedge trimmers and other small engines. Petrol (ideally 4 stroke is the best solution there.

Our problem  is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Don't get rid of things completely until there is a better solution for whatever. If we can get rid of the worst offenders for better options then do it. Fine, no problem. but don't fall into the trap of believing that one solution is the panacea, it won't be. just use the best for the best and stop fighting from entrenched positions.

The answers are out there, we just need to prioritise them. Surely the human race has enough collective brains to do this. 

Yes MM . I like a lively debate.

My position is far from entrenched but I am seriously concerned for the planets future - just like that young Swede Greta whatshername.

BTW , you need to brush up on your EV car knowledge. Far from being city vehicles they are now outperforming all other modes of propulsion in terms of performance, reliability and off course greenness.

Boats are still a long way behind. Which is why i ask the question is the infrastructure in the Broads with leccy posts the right way to go ?

[RealWindmill]

2 minutes ago, Cheesey69 said:

Imagine running out of power against a tide. 
Fossil fuels give way more bang for your buck. 
Hybrid maybe but it’s going to be expensive 
unenforceable. Your creating a two tier system there and if there was only one space left good luck getting me to move

That is the same argument that is used with EV cars,  they call it range anxiety and is easy solved by ensuring you never run out of power.by recharging - simples !

People on horseback probably said the same thing about them new fangelled car things. 

[MauriceMynah]

8 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

BTW , you need to brush up on your EV car knowledge. Far from being city vehicles they are now outperforming all other modes of propulsion in terms of performance, reliability and off course greenness.

No, I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. The electric car and to a slightly lesser extent the hybrid are perfect for cities. The diesel car is ideal for motorway, long distance driving. Either might be better for rural driving, but that depends on the circumstances of that rural driving. 

What I'm saying is that using the most efficient method is the solution, whichever that method might be. Again, the diesel hybrid may be the solution, yet I've not heard of such an animal. Why might that be?

[RealWindmill]

33 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Excuse me but I think that may be where your argument breaks down before it starts.  No-one is hogging the posts.  There simply may not be enough of them, and someone else got there first!

And stayed there for the whole weekend.

But that's an entirely different topic.

[Cheesey69]

Not at all. You run out of power on the road, you stop. 
boat, you drift. 
 

[Cheesey69]

2 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

No, I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. The electric car and to a slightly lesser extent the hybrid are perfect for cities. The diesel car is ideal for motorway, long distance driving. Either might be better for rural driving, but that depends on the circumstances of that rural driving. 

What I'm saying is that using the most efficient method is the solution, whichever that method might be. Again, the diesel hybrid may be the solution, yet I've not heard of such an animal. Why might that be?

Expense. Lack of power harvesting. Water high voltage mix. Li po batteries prone to explode and space. 
 

[RealWindmill]

1 minute ago, MauriceMynah said:

No, I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. The electric car and to a slightly lesser extent the hybrid are perfect for cities. The diesel car is ideal for motorway, long distance driving. Either might be better for rural driving, but that depends on the circumstances of that rural driving. 

What I'm saying is that using the most efficient method is the solution, whichever that method might be. Again, the diesel hybrid may be the solution, yet I've not heard of such an animal. Why might that be?

Not misunderstanding at all MM.

The EV is even more ideal for motorway and long distance driving than diesels  Modern batteries and rapid charge points make sure of that. And its GREENER>

So why not boats ?

[Cheesey69]

Boats are more related to hgvs than cars. Size and drag. 

[Mouldy]

One aspect of electric propulsion that hasn’t been mentioned are the green credentials of battery production and their recyclability.  We all know they have a limited life and lose efficiency with age and the number of times they are recharged.

The other major concern may be surely our current capacity for electric production, which currently is scarcely more than what we use.  I don’t want a power cut every night so someone somewhere can charge their car.

I don’t think that electric vehicles are the be all and end all of a clean environment and however much Greta Whatshername and the Extinction Rebellion bangs on about it, things are not sufficiently far advanced to change the way we live overnight.

[RealWindmill]

1 minute ago, Cheesey69 said:

Expense. Lack of power harvesting. Water high voltage mix. Li po batteries prone to explode and space. 
 

With respect. Cheesey. I say to you what i said to MM.  Modern EVs are very safe and you are quoting doubts and concerns that were ironed out and resolved several years ago.

[MauriceMynah]

2 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

And its GREENER

well that's one of the arguments that still rage between the two sides, and I am yet to be convinced on by either side..

[RealWindmill]

14 minutes ago, Cheesey69 said:

Not at all. You run out of power on the road, you stop. 
boat, you drift. 
 

So don't run out of power ! Would you let your car or boat run out of petrol/diesel ? of course not.

Sorry Cheesey , i'm not picking on you but it really is that simple.

The original question was will those leccy points be available and useable to ensure EV boats are able to maintain their charge and so not drift.

 

[unclemike]

simple question for RW, i live upstairs in a block of 28 flats, where can I and neighbours charge electric cars?

[rightsaidfred]

So who decides which boat you chuck off a full mooring to make way for a boat that claims to be all electric to moor up. 

Fred

[RS2021]

I don't think the inland marine market is big enough to lead the transition to electric. Equally it will not big enough to sustain diesel propulsion once road transport has abandoned it. If some recharging infrastructure is not in place first then it will be an issue. Putting posts in for 'shore power' helps this. Whilst EVs are still in the minority, there is a very rapid move away from diesels to petrol on the road. Once this happens production if new diesel engines to marinise reduces. Once today's diesel cars are scrapped in say 10 years or so will oil companies still want to produce as much diesel. Costs will rise. What does the marine market do? Revert to petrol as well, or jump to electric? When change finally happens it will be fast, but it will happen

[MauriceMynah]

I've just re-read the title of this thread, and the answer is simple. Hire yards and private boat yards are the place for this. All other 24 hour moorings are not.

[RS2021]

9 minutes ago, chameleon said:

simple question for RW, i live upstairs in a block of 28 flats, where can I and neighbours charge electric cars?

Your self driving car will drop you off and drive itself to a central recharging point

[RealWindmill]

4 minutes ago, chameleon said:

simple question for RW, i live upstairs in a block of 28 flats, where can I and neighbours charge electric cars?

Simple answer  Ch, almost all councils and cities are introducing dedicated charge bays to cover the exact problem you have highlighted.  Many workplaces are also coming onboard with charge points for employees also.

but dont take my word for it - please check out some of the many excellent and up to date articles that are freely accessible for all to use to update their knowledge of the EV world and future planning strategies.

I did my research before taking the leap of faith into EV car ownership.  

[RealWindmill]

3 minutes ago, RS2021 said:

I don't think the inland marine market is big enough to lead the transition to electric. Equally it will not big enough to sustain diesel propulsion once road transport has abandoned it. If some recharging infrastructure is not in place first then it will be an issue. Putting posts in for 'shore power' helps this. Whilst EVs are still in the minority, there is a very rapid move away from diesels to petrol on the road. Once this happens production if new diesel engines to marinise reduces. Once today's diesel cars are scrapped in say 10 years or so will oil companies still want to produce as much diesel. Costs will rise. What does the marine market do? Revert to petrol as well, or jump to electric? When change finally happens it will be fast, but it will happen

RS2021. Absolutely spot on . Wish i'd wrote that.