Use Of Electric Posts Exclusively For Charging Electric Boats.

[Vaughan]

Very interesting reading, but I think I can add a bit, concerning the actual power needed by an electric boat.

As long as 20 years ago I saw a very expensive experiment with electric hire cruisers on the Canal du Midi.  2 brand new 4 berth cruisers were fitted out by Haines in Norfolk for a private hire fleet business near Beziers.  This had the full backing of the canal authority (VNF) who installed special charging points at 4 main locations on the canal, up as far as Castelnaudary.  All done virtually regardless of expense with all the funding that comes with a UNESCO World Heritage Site classification.  Also launched in a cloud of "green" press publicity.  The experiment was a complete failure and only lasted one season, with the boats having to be towed home on several occasions.  The boats were re-fitted with diesel engines and the company ceased trading not all that long afterwards.  The power points are still there and soon became most useful for hotel barges to run their air conditioning! 

So, if you are sitting comfortably, I will tell you what went wrong, as there are several reasons :

For a start, most electric boats are day launches, usually built on the lines of old-fashioned steam launches, being long narrow beam boats gliding through the water and needing very little power.  Pushing the hull of a 6 berth cabin cruiser of 8 Tonnes displacement through the water with enough shaft horsepower to cross Breydon on the tide, is a rather different matter!

The horsepower of diesel engines can also be expressed in kilowatts.  A Nanni 4220 diesel at 2000 RPM is around 30 kilowatts and an electric motor would have to provide the same shaft horsepower to drive the same sort of boat.  So 4 hours cruising a day will use around 120 Kilowatt/hours out of the batteries, which themselves will weigh several Tonnes.

A modern 6 berth hire cruiser with all the goodies, but with gas cooking, is already using between 3.5 to 4 kilowatt/hours at 12 volts on the domestic supply.  And that is without the microwave oven!  This will now also need to be charged by shore power as the boat has no engine.

Without going into detailed figures, this will require a shore power point of at least 75 amps rating and probably 100 amps, to have any hope of putting that charge back in 8 hours overnight.  A realistic full charge would be more like 12 hours.  I believe shore power on moorings is rated at 32 Amps.  That's just twice the power of the socket where you boil your kettle in the kitchen.

No wonder you can't plug 'em into the leccy point in Beccles without blowing all the fuses on the town quay!  By the way, electric boat batteries are charged on DC current, not AC and most boatyard installations will charge their launches with DC direct from the quay.

This backs up what Grendel has just explained, as to why houses have to be fitted with specific power installations to charge electric cars. You can't just run a plug lead out of the kitchen window.

As to rapid charging, like they do in motorway services, I can tell you that the Tesla power points are charging at 210 amps at 410 volts DC for a 100% charge and even more than that for a 10 minute top up.

 

Is this what we want to see on the lawn at Ranworth staithe in future?  Or at How Hill?  I rather doubt they would run it across the marshes to St Benets Abbey!

Finally, there is a very important matter of logistical numbers.  Supposing the BA installed 2 charging points at Ranworth, among other places.  And then suppose that Richardsons (to make it viable) build 5 new electric hire cruisers.  What happens if all five of them independently decide to spend the same night at Ranworth?  Only two of them get charged up.  The others probably get towed home to Stalham on Sunday morning.  Believe me, I have seen it happen.

It is also no good suggesting that the boat should have a generator for emergencies or you are defeating the whole object of the exercise!

 

[grendel]

currently the infrastructure in london is maxed out, we are having to build primary substations (33,000V) places to be able to get energy to supply new developments, the furthest we have had to lay cables to supply these has been about 10km to the nearest available supply point. there isnt any spare capacity for electric vehicle charging.

[RealWindmill]

Well this thread is proving pretty Hot !  there are some interesting views opinions conceptions and misconceptions coming across. Good stuff

it originally spawned from the Hardley Cross moorings thread recently where, with the help of Grendels insight into the costing and provision of the cabling, the consensus of opinion was it would never be doable to provide posts there, and i for one am pleased with that as wilder moorings should remain just that ,wild and unspoilt IMHO.

Still dont quite understand how our forebearers managed to achieve electric pumping stations in remote marshlands though in the early days of lecky. Less restrictions and power needs i guess.

Think of this though when next you are having a peaceful evening at Hardley and the boat ahead is running engines and generators to cook his dinner etc.

 

 This thread has drifted .about a lot into territory of general EV usage and generation. and most posts (again IMHO) have made valid points. 

The one I found quite discouraging is this one

 

10 hours ago, Mouldy said:

Some urgent realisations need to be made here.  There is no quick fix for this and a knee jerk reaction to a given situation rarely works well.  Chucking all our eggs into an electric cure all is not the way forward.  Electric and battery production issues, together with ecologically sound disposal of spent batteries needs to be looked at first otherwise, in years to come, we'll be loading batteries into containers and dumping them into the oceans to get rid of them.

To every action, there is a reaction.

Dont see where any knee jerk is involved. Just  solutions and proven technology being advocated.

As for disposal of batteries and by products, allow me to tell you a little story. I probably shouldnt on an open forum but, hey ho, ive been retired a long time now,

Off the mouth of the Congo River is a  deep ocean  trench, probably about 4000m or so. It very conveniently sits on the border between two countries jurisdiction.

In the oil business there  is a process known, I think , as NDT Testing. This is not my field of expertise and if I say anything about how it works then im probably talking out of my bum - but what i do know is that is is used to test the integrity of pipeline welding, casing welding and the like and it involves X Ray usage and radioactive materials. There is a lot of radioactive waste material as an end result.

Every month they would load up the deck of a supply boat with lots of  barrels of this materials and then we would come along with our highly accurate positioning equipment and navigate out to a suitable position over the trench. Here the barrels would be unceremoniously jettisoned overboard. Now this is isotopes with damaging half life of thousands (millions) of years of toxic pollution contained in metal barrels which will rust open in a very short time frame. Multiply this by all the locations this is occuring in worldwide and you get the scale of the problem.

By comparison the disposal of of used EV batteries is quite benign, even with millions of them. I read from the experts that quite a lot of material can be recycled from them and what can't be can be sealed in large concrete bunkers and virtually forgotten about.  Maybe there is an element of spin to this but to me it makes sense.

So , which is the Greener ?

 

Back to the subject of boats and lecky. Then putting posts in yards where there used to be diesel outlets makes perfect sense. But what of the outcry from the larger craft, both hire and private, if they are not provided with posts  to enable them to enjoy bankside moorings and still have their hotel room and kitchen type luxuries ?Are their expectations too high?

 

Got to go now. Got a Fantasy Football team to sort out before the deadline. Talk to you later MM.

[Vaughan]

13 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Then putting posts in yards where there used to be diesel outlets makes perfect sense. But what of the outcry from the larger craft, both hire and private, if they are not provided with posts  to enable them to enjoy bankside moorings and still have their hotel room and kitchen type luxuries ?Are their expectations too high?

All very good questions, which have been exercising the minds of hire boat operators ever since the last War.

I would also point out that there are nowhere near enough boatyards left on the Broads to provide that sort of overnight infrastructure.

[Mouldy]

9 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Well this thread is proving pretty Hot !  there are some interesting views opinions conceptions and misconceptions coming across. Good stuff

it originally spawned from the Hardley Cross moorings thread recently where, with the help of Grendels insight into the costing and provision of the cabling, the consensus of opinion was it would never be doable to provide posts there, and i for one am pleased with that as wilder moorings should remain just that ,wild and unspoilt IMHO.

Still dont quite understand how our forebearers managed to achieve electric pumping stations in remote marshlands though in the early days of lecky. Less restrictions and power needs i guess.

Think of this though when next you are having a peaceful evening at Hardley and the boat ahead is running engines and generators to cook his dinner etc.

 

 This thread has drifted .about a lot into territory of general EV usage and generation. and most posts (again IMHO) have made valid points. 

The one I found quite discouraging is this one

 

Dont see where any knee jerk is involved. Just  solutions and proven technology being advocated.

As for disposal of batteries and by products, allow me to tell you a little story. I probably shouldnt on an open forum but, hey ho, ive been retired a long time now,

Off the mouth of the Congo River is a  deep ocean  trench, probably about 4000m or so. It very conveniently sits on the border between two countries jurisdiction.

In the oil business there  is a process known, I think , as NDT Testing. This is not my field of expertise and if I say anything about how it works then im probably talking out of my bum - but what i do know is that is is used to test the integrity of pipeline welding, casing welding and the like and it involves X Ray usage and radioactive materials. There is a lot of radioactive waste material as an end result.

Every month they would load up the deck of a supply boat with lots of  barrels of this materials and then we would come along with our highly accurate positioning equipment and navigate out to a suitable position over the trench. Here the barrels would be unceremoniously jettisoned overboard. Now this is isotopes with damaging half life of thousands (millions) of years of toxic pollution contained in metal barrels which will rust open in a very short time frame. Multiply this by all the locations this is occuring in worldwide and you get the scale of the problem.

By comparison the disposal of of used EV batteries is quite benign, even with millions of them. I read from the experts that quite a lot of material can be recycled from them and what can't be can be sealed in large concrete bunkers and virtually forgotten about.  Maybe there is an element of spin to this but to me it makes sense.

So , which is the Greener ?

 

Back to the subject of boats and lecky. Then putting posts in yards where there used to be diesel outlets makes perfect sense. But what of the outcry from the larger craft, both hire and private, if they are not provided with posts  to enable them to enjoy bankside moorings and still have their hotel room and kitchen type luxuries ?Are their expectations too high?

 

Got to go now. Got a Fantasy Football team to sort out before the deadline. Talk to you later MM.

You question ‘knee jerk?’  If that is not the case, why is everyone’s attention on the use of electricity to power everything?  It seems to me that the focus on finding renewable energy sources has been diverted to this ‘quick fix’, designed to draw attention from the real problem.  Call it a sticking plaster if you will, but it is not a cure and looking at the other arguments raised on this thread, one that has no real future.  The fact is our infrastructure is insufficient to carry the power required to fuel a nation of electric vehicles, nor do we have the resources to generate the required electricity supplies.
As for recycling used batteries, extracting hazardous materials can be achieved, but brings another set of environmental issues yet to be resolved.  As I said earlier, chucking them in the sea is the likely outcome, but again will result in another environmental outcry and rightly so.  
You clearly have developed your own opinions, yet despite all of the evidence produced on this thread regarding the flaws, you still believe them to be the right way.  In the same way, I believe my opinion to be more balanced, in that there is no quick fix to an enormous problem, but to throw all of our efforts into chasing an all electric future is only going to cause more issues in years to come.

In truth, as a vote winner, we will probably chose to follow the electric route and try to deal with the resulting issues in our usual disorganised way, but I still don’t think it is the cure.  That said, I won’t be here to see it, either.

[NeilB]

I don't think full electric is viable for marine use at present or in the near future beyond a few niche and limited areas.  We have this being trialed but if it goes into production it will be very small scale, also note the 2 x 7.2Kw gensets. !https://www.volvopenta.com/marineleisure/en-en/news/2019/sep/volvo-penta-and-fountaine-pajot-reveal-electric-sailing-catamara.html

I can also say it will be a tad expensive !

I could be wrong but I cannot think of any modern diesel car engine that is used in Broads cruisers power range, they are derived from small plant use, diggers, tractors etc.  While electric power is also being looked at here it lags behind highway use so the diesel engine will be around for a while yet. 

What will change are the exhaust emissions, they are already becoming very strict for commercial use with IMO tier 3 on commercial engines over 130Kw requiring SCR's exhaust systems.  From Jan 2021 these will also apply to leisure vessels over 24M and it probably won't take long before they start looking at smaller engines.

[JennyMorgan]

1 hour ago, RealWindmill said:

Still dont quite understand how our forebearers managed to achieve electric pumping stations in remote marshlands though in the early days of lecky. Less restrictions and power needs i guess.

Most, if not all the early Broads electric pumping stations were DC and the cables were probably all above ground. 

[annv]

I thought the question was charging electric propelled boats from electric posts! you have to provide a source of power before you provide a boat,  electric posts have a 32 amp socket for electric boats the 16 amp sockets are for general use when a boat is moored for the night, you would expect a boat    to be plugged in for 14 hours at least more than enough time to charge the batteries at 32 amps for perhaps 6 hours cruising,   of cause there are some that want to cruise for longer in which case get a diesel boat , no boat propulsion is perfect but the more we use electric instead of fossil fuel the the better hence the 16 amp points to charge the batteries and heat the water instead of running the engine on tick over for hours and yes you can recharge a electric car from a 13 amp power point there are three modes,  long slow charge,   medium charge from 100 amp supply and three phase from fast charge ie motorway type short stay charging which incidentally shortens the life of the battery bank if used frequently, Not too difficult to reserve 32 amp points for electric powered boats, of cause this would not guarantee a mooring over engined powered boats, but if there were more electric powered boats there would be more likely to end up with all moorings having electric power which would be good for all. John

[grendel]

the trouble is EV charging points are not 32A a standard EV charge post (with 2 outlets) is 32kW or 133A, or 66A per charge point and thats not one of the high power fast chargers, thats for an overnight charge. so at 32A you would be getting half a charge overnight, and need a full day on the 32A point, just to get you back up to full capacity.

[JennyMorgan]

I don't see 100% electric boat propulsion taking over during any of your lifetimes. The reason is simple, no charging points at sea! Maybe on the Broads & the Lakes but I doubt that the coastal bling fleets will be going fully electric any time soon. Hybrid or atomic, perhaps.

[RealWindmill]

3 hours ago, grendel said:

the trouble is EV charging points are not 32A a standard EV charge post (with 2 outlets) is 32kW or 133A, or 66A per charge point and thats not one of the high power fast chargers, thats for an overnight charge. so at 32A you would be getting half a charge overnight, and need a full day on the 32A point, just to get you back up to full capacity.

And this takes the whole discussion almost full circle.

One of the early observations was that the BA stated that they had installed the posts in the first place for the primary purpose of charging electric boats.

So now we are learning that the posts are of insufficient amperage and so probably not suitable for that purpose. Were the BA thinking of a different charging system to that used by road vehicles ?

[Vaughan]

10 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

So now we are learning that the posts are of insufficient amperage and so probably not suitable for that purpose. Were the BA thinking of a different charging system to that used by road vehicles ?

Frankly, who cares after all these years?  Let's look forward.

[rightsaidfred]

12 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

And this takes the whole discussion almost full circle.

One of the early observations was that the BA stated that they had installed the posts in the first place for the primary purpose of charging electric boats.

So now we are learning that the posts are of insufficient amperage and so probably not suitable for that purpose. Were the BA thinking of a different charging system to that used by road vehicles ?

More likely that BA like most official bodies were pandering to pressure groups, going back to the OPs first post if I was in the save the Planet idolgy which I am not the major concern I would have is the current let alone future over population and its consequences of the planet by the human race not what fuels we are using.

Fred

[RealWindmill]

 

9 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Frankly, who cares after all these years?  Let's look forward.

 

The care is if the BA did miscalculate then their whole plan of an electric boating world is dead in the water. so the look forward is ever rising diesel costs due to lack of production and motor boating will be for the elite rich only.

Not in the Broadland spirit at all.

[JennyMorgan]

19 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

So now we are learning that the posts are of insufficient amperage and so probably not suitable for that purpose. Were the BA thinking of a different charging system to that used by road vehicles ?

In truth I really don't suppose anyone back then had a clue as to how requirements would develop. It was a brave stab in the dark that probably hasn't developed as hoped.  

[Vaughan]

2 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Not in the Broadland spirit at all.

Excuse me old chap, but you have just had the benefit of this forum's experience and expertise, in several different technical fields, over the space of two days, in answer to your question.

If we haven't answered it to your satisfaction you may wish to take it from here, to the BA direct?

 

[JennyMorgan]

12 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

The care is if the BA did miscalculate then their whole plan of an electric boating world is dead in the water.

The BA clearly had high hopes that many more than a few boats would have gone electric by now but the reality is that it is electric engines that have been dumped, witness the wherry yachts that have reverted to diesel propulsion. Not convinced that it was a miscalculation, rather more that it was a well intended false hope.

[grendel]

What we have also to consider is that when the Broads Authority installed the posts, by the standards of the time they were sufficient to charge the lead acid batteries that were then the current technology. technology has moved on, now batteries can be charged in a lot shorter time, we have lithium technology, this can be charged much more effectively, but takes significantly more power to do so, thus the technology installed back then (and since) is insufficient to do the job.

That said boat technology lags behind car technology, so as far as i know boats dont yet have the batteries that cars do.

There is an old wooden boat that manages the trip from potter heigham all the way down to Beccles for the wooden boat show, it has all electric drive, and relies upon those charging posts to charge up its standard lead acid batteries every night.

[RealWindmill]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

Excuse me old chap, but you have just had the benefit of this forum's experience and expertise, in several different technical fields, over the space of two days, in answer to your question.

If we haven't answered it to your satisfaction you may wish to take it from here, to the BA direct?

 

I have also had the benefit of several misconceptions and outdated comments from this forum about EVs in general which i have attempted to provide updated info on from my first-hand experience of EV ownership.

So i dont believe the education and benefit has been all oneway at all.

What makes you sure your opinions are the right ones and that i should be satisfied with them ?

i thought the whole point of forum debate is to have open discussion, not force your opinions down others throats  if your views aren't accepted.

[MauriceMynah]

9 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

What makes you sure your opinions are the right ones and that i should be satisfied with them ?

I'm not. Are you of yours? You certainly give the impression that you do.

[Paul]

21 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

The EV is even more ideal for motorway and long distance driving than diesels  Modern batteries and rapid charge points make sure of that. And its GREENER>

What a load of tosh. Has somebody suddenly invented an EV that can notch 600 miles on a charge, or recharge in five minutes and I missed it?

[NeilB]

52 minutes ago, grendel said:

That said boat technology lags behind car technology, so as far as i know boats dont yet have the batteries that cars do.

Torqueedo are using the same batteries that are used in some BMW's, Penta are utilizing truck and bus technology although sea water and 600V makes an interesting combination.  They are also using 300Kw fast chargers.  I believe most of the Broads boats are using old 48V lead-acid systems that have been around for decades.

[MauriceMynah]

Oh, and just a point about outdated information and technology, I took this from a Tesla statement in a review ..

" Tesla is also boldly claiming the Roadster will have a 200-kW-hr battery, 7,376 lb-ft of torque, and an all-electric driving range of 620 miles. A claim that's more difficult to believe, considering Tesla's history of delays, is that the sleek two-door will arrive by 2020. Founders Series models, limited to the first 1,000 customers, are priced at a whopping $250,000. We'll have to wait and see if Tesla can stick to its timeline with the Roadster, but color us excited."

 

My 13 year old swedish tank of a Volvo V70 will do about the same miles from a full tank at 35mpg Mixed urban Rural and motorway. It cost me £3600.

[RealWindmill]

Its part of peoples make-up not to want to be lectured to or have their lifelong held beliefs  questioned. Thats why young Greta Thurnberg took so much stick "whats that young whippersnapper doing telling me how to live in the world" and suchlike comments. Definitely a case of shooting the messenger.

At the start of this thread i wasn't very Green, just a little sympathetic to their cause. Now with every comment coming in I find myself getting greener minute by minute.

All this talk of diesel chugging cars makes me wonder what the NHS statistics might be regarding asthma and other respiratory diseases. Remember how the news reports were reporting how much cleaner the air was in cities and towns during the height of lockdown. They were putting it down to almost no vehicles on the roads for quite some time.

MM. your chugging Volvo may be saving you loads of money but is your consciense really clear when you are stopped at the lights outside a school or an old peoples home where there are people with respiratory problems breathing your pollution. No , you're saving money.

Paul, is your expectation to really drive nonstop 600miles nonstop ? Modern EV manufacturers cars are achieving 250+ miles easily before recharge needed. Some more. And that rapid recharge can be completed over your leisurely lunch break stop at the service area, then jump in for another 250. Doing 600 in an ICE car is easily doable but is not recommended by any of the motoring organisations or safety bodies. Think take-a-break, tiredness kills etc. Also the EV will be super quiet, just tyre noise, so the driving experience is much less stressful. Radio 3 or JazzFM on the radio a much better listening experience. In my book the EV wins hands down.

MaceS. you wont find ICEd examples in your service stations or transit areas where people are passing through. The place it exists is in Multi Stories or Shopping Mall car parks where people are parking up for long periods to shop or go to work, cinema.  It's considered as anti social as parking in the Blue Badge space at your local Tescos.  Also, wheres this elitism dig come from? Because someone has a newer EV or bigger boat they are elitist? Sounds like a piece of inverted snobbery on your part to me. Lets keep it civil please.

And finally (good i hear you cry) Mouldy. Where is all this evidence i'm supposed to have ignored? I can't find any. I see plenty of opiniion and conjecture, noboby has presented any firm evidence and neither have I. All just discussion is what I read.

Meanwhile, back to electric boats and leccy posts - if we haven't already exhausted that.

 

 

 

[RealWindmill]

3 hours ago, grendel said:

 

That said boat technology lags behind car technology, so as far as i know boats dont yet have the batteries that cars do

A few years ago I enquired of a electric motor manufacturer to price up an electric motor drive that clamped onto my existing prop shaft. The quote was an eye watering 20+grand. That coupled with the weight of the battery pack (48v worth of 6v traction batteries ) put me off the idea. Nowadays that same company can provide an equivalent in Li-Ion sourced from the motor industry at much less weight and maintenance. I didnt even ask the price for that.!

3 hours ago, grendel said:

 

There is an old wooden boat that manages the trip from potter heigham all the way down to Beccles for the wooden boat show, it has all electric drive, and relies upon those charging posts to charge up its standard lead acid batteries every night.

 

See folks, it is doable. !