Jump to content

Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.


Wussername

Recommended Posts

Think we are going round  in circles. What has happened in recent months  is dreadful. Each year there are accidents on the broads.This year worse then perhaps  previous years. Sorry, if we go down the route as some are suggesting I think many will avoid Yarmouth  and breydon like the plague.Yes better instruction and advice.Lets not turn parts of the broads into a no go area.In the end all the training in the world will not make boating or any other activitie 100% safe.Yes reduce the risks,but any activity carries risk.

  • Like 10
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Well , you are obviously not aware of how Charter Boat operations work .

You, the hirer, charter the Skipper, he works for you on the boat. You decide your itinary, which pub to stop at et cetera. He works for you on your boat and follows your orders. His role is to impart to you his nautical knowledge and skills so you can have a chilled and relaxing holiday. Nothing more. He is as big or small a part of your crew as you decide.  And learn along the way for your next 'solo' boat hire.

We are talking about different worlds here, no disrespect but you are making me think you are sounding more like Noel Harrison more and more every post.

Fred

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is it with this forum recently that people are not allowed to ask reasonable questions, or express an opinion without being ridiculed.

I have today been accused of being anti hire yard, making accusations of professional incompetence and all because I asked questions, expressed an opinion or joined in a discussion. There are a couple of people lately who will swear the sky is Yellow, just because I have dared to suggest it is Blue. I won't name you, but you know who you are.

You don't have to agree with a persons opinion, but please phrase your replies with dignity and be reasonable.

It's not clever to make references to Fred Carno's Army, Noel Harrison, or La La Land. If you cannot be respectful, then please don't post, or at least think twice before posting.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ian you are right.

All, remember you can make anything idiot proof but a better type of idiot comes along eventually!

What has been suggested is fine BUT how many would have suggested not to swim near the propeller, stationary or not because the blades are sharp and may cause deep cuts?

If you want an example of ultimate safety advice,

This is what I was told, on a H&S controller course-

If you look at the figures the only common link to all deaths is that the deceased inhaled AIR, thus according to safety regulations AIR must be regarded as highly toxic, therefore employees must be safely guarded from it.

That is not really tongue in cheek, you can make as many rules/regulations you like but the superior idiot will always succeed.

Life is a balance between risk and a straight jacket.

The main advice I would like given to all water users is:-

 This boat weighs tons. Do you think your leg can stop it?

Do not step of the boat until it is stopped.

AND 

You are here to enjoy a holiday do not do anything or take any risks, that may make it your last holiday!

paul

 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, RealWindmill said:

That's actually quite an offensive comment - you're right to hide behind that sofa.

Nobody needs start a new yard. The Charter Skipper contract would be between hirer and skipper, no yard involvement needed except to approve the extra person onboard and, again, for one holiday hire only - in the hirers entire life.

 

When I hire a boat the only contract that matters is that between the yard and me as the"Named Person".

If you are now introducing a third party I would be very surprised if the yard would, or could, allow this other than as a named member of the party when booking so I am still held responsible if something goes wrong whilst following the skippers advice, so he's not actually the skipper, as in leader, but experienced crew.

It follows that I am just as free to ignore his advice as I am of the boatyard, having paid extra for the privilege.

It therefore follows further that if I would listen to him then I would listen to the yard in the first place.

Either he is in charge or not, if he is the yard might well have something to say about it, not to mention their insurance company.

Remember, the hire contract is with me.

If the so-called skipper owned the boat, or boats, that is entirely different, hence the need for a yard.

Mouldy has explained the Second Motorboater Law Of Consequences most eloquently - If you dream up an unworkable proposition someone will tell you it is unworkable.

I think YnysMon is trying to explain the Third Law - Those with enough money will go with the best value and those without won't go anywhere.

I'm sorry if you didn't like the reference to La-La land, I was merely trying to stay within TOS.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Chelsea14Ian said:

Think we are going round  in circles. What has happened in recent months  is dreadful. Each year there are accidents on the broads.This year worse then perhaps  previous years. Sorry, if we go down the route as some are suggesting I think many will avoid Yarmouth  and breydon like the plague.Yes better instruction and advice.Lets not turn parts of the broads into a no go area.In the end all the training in the world will not make boating or any other activitie 100% safe.Yes reduce the risks,but any activity carries risk.

Quick question Ian, with no disrespect meant, but would any additional training have prevented your accident?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its something that I think about often.It was a stupid  mistake. My thinking at the time was that the boat on the other side,I thought  was closer  then it was.I raised  my head to get a better view,that's when I connected with the bridge.When we went back I did so from inside the boat.Not easy very poor visibility.That said much safer.So to answer your question .No extra training wouldn't help.A mistake I won't make again.

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, EastCoastIPA said:

What is it with this forum recently that people are not allowed to ask reasonable questions, or express an opinion without being ridiculed.

I have today been accused of being anti hire yard, making accusations of professional incompetence and all because I asked questions, expressed an opinion or joined in a discussion. There are a couple of people lately who will swear the sky is Yellow, just because I have dared to suggest it is Blue. I won't name you, but you know who you are.

You don't have to agree with a persons opinion, but please phrase your replies with dignity and be reasonable.

It's not clever to make references to Fred Carno's Army, Noel Harrison, or La La Land. If you cannot be respectful, then please don't post, or at least think twice before posting.

 

Tell me about it. 

13 minutes ago, Chelsea14Ian said:

Its something that I think about often.It was a stupid  mistake. My thinking at the time was that the boat on the other side,I thought  was closer  then it was.I raised  my head to get a better view,that's when I connected with the bridge.When we went back I did so from inside the boat.Not easy very poor visibility.That said much safer.So to answer your question .No extra training wouldn't help.A mistake I won't make again.

I think the two important questions to ask in your case Ian are a), how many times have you been under Ludham bridge without incident?, which the most likely answer would be "numerous", and b), would any extra training be necessary?, which the answer would very likely be "no". 

 

We're all human beings, not robots or computers, so we have human deficiencies and make simple instantaneous errors of judgement as in did above, no matter how many years of experience we have, which goes on in everyday life. 

I work in the aircraft industry and have done so for nearly 30 years. It's the 2nd highest regulated industry in the world, and you can't even fart without all the official recorded documentation, which also makes it the most expensive industry in the world. Please don't start hinting at over regulatory schemes to make boating, especially hire boating too expensive for all but the wealthy. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, MotorBoater said:

 

When I hire a boat the only contract that matters is that between the yard and me as the"Named Person".

If you are now introducing a third party I would be very surprised if the yard would, or could, allow this other than as a named member of the party when booking so I am still held responsible if something goes wrong whilst following the skippers advice, so he's not actually the skipper, as in leader, but experienced crew.

It follows that I am just as free to ignore his advice as I am of the boatyard, having paid extra for the privilege.

It therefore follows further that if I would listen to him then I would listen to the yard in the first place.

Either he is in charge or not, if he is the yard might well have something to say about it, not to mention their insurance company.

Remember, the hire contract is with me.

If the so-called skipper owned the boat, or boats, that is entirely different, hence the need for a yard.

Mouldy has explained the Second Motorboater Law Of Consequences most eloquently - If you dream up an unworkable proposition someone will tell you it is unworkable.

I think YnysMon is trying to explain the Third Law - Those with enough money will go with the best value and those without won't go anywhere.

I've been reading this thread with a little interest and while I was out this afternoon it seems a few people have picked up the wrong end of the stick and ran away with it.

RealWindmill has a valid point of view; the basis of which is the acceptance of change and a slightly different approach. For starters, nowhere does he suggest chartered skippers should be compulsory but if you have the money, it's a good idea. 

And it doesn't have to be in the form suggested above: Eric the Skipper as I know him, would organise your yachting trip for you. Tell him what you would like to do, he will tell you what is practical then work out the costs. So if you wanted to sail around the islands off the west of Scotland he would charter the yacht locally to where you wanted to go, and he would be the qualified skipper, you just tell him where you want to go and pull on this bit of string when he tells you to.

Similar format may work on the Broads and I suspect once reputations are established, hirers would probably be more than happy to make it work? Today's social media is where the Skipper would make his/her (look at me all PC!) reputation with the customers who may see the positives such as an extra pair of hands and a babysitter.

During my search a couple of years ago I looked at a 40 footer which had a small crew cabin accross the stern accessible via a separate hatch. A Broom I think??

And then there's the more obvious owner/hirer set up where you could charter your own boat and yourself.

While none of the above may not be attractive, and they're not to me, they are however valid ideas. Expensive yes, but some people have a lot of money don't they? There is a lovely thread telling the story of a bunch of guys' time on the Broads just before or just after WW1 (sorry, can't remember exactly but someone will). Didn't they have a skipper? If not, they certainly weren't short of a bob or two.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, floydraser said:

There is a lovely thread telling the story of a bunch of guys' time on the Broads just before or just after WW1 (sorry, can't remember exactly but someone will). Didn't they have a skipper? If not, they certainly weren't short of a bob or two.

 

 

That was a different world, when a working man’s labour was dirt cheap and when even the middle classes could stiil just about afford servants. It would be interesting to know how much the cost of hiring a skipper in those days was in proportion to the cost of hiring the boat.

As Grendel has pointed out, if you want to learn to sail you can hire a skipper. The demand is there, otherwise the service wouldn’t be offered. If there was any demand for being able to pay for extra tuition on a motor cruiser I’m pretty sure that would be available now.

Yes, more expensive boats are being built, but even the cost of hiring during peak season must compare pretty well with taking a whole family abroad during school holidays. 

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So here we are again, in the cold light of another morning after two days of this discussion, and I have to say that, looking back, yesterday was an unpleasant experience for me.  I had not realised that there are members here who, despite our mutual love for Broads boating, have such a deep mis-understanding of the workings of the industry upon which it depends.

I notice Andy seems to have stopped contributing and I don't blame him.  Luckily, I think it is Motorboater who has restored my sanity and I thank him for that.  To ECIPA I would suggest that if he insists on posting in the aggressive way that he sometimes does, then he is surely going to wind people up into an aggressive reply.  I am sorry if he didn't like my reference to Fred Carno's Army but that is what he was trying to make our industry sound like.  To Realwindmill I would say that, for the third thread running, I have given you long, considered, factual and detailed answers to your "genuine questions" based on my own experience in the particular fields you wanted to discuss (such as skippered motor cruisers) but in the end and yet again, you don't seem to have listened to a blasted word of it.

In a long thread 2 days ago, I even opened my heart to the forum, about how I feel so passionately for customer service, in a way that I never have before, but seemingly to no avail.

So today, I'm going to have a better day. Today I am going back into my garage to play trains.

Full many a gem, of purest ray supreme; the darkest depths of ocean bear :

Full many a flower, was born to blush unseen; and waste its sweetness on the desert air.

Gray's elegy.

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know this will look like I'm just shooting RealWindmill down, but there are so many valid points being made that might be lost within the other details being posted. Oh, and yes, I also know that what I'm saying is just my opinion and I'm not in the trade.

The critical points are ...

Money,

Responsibility.

Human nature and

The law.

Money first. A broads boating holiday is far from a cheap option. A professional skipper would be a significant cost to the boat hirer either directly or through the hire fleets. It would put that sort of boating holiday out of reach for many.

Responsibility, Who would be ultimately responsible for the boat and the safety of those on board if an accident happened and a court case ensued. Easy if it was a "Charter hire" but what if the hired skipper was freelance? Remember, even freelance skippers would "get it wrong" from time to time..

Human nature. There would be a high probability that the hired Skipper would be "preaching to the converted". The type of person who would hire and subsequently listen to, the skipper is the sort of person who would be attentive to the hire yards handover staff.

The Law. Ask any scout troop leader about the legal hoops he/she has top jump through to do the job. Ask any boat builder the hoops he/she has to jump through just to get a piece of paper that says he/she can install a gas cooker. A charter skipper would have to do all that. Yes I realise that charter skippers exist and that they will have jumped through those hoops, but how many would be needed on "Turnover Saturday"?

The examples I give are to illustrate that the skipper would not only have to prove that he/she was competent to both handle a boat and to train other people to do so, also that he/she was a fit and proper person to be in close contact with young and/or vulnerable people. 

Any one of the above points can be overcome, but collectively they present a far more effective block on the idea.  

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not advocating charter boat skippers or even Breydon pilots but I maintain that handovers could be more slick & more effective than they are right now. Richardson's skipper's guide looks really good but more could & should be done. Having thought about it perhaps a walk through display with video tutorials running on loops would be an option. Yes, have someone on hand to answer questions but basically make it an interesting add-on to the holiday experience. From the yard's perspective it means that the hands on demonstration aboard the boat could be shorter because much of the information will have already been given or that the demonstration could have an apt question and answer mini session based on what has been seen. Food for thought?

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It’s a shame that at times through this thread there have been posts that started to turn personal. The topic has clearly stirred emotions and we have members who are passionate about the Broads, their experience in the hireboat industry or whatever personal background they may have. 

Any life lost or irreversibly changed is one too many. And safety should always be reviewed. But let’s not lose sight of how many people every year enjoy their time afloat or just visiting the Broads without incident. 

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 2
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, EastCoastIPA said:

What is it with this forum recently that people are not allowed to ask reasonable questions, or express an opinion without being ridiculed.

I have today been accused of being anti hire yard, making accusations of professional incompetence and all because I asked questions, expressed an opinion or joined in a discussion. There are a couple of people lately who will swear the sky is Yellow, just because I have dared to suggest it is Blue. I won't name you, but you know who you are.

You don't have to agree with a persons opinion, but please phrase your replies with dignity and be reasonable.

It's not clever to make references to Fred Carno's Army, Noel Harrison, or La La Land. If you cannot be respectful, then please don't post, or at least think twice before posting.

 

Normally I would totally agree with you ECIPA and would respect others opinions and be open to persuasion.

However when you have an individual who openly admitted misleading the other members on another thread for whatever reason and then continues in what appears to be the same vein on following threads with little respect for the accumulated knowledge of professionals and others with long established experience it is hard to show them respect.

In relation to this particular thread when you consider that for any prospective new hirer looking in the potential damage to the Broads as a holiday venue and subsequent knock on effect to the hire boat industry which would eventually affect us all it is hard to just sit back and ignore the rhetoric being propounded for whatever perverse reason.

Apologise to the mods if this post contravenes in any way, if so please remove.

Fred 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi, 

Can I just say that some yards have offered skippered charter in the last few years. Herbert Woods had spark of light for day cruises and Brooms had skipper hire I think it was cc £150 a day both lasted about one season. An interesting Idea however if Brooms can't make it work at the premium end of the market then it is unlikely that the demands is there I am afraid. 

Neil

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dare I stick my hand up just to say does anyone remember years ago when the boating brochure arrived on your door mat, sitting round the table with your parents choosing a boat, booking the boat, waiting for the time to come seemed like years and when it did, pack your stuff head off to the yard and start your holiday. In all the years I have been boating with my family we have never once had a major accident nor seen anyone else have one. We had common sense, our own safety drill and it worked too

Reading things that are posted lately you would be forgiven for thinking a Broads boating holiday is and will be a nightmare. Please remember just what a beautiful, relaxing and fun time that can be had on a simple boating holiday with a little bit of common sense thrown in. I realise not everyone has common sense and there will be tragedies, that is always going to happen whether it's a boating holiday or an all expenses paid holiday abroad  (my worst nightmare) :default_biggrin:

Take care everyone, stay safe and well x

  • Like 10
  • Thanks 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

To ECIPA I would suggest that if he insists on posting in the aggressive way that he sometimes does, then he is surely going to wind people up into an aggressive reply.  I am sorry if he didn't like my reference to Fred Carno's Army but that is what he was trying to make our industry sound like.

Below is a copy of the third post made by me after a self imposed break from the forum,

So perhaps the answer is to ask people to read the most pertinent information during the handover and get them to sign that they have read and understood it. If they have signed the handover sheet and later need to be rescued from Breydon and don't have a reasonable enough excuse for getting stuck, such as a mechanical breakdown they are expected to contribute £500 towards their rescue costs.

Or perhaps there might be a Breydon recovery waiver fee much like the fouled prop waiver fee. You are given the choice at time of handover to pay £20 to cover you should you need to be recovered from Breydon for any reason. If you don't take out cover you get charged the full amount should you need to be recovered. The waiver fee could then be used to fund EMS to be on standby to recover any boats stranded on the mud.

and this is the response it got.

You think that their signature at the end of a handover doesn't already include a declaration that they have read all the documents, understood the relevant stuff and all that? If so, you've probably very hired a boat or you've never read the forms you've signed. 

I would say that 95% of people asked to sign a sheet at the end of a handover that has a 10pt, two paragraph declaration above it that would take 30 - 60 seconds to read DO NOT READ IT. They just sign, put their name, the time and the date, OFTEN in the wrong places. 

It's easy to sit there and critique this if you've little or no experience of it. 

I was not being critical, assumptions were made about my experience, and I was not trying to make the hire industry look like a bunch of clowns with no idea. However I am a member of this forum and do have a right to form and put forward an opinion and was only putting forward what I thought might be a useful idea, i.e. the notion that perhaps the prospect of a £500 recovery fee might focus the hirer's mind. My mistake in that paragraph was to put the new idea at the end of it, rather than at the start. I realise I was repeating a lot of what is already done by the industry, but the new bit at the end obviously got lost for a few people.  

I realise Vaughan that the above post was not made by you, however you were at one point libelous by stating that I was making accusations of professional incompetence. I didn't and that is the very reason why I reported your post yesterday and it was removed. 

It is for all of us to question, not just those in the industry, whether things could be made safer or improved. Sometimes those too close to a subject cannot see the wood for the trees.

I will repeat for your benefit Vaughan, at no point was I suggesting incompetence by the hire industry, at no point was I being critical of the hire industry, at no point was I suggesting they were a bunch of fools. I was only making what I thought were useful suggestions, asking what I considered to be pertinent questions from the point of view of someone who has 20+ years experience of the Broads originally as a hirer and later as an owner.

I was one of the few who took the time yesterday to watch the 2hr+ live stream of The Broads Authority meeting because I do have a genuine love and interest of the Broads. I won't mention names, but I received a PM yesterday to say that my summing up of parts of that meeting were excellent, that was from another person who actually watched the meeting as well. So far from trying to criticise or belittle the hire industry, I do and did take the time to try and understand some of the issues.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 16/09/2020 at 08:22, Chelsea14Ian said:

Speaking from experience, its not been a very good (short)season so far for some bad accidents.

I wish well for those involved. 

Not surprised having seen how a lot of people are acting this year,jumping off boats into water,dancing on top of boats,kids dangling legs over bow,people speeding , not what we want on the broads. 👎

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, YnysMon said:

That was a different world, when a working man’s labour was dirt cheap and when even the middle classes could stiil just about afford servants. It would be interesting to know how much the cost of hiring a skipper in those days was in proportion to the cost of hiring the boat.

As Grendel has pointed out, if you want to learn to sail you can hire a skipper. The demand is there, otherwise the service wouldn’t be offered. If there was any demand for being able to pay for extra tuition on a motor cruiser I’m pretty sure that would be available now.

Yes, more expensive boats are being built, but even the cost of hiring during peak season must compare pretty well with taking a whole family abroad during school holidays. 

It was indeed. In fact, last year was a different World! Masses of people have been enjoying going abroad and staying in hotels for years and years. Something I remember as a kid, was an absolute luxury to be boasted about. I have experience this year of people trying camping for the first time and clearly not enjoying the work involved, taking their frustrations out on campsite owners. Next season it will be interesting to see how things go with all staycations.

I'll take a wild guess that the cost of a servant was probably the equivalent of a full sky/broadband/mobile package.:default_coat::default_biggrin:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, RealWindmill said:

Seems anyone whose opinions don't " run with the herd" and dares to "stick their head over the parapet" is fair game for snipers (keyboard warriors) to be disrespectful up to the limits of TOS,

to be fair, you are hardly acting differently yourselves, a quick look in the mirror and you will find that you are doing exactly the same towards these people, who are giving their advice of long years in the industry, and know what does and doesnt work, by ignoring them and disrespecting their experience also up to the limits of TOS, and then crying foul to the moderators when you are given some of your own treatment back. your comment highlighted above could be considered an inflammatory post as you are basically accusing everyone else (other than yourselves) of being closed minded.

 i will ask once more with my moderator hat firmly positioned that everyone calms down and takes a moment to examine the views of others and responds politely or we will be forced to lock the thread.

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Below is a copy of the third post made by me after a self imposed break from the forum,

So perhaps the answer is to ask people to read the most pertinent information during the handover and get them to sign that they have read and understood it. If they have signed the handover sheet and later need to be rescued from Breydon and don't have a reasonable enough excuse for getting stuck, such as a mechanical breakdown they are expected to contribute £500 towards their rescue costs.

Or perhaps there might be a Breydon recovery waiver fee much like the fouled prop waiver fee. You are given the choice at time of handover to pay £20 to cover you should you need to be recovered from Breydon for any reason. If you don't take out cover you get charged the full amount should you need to be recovered. The waiver fee could then be used to fund EMS to be on standby to recover any boats stranded on the mud.

and this is the response it got.

You think that their signature at the end of a handover doesn't already include a declaration that they have read all the documents, understood the relevant stuff and all that? If so, you've probably very hired a boat or you've never read the forms you've signed. 

I would say that 95% of people asked to sign a sheet at the end of a handover that has a 10pt, two paragraph declaration above it that would take 30 - 60 seconds to read DO NOT READ IT. They just sign, put their name, the time and the date, OFTEN in the wrong places. 

It's easy to sit there and critique this if you've little or no experience of it. 

I was not being critical, assumptions were made about my experience, and I was not trying to make the hire industry look like a bunch of clowns with no idea. However I am a member of this forum and do have a right to form and put forward an opinion and was only putting forward what I thought might be a useful idea, i.e. the notion that perhaps the prospect of a £500 recovery fee might focus the hirer's mind. My mistake in that paragraph was to put the new idea at the end of it, rather than at the start. I realise I was repeating a lot of what is already done by the industry, but the new bit at the end obviously got lost for a few people.  

 

this shows you are out of touch with current hiring procedures, the snippet from Richardsons handbook shows this as they already have all you ask with a £250 charge for recovery for running aground, this doesn't appear to have focused the minds of those still running aground.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

For details of our Guidelines, please take a look at the Terms of Use here.