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Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.


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36 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

In  a few cases I have seen them used instead of, not as an aid to steering. Thing is they tend to overheat with prolonged usage.

The distressed scream of a misused bow thruster is not to be savoured :default_norty:!

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In order to try and explain Andy's (and my own) frustration at such a long-standing conundrum as boat instruction, I would like to tell a couple of little stories : Not long ago, when I was worki

All right then, for the sake of the forum and its readers I will give you serious answers to your hypothesis. For a start, if you can hold your breath underwater for 2 minutes then you are a bett

Dare I stick my hand up just to say does anyone remember years ago when the boating brochure arrived on your door mat, sitting round the table with your parents choosing a boat, booking the boat, wait

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9 minutes ago, Wussername said:

It is interesting to read of the interaction between the master, helm, skipper, pilot.

Communication on a boat is imperative to a safe voyage. On a racing sailing cruiser expect to be shouted at, sworn at, encouraged, humiliated if things go wrong.

On a hire boat it is not so extreme. But you must pay attention to your designated helm.

It is his responsibility to communicate.

Prepare the mooring lines.

Tell the crew why you are turning the boat into the flow of the river

When you intend to mananouver the boat.

Secure the bow rope first and then the stern

When to get off, when it is safe to get off.

Do not jump.

In brief the helm, the skipper must be aware of his responsibilities and be able to communicate with his crew. And the crew must be prepared to listen and conform.

The above is a brief summary of his obligations but not all.

Such an understanding may contribute in some way towards a discussion towards our commitment to identifying and reducing the frequency of incidents.

Old Wussername

Andrew

 

 

All that you say is very true.

Would a first time hirer have the understanding or knowledge to do any of that from the word go.

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What you all forget is that we all started on some form of boat, we all made mistakes but over time we learned from or so we like to think. We all have bad days from time to time, have bad judgement as Ian no doubt will be the first to agree.

Many of us started by hiring and listened to the instructions given with cloth ears.

The Broads and another waterways are for all, lets not forget that.

 

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Alan, I agree with your post which is why I gave it the thumbs up. However we all need to realise that it is changing. Back in August which was a mini heatwave at the time we passed the meadow between Wroxham and Caen Meadow mooring. There was with no exaggeration about 60 people in the water bathing, swimming, canoeing etc. I went in and out of gear several times and can honestly say that previous to that experience I have seen people swimming there, but could count them on two hands. I was nervous and went as slow as I could. This year has seen perhaps the biggest increase that I know of swimmers, paddle boarders, canoeists, you name it, people are using it in the water.

I go down the river in a gale and look at some boats, and think I'm glad I'm not trying to moor that. That is after 20+ years of boating and 16 years of ownership. I can only imagine what it's like if you are the only male on board, with a wife and several excited kids trying to organise everyone for a mooring, keep the kids entertained and ensure you get moored up safely, whilst trying to perform your third or fourth mooring of a 40ft+ boat in a gale. I know not all moorings are like that, but this is Norfolk where the wind often blows.

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6 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

I can only imagine what it's like if you are the only male on board

That seems a rather sexist observation. I know plenty of women who can handle a boat just as well as any man. There is no reason whatsoever to regard being male as of any significance in boat handling.

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1 minute ago, Speleologist said:

That seems a rather sexist observation. I know plenty of women who can handle a boat just as well as any man. There is no reason whatsoever to regard being male as of any significance in boat handling.

Good point, well made, I should have said only two adults and a number of children. One of which is at the helm and the other is trying to control the excited children.

However I also defer to my earlier point of walking on egg shells on this forum!

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10 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Alan, I agree with your post which is why I gave it the thumbs up. However we all need to realise that it is changing. Back in August which was a mini heatwave at the time we passed the meadow between Wroxham and Caen Meadow mooring. There was with no exaggeration about 60 people in the water bathing, swimming, canoeing etc. I went in and out of gear several times and can honestly say that previous to that experience I have seen people swimming there, but could count them on two hands. I was nervous and went as slow as I could. This year has seen perhaps the biggest increase that I know of swimmers, paddle boarders, canoeists, you name it, people are using it in the water.

I go down the river in a gale and look at some boats, and think I'm glad I'm not trying to moor that. That is after 20+ years of boating and 16 years of ownership. I can only imagine what it's like if you are the only male on board, with a wife and several excited kids trying to organise everyone for a mooring, keep the kids entertained and ensure you get moored up safely, whilst trying to perform your third or fourth mooring of a 40ft+ boat in a gale. I know not all moorings are like that, but this is Norfolk where the wind often blows.

I agree that people swimming is an issue that we all hate to see in vast numbers, one of the problems that I can't get my head around is the the Broads Authority condemn swimming in general but endorsed wild swimming a few seasons ago without stopping the passage of boats during the event. Boats and people in the water is a recipe for disaster as the last few weeks have shown us.

 

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2 minutes ago, EastCoastIPA said:

Good point, well made, I should have said only two adults and a number of children. One of which is at the helm and the other is trying to control the excited children.

However I also defer to my earlier point of walking on egg shells on this forum!

And rapidly and appropriately responded! Thank you.

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1 hour ago, ranworthbreeze said:

What you all forget is that we all started on some form of boat, we all made mistakes but over time we learned from or so we like to think. We all have bad days from time to time, have bad judgement as Ian no doubt will be the first to agree.

Many of us started by hiring and listened to the instructions given with cloth ears.

The Broads and another waterways are for all, lets not forget that.

 

Agreed RB, and also agree us older hands all mess up on occasion, sometimes embarassingly so.

We want to encourage these first timers to come and enjoy and learn from their early adventures.

I just think that that most of these first timers would appreciate learning more quickly and not get put off by a bad early experience and that should result in plenty of return hirers year on year.  That would please the hire yards and their finances.

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19 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Agreed RB, and also agree us older hands all mess up on occasion, sometimes embarassingly so.

We want to encourage these first timers to come and enjoy and learn from their early adventures.

I just think that that most of these first timers would appreciate learning more quickly and not get put off by a bad early experience and that should result in plenty of return hirers year on year.  That would please the hire yards and their finances.

I am guilty as to having an attitude to some who hire and indeed some of those of the private sector. We should and must show tolerance and consideration. In turn this attitude must be reciprocated. As a forum we must demonstrate our acceptance of this ideal.

Old Wussername

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1 hour ago, EastCoastIPA said:

I can only imagine what it's like if you are the only male on board,

With four daughters, a wife and a mother-in-law onboard I have to say that it's a magical experience!  

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3 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

Good thread, innit - bet you didn't expect this to run like this when you started it Mr Wussername.

 

One question springs to mind which I think might be interesting exploring ( groan - here we go again ).

All vessels in the world including Merchant ships, Military ships, large pleasure yachts and so on have onboard an experienced Master Mariner in sole command of all aspects of it's life and role at sea. When this ship arrives to enter any foreign port or to negotiate any navigationally tricky waterway it is normal for the Master to take onboard a recognised local pilot. in most places this is normally compulsory. The reason is obvious - the Pilot who is often an extremely experienced Master Mariner himself has first hand knowledge of the waters and nav requirements, buoyage arrangements etc of his local patch.

Now our Master ( in command of all he surveys, one step below God and all that ) is still in sole command of his vessel. The Pilot is only there in an advisory capacity and our Master can override him at any time, but woe betide the Master if he didn't follow the Pilot's advice.  In the event of an incident such as collision or grounding the investigating board (MIB) would be down on the Master like a ton of bricks, and he probably wouldn't be a Master Mariner for much longer. So the Pilot may be the local expert but not In Command.

Now, and I think you can see where this is going, 

The Broads are tidal waters and are subject to the BA's version of the ColRegs and buoyage rules. 

Mister first time Hirer gets on his boat, He is Master of that boat, he is in charge of all his actions and his crew and their safety. trouble is he's never been on a boat before, doesn't realise it steers from the back end, doesn't realise it won't respond to the wheel when going backwards, hasn't got a clue about tides or propwalk or springing off a windward quayside. You can tell him that info at h/o or on a video which he may or may not absorb.

Now put a Charter Skipper ( lets call him a Pilot ) onboard for a few days or the whole duration of his hire and suddenly there is one competent and happy and, most importantly, safe new recruit to the boating world. Safer for all the rest of us too and our boats, and for the Rescue services.

He is still Master of his hireboat, the Pilot is still only advisory. Mister hirer can still override him at any time just as our Sea Captain . Mr Hirer is still in control of all aspects of his holiday.

Is that not a win - win situation. ? or have I not thought it through enough .

So I refer back to my earlier post.  What would the cost be to Mr Hirer for the services of the Pilot for a few days?  Where would the Pilot sleep, would be eat with said hirers, who would pay for his food?  Add circa £1000 for the cost of the Pilot’s self employed services and it will put a Broads holiday out of reach of many potential hirers, the majority of whom probably wouldn’t want to share their holiday with a total stranger.
In my opinion, you are either too blinkered or unwilling to see the flaws with your idea.  Definitely not a win win situation.

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17 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

What would the cost be to Mr Hirer for the services of the Pilot for a few days?  Where would the Pilot sleep, would be eat with said hirers, who would pay for his food?

I can respond to this from the other side of the fence. I have worked many times as a skipper for skippered charter. The response really breaks down in to two areas:

1: Responsibility - The pilot analogy doesn't hold up. A pilot is working with a highly qualified master. As a charter skipper I would never defer to the charterer over matters of safety/strategy. I am responsible for the boat and they must accept my decisions. Without this there is no prospect that I would do it.

2. Who pays for what? - As a professional skipper I would expect to be paid for all my costs. A daily rate plus travel plus all food etc. (Including when the charterers are eating out). in the offshore sailing world, where boat costs are higher, this is not such a huge additional margin and people will pay it, but I cannot see i working on The Broads.

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5 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

Now put a Charter Skipper ( lets call him a Pilot ) onboard for a few days or the whole duration of his hire and suddenly there is one competent and happy and, most importantly, safe new recruit to the boating world. Safer for all the rest of us too and our boats, and for the Rescue services.

No thanks. You've just increased the cost of hire by several hundred quid, put many hirers off coming at all and put hire operators out of business.

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So let's say your party is six,then you have to pay for a skipper and silly money.Then you must decide to leave one person at home,oh and it will cost you a few extra  hundred  pounds. Don't think so ,instead I will go elsewhere.Would that help a business  that is struggling to make ends meet.

Sorry if my opinion is some of"the rubbish  on this forum " I have been on the broads  since the sixties  when I was a child .Do I have all the answers no,but I care deeply  about  the broads, if my health allows I hope to live out my days in Norfolk or Suffolk. Would I employ a skipper going through  Yarmouth  at a large cost NO .All of which who or what would decide that another person would be allowed in your party?What would be implications regarding insurance?This whole idea is just pie in the sky.

Am I bored with you suggestions yes,they are clearly  unworkable. Am I bored with the broads, hell no I love the broads.Sorry if what I say is rubbish, perhaps you know best.

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9 minutes ago, Chelsea14Ian said:

So let's say your party is six,then you have to pay for a skipper and silly money.Then you must decide to leave one person at home,oh and it will cost you a few extra  hundred  pounds. Don't think so ,instead I will go elsewhere.Would that help a business  that is struggling to make ends meet.

Sorry if my opinion is some of"the rubbish  on this forum " I have been on the broads  since the sixties  when I was a child .Do I have all the answers no,but I care deeply  about  the broads, if my health allows I hope to live out my days in Norfolk or Suffolk. Would I employ a skipper going through  Yarmouth  at a large cost NO .All of which who or what would decide that another person would be allowed in your party?What would be implications regarding insurance?This whole idea is just pie in the sky.

Am I bored with you suggestions yes,they are clearly  unworkable. Am I bored with the broads, hell no I love the broads.Sorry if what I say is rubbish, perhaps you know best.

Jeez Ian, not rubbish at all 

If someone as experienced as your good self can get into difficulties (re bridge at Ludham) then it can happen to anyone Bless your heart x

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2 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Perhaps Ian would appreciate a hard-hat or two as Christmas presents!

 

2 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Perhaps Ian would appreciate a hard-hat or two as Christmas presents!

I would suggest perhaps he should helm from the inside especially when navigating Ludham 

Sorry Ian, couldn't resist :default_icon_kiss:

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7 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

If folk want a skipper then I recommend that they book a week on the Wherry Albion:

https://www.wherryalbion.com/charter/chartering/

A bit spartan old man. I would go for Hathor or White Moth at our age what! what!

Even got a piano on board, for a jolly old sing song.

No creeping down the corridor in the dead of night now!

Night night. Sweet repose. Half the bed and all the clothes.

Now, where did I put my snuff box?

Old Wussername

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So what I have learnt from this thread is that hire companies will do their best for safety on their boats, but can't accommodate for arrogance and stupidity.

Potential boat hirers wont want to take up part of their holiday on some kind of boat piloting awareness coarse because less face it, the speed awareness course for cars would be just as boring for a holiday maker keen to get underway.

Moderators are human like us, they don't always get it right.

And finally, I'm sure the captain and crew who trawl the Bering seas, love to read the the trials and tribulations of those that have trouble crossing the Breydon waters!

 

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Still way too much focus on hirers in my opinion, which is extremely blinkered when the facts show many incidents and sadly deaths in and around the Broads have nothing whatsoever to do with the hirers 

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2 minutes ago, Tempest said:

Still way too much focus on hirers in my opinion, which is extremely blinkered when the facts show many incidents and sadly deaths in and around the Broads have nothing whatsoever to do with the hirers 

Absolutely right, some privateers are a great deal less than capable.

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