Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.

[Meantime]

30 minutes ago, Tempest said:

Still way too much focus on hirers in my opinion, which is extremely blinkered when the facts show many incidents and sadly deaths in and around the Broads have nothing whatsoever to do with the hirers 

Which is why some of the issues being discussed by The Broads Authority apply to both private owners and hirers as well.

However it is an inescapable fact that most novice boaters will have their first experience of boating by hiring a boat first. While there may be a few novice boaters who go straight out and buy a boat, it is a very expensive route to find out that actually boating isn't for you after all.

Some novice boaters will hire and decide it isn't for them and will not return. I was surprised to hear at the meeting that some 40% of hirers are first time hirers, which kind of suggests that a lot of hirers do not return year after year, I wonder why such a high churn rate? 

Some novice boaters will hire many times and become extremely competent boaters and hirers.

Some novice boaters will hire and then move onto buying and may never become competent boaters.

 

[Wussername]

8 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

No problem, nearby bucket and chucket! Or a discrete funnel and a hose into the bilge. 

I was thinking of a somewhat more nefarious activity.

[JennyMorgan]

7 minutes ago, Wussername said:

I was thinking of a somewhat more nefarious activity.

The mind boggles!

[rightsaidfred]

On 25/09/2020 at 13:25, EastCoastIPA said:

I'm not sure, but listening to The Broads Authority meeting this morning and in particular to John Packman speaking it has been recognised that this season in particular there has been a shift in behavior  for whatever reason and a number of areas need to be addressed.

Unfortunately I cannot seem to find a recording of the meeting, it looks like you can only listen in at the time it is live, so the rest is based upon my memory of the meeting. 

Issues to be looked at include;

Better warning signage on the approach to Yarmouth.

Design of hire boats.

Hire boat hand over procedures.

Large single sex parties on boats.

Alcohol on boats.

General increase in aggression from private and hire boaters.

More rangers to ensure smaller craft such as paddle boarders are tolled and given education.

Wearing of lifejackets.

In short the member responsible for the boating safety audit report said that things had improved slightly for the period the report covered, which is the year up to March 2020, but that things had got significantly worse this year and will be reflected in the next report which will cover April 2020 up to March 2021. John stated that for a number of reason the Authority had a very busy year ahead, and that workload will be increased dramatically by looking into the issues raised above.

After going back through the various posts to see how many circles we have gone round in the above is worth a thought in getting things in perspective.

First we need to remember people are on holiday and in a more relaxed state of mind, they do not want to sit in a class room or have a work place induction they just want to get on with their holiday.

Now to look at the issues above.                                                                                                                       Better Signage a definite yes, easy to implement at some justifiable cost. 

Design of hire boats, who is going to decide what is a good or bad design or even a practical or viable one, there is an opportunity to improve some safety aspects of modern designs but not necessarily  possible to retro fit existing ones.

Hand over procedure, obviously worth looking at and improving where possible bearing in mind the high volume in some yards, one thing to look at although I dont know how it could be policed is sending boats out when they only have a limited time before dark.

Large single sex parties, under current discrimination laws not sure how you could make any changes here or even enforce how hire yards choose their customer base.

Alcohol on boats, there is no law against possessing alcohol for your own consumption just being under the influence when in control, even with cars it is not illegal to carry alcohol and I am sure none of us would support making boats dry.

Increase in aggression, not something I have witnessed personally but if there is then that is a police matter and subject to criminal law.

More Rangers, that`s something we would all like to see but given the area covered how many of us would be prepared to pay enough to make this exercise worthwhile, a couple of land based rangers while helpful would have limited impact, if water based then it would probably be more viable to return their duties to just patrol work and employ less expensive "labour" for land based duties.

Wearing of life jackets, to be commended and given additional publicity if possible but how do you make it compulsory when it isn`t a legal requirement and in some cases it could be detrimental.

Having taken all that  into account you still cant legislate for human error or in some cases pure stupidity.

Fred

[MotorBoater]

Looks a pretty cool summary RSF.

Just had a thought while reading it, how about "L" plates ?

Maybe red on white for first trip then green on white for the second. It might help identify those who may need help.

Not sure if it's worth it but I can't yet think of a reason why not. At least it's cheap !

Also not sure if it's enforceable in the way car plates are.

Then again maybe Broads Beat and the Rangers could award an "I" for idiot ? 

[rightsaidfred]

28 minutes ago, MotorBoater said:

Then again maybe Broads Beat and the Rangers could award an "I" for idiot ? 

Designs for a new paddle to be forwarded to Dragonfly house, sorry no prizes for the best usable one. 

Fred

[vanessan]

I wonder if anyone would take any notice of a paddle quoting ‘Lifejacket?’ (I put the question mark on the end to make it appear more of a suggestion than a regulation, which of course it is not - yet!)

[Oddfellow]

On 25/09/2020 at 08:13, RealWindmill said:

Thanks for your info on customer stats, interesting stuff.

As for training costs money. Well, the hire companies are quite happy to take money from the customers and use the Broads as a way to make money. Possibly not too much to ask to put a bit back in and make the Broads safer.

Richardsons and Yarmouth - my suggestion had a Charter Skipper onboard.

(point taken about interaction and Covid though - not easy)

And here we go again, the demonisation of hire companies. Perhaps you should do a little research into what the hire companies do for this area before you go shooting your keyboard off. 

[Maxwellian]

Just read through this lot. Dummies, Prams and Preauthorisation springs to mind. 
 

our Moderators are not biased in any way. They do an excellent job under difficult and frustrating circumstances not helped by a range of different opinions and Egos under pressure.

Please be considerate of other people and their views. There is no need to be aggressive or rude.

[floydraser]

13 hours ago, Broads01 said:

No thanks. You've just increased the cost of hire by several hundred quid, put many hirers off coming at all and put hire operators out of business.

Exactly what I mean about deliberately mis-interpreting to justify hitting the keyboard. What you say would be true if the suggestion was to make it compulsory, which has never been suggested. That's how threads go round and round.

I can't believe some of you retired folks living on/near the Broads wouldn't like to top up their retirement funds by spending a few hours/a day/a week (delete as you like) with a happy family, showing them the ropes. Apart from the financial reward Vaughan has already expressed the satisfaction that can be had by doing a good job. 

Edit: In fact if you love the Broads so much, how about doing for free?

[Gracie]

31 minutes ago, Maxwellian said:

Just read through this lot. Dummies, Prams and Preauthorisation springs to mind. 
 

our Moderators are not biased in any way. They do an excellent job under difficult and frustrating circumstances not helped by a range of different opinions and Egos under pressure.

Please be considerate of other people and their views. There is no need to be aggressive or rude.

Well said 

You pesky mods do a brilliant job, thank you

We are all in difficult times, we should be in this together and stick together x

[JennyMorgan]

49 minutes ago, floydraser said:

I can't believe some of you retired folks living on/near the Broads wouldn't like to top up their retirement funds by spending a few hours/a day/a week (delete as you like) with a happy family, showing them the ropes.

Now, I'll tell you a true story. In my time I have been both an Auxiliary Coastguard, albeit that is not a qualification, and a RYA sailing coach, inshore and coastal, which is. Whatever, it indicates a degree of experience, plus at that time about fifty years of boating experience. Thus, when a local activity centre advertised for volunteer instructors, I  applied, considering myself suitably able and qualified.  I was told that I had to have a level three RYA certificate in order to instruct, despite the fact that as an RYA sailing coach I had issued hundreds of them to others. I offered to sit for a new certificate but was told that I had to do level one first and so on over three years. Effectively a total numpty could graduate through the grades  over three years and teach yet, with all my experience, including with the RYA, I couldn't. I'd even taught teachers how to sail and how to instruct pupils for East Sussex County Council but all to no avail. Experience counts for very little in our world whilst qualification, however shallow, does. I would happily spare some time to help others enjoy the Broads, but I am not qualified. It is a strange, sometimes illogical world that we live in.

[rightsaidfred]

Never a trurer word spoken.

Fred

[Broads01]

1 hour ago, floydraser said:

Exactly what I mean about deliberately mis-interpreting to justify hitting the keyboard.

No misinterpretation at all, I was just trying to comment on the banality of the suggestion. The term "Charter Skipper" conveys a paid for person.

[Speleologist]

1 hour ago, JennyMorgan said:

Now, I'll tell you a true story. In my time I have been both an Auxiliary Coastguard, albeit that is not a qualification, and a RYA sailing coach, inshore and coastal, which is. Whatever, it indicates a degree of experience, plus at that time about fifty years of boating experience. Thus, when a local activity centre advertised for volunteer instructors, I  applied, considering myself suitably able and qualified.  I was told that I had to have a level three RYA certificate in order to instruct, despite the fact that as an RYA sailing coach I had issued hundreds of them to others. I offered to sit for a new certificate but was told that I had to do level one first and so on over three years. Effectively a total numpty could graduate through the grades  over three years and teach yet, with all my experience, including with the RYA, I couldn't. I'd even taught teachers how to sail and how to instruct pupils for East Sussex County Council but all to no avail. Experience counts for very little in our world whilst qualification, however shallow, does. I would happily spare some time to help others enjoy the Broads, but I am not qualified. It is a strange, sometimes illogical world that we live in.

Peter, that sounds like petty mindedness on the part of the organisation. It's certainly not RYA policy. I am an RYA dighy and keelboat instructor, but have none of the dinghy proficiency certificates. None are required. The requirement is for three certificates:

First Aid (very sensible).

Powerboat level 2 (a lot of instructing is done from a powerboat).

Safe and fun (Safeguarding is rightly seen as important).

A dinghy or keelboat certificate is not required. All that is required is a pre instructor course skills assessment.

[Vaughan]

2 hours ago, floydraser said:

Exactly what I mean about deliberately mis-interpreting to justify hitting the keyboard. What you say would be true if the suggestion was to make it compulsory, which has never been suggested. That's how threads go round and round.

Oh, but it has.

I don't know how to quote things off different pages, so have a good read of Realwindmill, on page 8 of this thread.

If you read back to the beginning of the discussion you can also see that it was only after page 8 that the thread was turned into such a contentious argument.

[JennyMorgan]

29 minutes ago, Speleologist said:

Peter, that sounds like petty mindedness on the part of the organisation.

I don't doubt what you are saying but it was an RYA accredited organisation. To be honest I always felt that the fellow who interviewed me didn't want to be upstaged by a mere minion. I never bothered after that which, in hindsight, I do regret. 

[Meantime]

2 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Oh, but it has.

I don't know how to quote things off different pages, so have a good read of Realwindmill, on page 8 of this thread.

If you read back to the beginning of the discussion you can also see that it was only after page 8 that the thread was turned into such a contentious argument.

On any post if you place your cursor at the start of the text you want to quote and then left click the mouse and move it to highlight the text you want to quote and then pause, a box will appear saying quote selection. Select that and the text will appear in your reply much like when you click the quote button at the bottom of a post.

The main difference is that it won't quote the whole post, just the bit you highlighted.

5 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I don't know how to quote things off different pages, so have a good read of Realwindmill, on page 8 of this thread.

The piece above was selected using the method I just described, as opposed to the first quote which was using the button at the bottom of your post.

[WherryNice]

On 24/09/2020 at 14:05, RealWindmill said:

100% agree with you Andy.

Take this logic a step further and think about road users. To be allowed on the roads you have to demonstrate that you have studied the Highway Code and have to be able to more or less quote it chapter and verse before being allowed a license.

Perhaps its about time  a similar system for boat drivers existed.

( put in a smug emoiji here as I already have all the boating tickets ).

 

On 24/09/2020 at 20:04, RealWindmill said:

My point of licensing or training, call it what you will, is that small boating is fun. Just jump on and do it like " swallows and amazons" . No problem.

However the large high tech behemoths that are hired out today need a different skillset and a knowledge of boat handling and water awareness is essential if they are to be driven safely.

All other leisure pursuits in high tech vehicles require training and licensing. You cant just jump into a light aircraft and take to the skies or jump into the sea in scuba gear or drive your car without proving your competence to someone first and get a license.

I learnt to sail on a dinghy sailing holiday in the Greek Islands when a teenager. It was a course but also still a holiday. Next time I went I was competent and licensed to be solo.

In my system, first time skippers on the Broads would have the same. Their first time would be a learning holiday with a ticket at the end, then next time they would be welcome back solo. ( bit like Vaughan did for his NZ ladies - only for the whole holiday or until competence was proved. Think of the jobs for some of you local instructors ).

I think these are probably the posts to which Vaughan refers, I was trying to quote them with another from later in the thread myself but got in a mess.

[Vaughan]

4 minutes ago, Meantime said:

The piece above was selected using the method I just described, as opposed to the first quote which was using the button at the bottom of your post.

Thank you very much.

Who are you, by the way?  Have we been introduced?

[Meantime]

3 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Thank you very much.

Who are you, by the way?  Have we been introduced?

The User formally known as EastCoastIPA. I decided it was time for a change of beverage and brewery, the location of which can be determined from my signature.

[Oddfellow]

On 25/09/2020 at 17:49, Meantime said:

That was far from the view that was being put forward at today's Broads Authority meeting. A view put forward by more than just one member. I sensed an appetite for action. I really wish these meetings were recorded, but you might find the minutes interesting when they are published.

Kneejerk reactions, I suspect. 

[Vaughan]

12 minutes ago, Meantime said:

The User formally known as EastCoastIPA.

And before that?

 

[floydraser]

27 minutes ago, WherryNice said:

 

I think these are probably the posts to which Vaughan refers, I was trying to quote them with another from later in the thread myself but got in a mess.

Ah, both of which refer to compulsory lincensing for the person in charge of the boat, not a any kind of skipper. And only in the context of discussing logic, not a propasal of action. Round and round we go.....

[Meantime]

15 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

And before that?

 

It's been EastCoastIPA since I joined the forum 6th Jan 2018. Not that I really see the relevance. The feature exists within the forum to change your displayed user name up to 3 times in any 30 day period. East Coast IPA doesn't seem to be so prevalent at the moment, especially on The Broads the last two visits. My preferred tipple at the moment is Meantime London Pale Ale, Brewdog Punk IPA and Beavertown Neck Oil.