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Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.


Wussername

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3 hours ago, floydraser said:

Vaughan has already expressed the satisfaction that can be had by doing a good job. 

Edit: In fact if you love the Broads so much, how about doing for free?

In view of all I have tried to explain about boat hiring in this thread, I shall treat that remark with the contempt that it deserves.

Meantime,

Oh, excuse me - a Freudian slip . . 

 

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On 25/09/2020 at 19:18, RealWindmill said:

That's actually quite an offensive comment - you're right to hide behind that sofa.

Nobody needs start a new yard. The Charter Skipper contract would be between hirer and skipper, no yard involvement needed except to approve the extra person onboard and, again, for one holiday hire only - in the hirers entire life.

You propose a "one-time" charter skipper for first-timers that aren't affiliated to the boatyards and that the "ticket" they get lasts their entire life allowing them to hire when they are 20 and then again when they are 55 with nothing in between and only one week's experience some 35 years ago. That person is a newbie. What about ticketing the rest of a larger crew too? Possible in a week with, say 5 people receiving training? That's just about a day per person. Is that enough? No way. And, what about the whole week being spent in calm weather with no rough conditions? How would that help someone who's stuck in a hoolie and a strong current trying to moor at Reedham in October or March (or Yesterday for that matter?) 

There is little doubt that virtually ALL hirers, regardless of "time served" can learn something from an experienced skipper. Indeed, often the guy that's been coming each year for the last decade is the worst.  I could learn something from someone more experienced than me; for instance, I have never been around the coast and, just because I can put pretty much any Broads boat into any slot big enough to take it, I wouldn't dare go out to sea without quite some training and I dare say that a RYE powerboat trainer could show me new things too. For the record, I hold a RYA Powerboat Level 2 certificate, but a trained monkey ought to be able to pass that. 

Others have made the point too that there will not be nearly enough people to offer this "training" and there won't be any boats out there suitable to have a live-in skipper without the boat having a "student digs" feel; they aren't designed for this. 

Like lots of ideas, this sounds good (especially to the one who thought of it) but is beset with hurdles from the start and some are pretty big ones. You could argue (as you have) that it could be workable and if the law were changed to make it compulsory (highly unlikely), we would see the big yards trying to find ways of making it work and smaller yards giving up because the regulation imposes a huge barrier to doing business. You'd also see fewer people wanting to have a "taster" experience and the short break market would plummet. 

I don't know what the answer is but I can't see it being this. What I see currently is a great deal of speculation but observers and a lot of kneejerk platitudes by those who are currently in the spotlight. What I predict is nothing more than an increase in the auditing of boatyard handover procedures and maybe a few guidance notes for handovers. 

For the record, when I started Freedom in the recession of 2007, I had NO EXPERIENCE of hiring a boat in adult life. We researched the handover procedure using the national Hire Boat Handover Code which, it seemed, was not at all compulsory on the Broads. I am not sure that it is now. Our handovers were extremely comprehensive and often adjusted. A 64 point checklist needed to be gone though which was quite compact as some points had many facets to discuss. It was rare for a handover to be finished in under 50 minutes and 90 wasn't that uncommon. We began by taking the Hireboat Handover Code as a baseline and improved on it to meet the needs of our boats, waters and customers as well as reacting to commonly arising problems that needed points being laboured. In more recent times, principally since the introduction of a national hire boat operator licence scheme (administered locally), operators have been audited on their handovers, but not blindly which is a shame. The auditing was always by appointment and that, of course, missed a trick because who isn't on their best behaviour when being watched? I appreciate the difficulties and costs of doing it in any other way, but it does make the system heavily flawed. 

Like all these things, change will cost a great deal of money and right now, there isn't a tourist business or tourism-related local authority in the country that is awash with cash; quite the opposite. All will have to revisit spending and reign in big costs. And, when all said and done, tragic as these incidents have been, their numbers remain VERY low in comparison to the sheer level of visitors the rivers have seen this year. How big a problem is this once you strip it back to the numbers?

 

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On 26/09/2020 at 14:24, Meantime said:

I found this bit in the revised code which makes interesting reading;

Throughout the handover process, the person giving the instruction should take account of any qualifications (for example, RYA qualifications, pre completed competency tests) or previous experience professed by the party leader(s), however this should only be recognised as an opportunity to accelerate the briefing, not dispense with it.

The full proposed code is available here

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0024/342087/Hire-boat-code-draft-version.pdf

Ahem :default_norty:

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19 minutes ago, Bytheriver said:

Nobody yet has mentioned this which was presented to the BA navigation Ctte on the 3rd Sept 2020

It is self explanatory.

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0024/342087/Hire-boat-code-draft-version.pdf

This consultation was launched at the end of last year and we were encouraged to contribute to it. I declined to bother on the basis that when last asked to input on proposals relating to ferry operations on the Broads, my comments were ignored but my predictions played out to such an extent that after one season, many of the changes were U-turned because of the impact. That one mistake took away the Horning Ferry for a number of years. I also foresaw Freedom not continuing much beyond 2020 and felt the proposal would mere frustrate and worry me. Probably the wrong attitude, but nobody can accuse me of dishonesty! 

There are other problems at the BA regarding boating and that is that Linda Ibbotson-Elks is not a practical boating person. She was promoted to take over from the long-serving Steve Birtles when he retired but totally lacks practical boat experience. She has started the role with quite a handicap in my view and this cannot be a good thing and that has generated some problems already.

I haven't read the document in any depth, but the bits I have read are, well, standard stuff. There are probably some variations to working practices, but I have let to see them having skim-read it. The biggest problems seem to always come from authorities who clearly employ more people in business suits rather than boiler suits. The Boat Safety Scheme is one such quango where people with no practical experience of boats look at numbers and reports from others with no practical experience of boats and make dumb-ass decisions that have far-reaching consequences for anyone having to implement stupid, unworkable ideas which, at best, are more designed to shift blame than prevent problems or accidents. 


 

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

There are other problems at the BA regarding boating and that is that Linda Ibbotson-Elks is not a practical boating person. She was promoted to take over from the long-serving Steve Birtles when he retired but totally lacks practical boat experience. She has started the role with quite a handicap in my view and this cannot be a good thing and that has generated some problems already.

A situation that is unlikely to improve either the reputation of the Authority or to raise the level of trust along the riverbank. 

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1 hour ago, Bytheriver said:

Nobody yet has mentioned this which was presented to the BA navigation Ctte on the 3rd Sept 2020

It is self explanatory.

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0024/342087/Hire-boat-code-draft-version.pdf

Thank you for that and I have just read it through carefully.  In the job that I did in France before retirement, as technical director, I had to be very aware and conversant with all the rules and regs applying to boat hiring.  Navigation authority as well as local authority and sometimes different rules for different countries.

So I can tell you seriously, that the proposed hire boat code above would not make any difference whatever to the trial run that I have been giving to hirers for the last 20 years.  Nor would it alter the paperwork and documentation in any way.  Nor would it alter the installation standards, safety equipment or standard of maintenance, on any hire boat that I have operated.  In fact I could suggest there are areas where our own standards are better than those laid down in this document.

I would like to emphasise these paragraphs :

2.1. Shared responsibilities.

The licensing and/or navigation authority, the hire boat operator and the hirer all have responsibilities for safety in hire boating.

2.3. Adequate hirer ability.

(3). Hirers are responsible for taking heed of instruction in the safe use of the craft, given by the hire boat operator and the licensing/navigation authority.

2.7. Hirers are responsible for the consequences of their actions. This should be made clear during the handover.

All the risk assessment stuff in the annexes is the usual guff which has a lot more to do with "risk averse" than "risk aware".  I was once sent a risk assessment form by my wonderful and far distanced employers in America, which included the questions  "Have you advised your staff of the risks of driving company vehicles in snow and ice"  and "Have you lubricated your ski lift?"  When I pointed out that I was running a hire fleet base in the Rhone Delta at the time, I just "got wrong" for it!   Maybe I should just have ticked those boxes as "yes"?

As Marshman has already suggested, this appears to me as just another layer of window dressing.

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Vaughan - I have already been taken to task for suggesting that the BA will make a lot of fuss but at the end of the day, not get much further than shining a few more trousers!! 

Your summing up says it pretty succinctly I guess - I would like to think things might change but to what end? I doubt, sadly, whether they will stop, let alone reduce accidents, at all!

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2 minutes ago, marshman said:

Vaughan - I have already been taken to task for suggesting that the BA will make a lot of fuss but at the end of the day, not get much further than shining a few more trousers!! 

Your summing up says it pretty succinctly I guess - I would like to think things might change but to what end? I doubt, sadly, whether they will stop, let alone reduce accidents, at all!

At least it will demonstrate that we have tried.

We will not have neglected our responsibility. 

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4 hours ago, Vaughan said:

In view of all I have tried to explain about boat hiring in this thread, I shall treat that remark with the contempt that it deserves.

Meantime,

Oh, excuse me - a Freudian slip . . 

 

My apologies Vaughan. The "you" in the last sentence was not directed directly at you. Maybe I should have put: How about any of you who have time on their hands and a devotion to the future well being and success of the Broads as a navigation, volunteer to pass on your experience to first time holiday makers for free. Expenses plus a tip? 

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24 minutes ago, floydraser said:

My apologies Vaughan. The "you" in the last sentence was not directed directly at you. Maybe I should have put: How about any of you who have time on their hands and a devotion to the future well being and success of the Broads as a navigation, volunteer to pass on your experience to first time holiday makers for free. Expenses plus a tip? 

The trial run driver is not a casual contribution to the holiday experience. It is integral to the customers safety and to the companies responsibility to provide value, concern, and a positive statement of commitment.

Expenses plus a tip. 

It was never my objective.

 

 

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Bored with this topic will just mark as read!

The need to blame somebody/organisation is just bread and butter to those that litigate.

"I was not specifically told this was a danger who do I sue?"

The only hope is the people who do not read/listen to instructions are high up for the Darwin awards.

You cannot force intelligence, common sense, a sense of danger and respect for others onto people who will not respect the power of nature, for nature not to cull those who disrespect it. My main worry and fear is for the ones who selflessly try to save them from themselves.

Is there a way on the forum I can just mark a topic as over done and suggest those that are arguing back and forth that they keep personal arguments to themselves.

 The, I said this but meant that and you are wrong argument, does not equate to a reasoned debate about serious subjects that need honest discussion.

I am not trying to curtail freedom of speech, just trying to release the freedom of respect for others and curtail keyboard warriors from shooting from the single finger typing protest.

paul

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Well looks like you've all had a fun day here on this thread. I for one don't see it as boring at all but very interesting and it certainly shows the best and worst of what forum debating is all about.

Have been out all day but notice i'm still the villain of the piece to many  :71_smiling_imp:.

Here's a couple of pics from Somerleyton Moorings at about 9:30 this morning. The water was actually a bit higher at 8 oclock and lapping around the electric posts and the effect I will describe was even more pronounced, but it took that time for my camera to charge up.

There are two or three hire boats and a couple of private ones.

So do any of you old hands notice anything in these pics ( admittedly not immediately obvious from the pics , it was more pronounced to the naked eye.) ?

P1020037.thumb.JPG.e011287d97eb7255aa67103a3ee652fc.JPGP1020035.thumb.JPG.05646fa05d4e75ac6044e9786732c343.JPG

I am referring to how tight the moorings ropes are on all the boats ( bar one - that is the privateer near the electric who had recently adjusted his lines ).

Now of course the water has risen with the flood and lifted the boats for this to happen.

Point 1 - a tight rope is liable to part readily or pull out a deck cleat or loosen mooring post esp in a strong blow.

Point 2 - a bit of slack in the mooring rope would reduce the chance of said cleat failure, post breaking or rope parting.

Point 3 - the boat Skipper should at ALL times be aware of the state of his mooring lines 24hrs a day- esp in inclement weather and adjust as necessary.  It is his duty and responsibility to his boat and crew's safety.

Point 4 - you probably won't get told this or other similar tips at your hireyard h/o due not enough time or information overload, but our first time boater but would certainly get this kind of info and much more from an onboard training Skipper, and in real time too so it would stick in the memory - call it on the job training if you will.

Might prevent an incident happening.

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2 hours ago, Wussername said:

The trial run driver is not a casual contribution to the holiday experience. It is integral to the customers safety and to the companies responsibility to provide value, concern, and a positive statement of commitment.

Expenses plus a tip. 

It was never my objective.

 

 

Quite, but any contribution towards improved safety should be considered, however small, especially if it starts the ball rolling. 

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I found this quote both sad and enlightening.

Quote from Bluesman54 post of Saturday. on Breydon Crossing thread.

 Oh and to end a week of numerous closes calls and one incident of being rammed whilst moored we obviously had to finish our holiday with a bang, so whilst on the fuel dock today at Brooms one of their hire boats still on hire got out of control narrowly missing us but crashing into the key heading, with regret I’ve made the decision that I won’t be returning to the Broads again, there are too many people on them with very little if any knowledge of what they are doing and who are in some circumstances positively dangerous.

I hope he wont mind me quoting him from a post he has made on open forum.

So a potential returning customer lost to the fold. A hit to your profits hire yards.

Quite sad that he had his vacation spoiled. Would a trainer skipper onboard have helped him in these circumstances and seen him through the difficulties he encountered ? My answer is yes.

So offer him a future trip with said training skipper onboard and maybe, just maybe, he have a wholly different and happier experince and become a regular and bring income to swell the hire yards coffers. 

Just saying.

Worth a try ?

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In principle a training skipper might be helpful to some but, apart from cost, I wonder how many people would want to share their holiday with a stranger? 

I appreciate that skippers manuals are onboard but in years to come perhaps, in conjunction with onboard trackers, a continually updating pilot could accompany boats, a live Hamilton's river guide in effect.

As regards to Bluesman it appears that his problem was with the ability of others, e.g. the dodgem syndrome rather than his own ability.

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This discussion has come a long way from the original issue, but that is both inevitable and one of the characteristics of good and open discussion. We have moved from an incident where, as far as I can see, somebody chose to go for a swim near a turning propeller to discussing the merits of on-board professional skippers. As I said earlier in this thread, I am familiar with the role of professional skipper, I also instruct in a variety of different contexts. (I am a Yachtmaster Instructor, Inland Waterways Instructor, Dinghy and Keelboat Instructor, Powerboat Instructor and a few more besides). This is mostly relevant in terms of this discussion in that I know the differences in what is taught. The Inland Waterways syllabus makes no significant reference to tides, yet tides are critical on parts of the Broads. The Yachtmaster scheme looks at tides extensively, but in a far more demanding way than on the Broads. There is no need, as a Broads navigator, to produce a course to steer or plot an estimated position. So the level of skill/knowledge required falls outside the available training schemes. An Inland Waterways helmsman course does not address the issues involved in a passage through Yarmouth, but all the higher level courses major on material that is irrelevant to the Broads.

Whereas I cannot see the professional skipper role working on the Broads, it is the best solution for those who do not wish to progress their skills but wish to remain safe. For those who wish to develop their skills and take responsibility there is the Inland Waterways Helmsman course. It is directly relevant but does not cover everything. However right now it would seen to be the best available option for those who want to learn as part of their holiday.

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46 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

In principle a training skipper might be helpful to some but, apart from cost, I wonder how many people would want to share their holiday with a stranger? 

Some already do, or did, refer to my post somewhere about Eric the Skipper. Well not now, he's retired. :default_rolleyes:

Doesn't have to be the whole holiday; could be anything from an extended handover. A day or two and get dropped off at a railway station? It only needs a little imagination to make it work.

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7 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

I found this quote both sad and enlightening.

Quote from Bluesman54 post of Saturday. on Breydon Crossing thread.

 Oh and to end a week of numerous closes calls and one incident of being rammed whilst moored we obviously had to finish our holiday with a bang, so whilst on the fuel dock today at Brooms one of their hire boats still on hire got out of control narrowly missing us but crashing into the key heading, with regret I’ve made the decision that I won’t be returning to the Broads again, there are too many people on them with very little if any knowledge of what they are doing and who are in some circumstances positively dangerous.

I hope he wont mind me quoting him from a post he has made on open forum.

So a potential returning customer lost to the fold. A hit to your profits hire yards.

Quite sad that he had his vacation spoiled. Would a trainer skipper onboard have helped him in these circumstances and seen him through the difficulties he encountered ? My answer is yes.

So offer him a future trip with said training skipper onboard and maybe, just maybe, he have a wholly different and happier experince and become a regular and bring income to swell the hire yards coffers. 

Just saying.

Worth a try ?

So are we saying that an on board skipper, paid for by the hirer at great expense and who has suffered a holiday with a complete stranger will experience all extremes of weather, such as high tides and strong winds and learnt how to deal with the effects all in a week?

I suspect many experienced skippers will have struggled in the weather conditions that prevailed over the past few days.  No amount of explanation will prepare someone for 50mph winds and how to deal with them, in my very humble opinion.

Unless a trainer skipper is made compulsory, being hit but another novice crew will still happen, even if you have a trainer skipper with you.  In those circumstances, what will a trainer skipper do?

Enforcing compulsory on board skippers will result in the death of the hire industry.  I certainly would not welcome the presence of a total stranger on board my 38ft hire boat, whose presence has increased the cost of my holiday considerably and who spends most of his time on board ogling my two teenage daughters (fictional, but mentioned for purposes of demonstration.)
Your idea that you persist in trying to sell is unworkable on so many levels. Who would be responsible for the craft.  Surely if the skipper is seen as a trainer, he would be in charge of the craft, bringing certain insurance implications?

Once again, despite all of the reasons stated by people whose opinions come from years within the industry, you refuse to back down.  Your arguments are tiresome, just as they were with the ‘electric boats’ thread, where you again refused to absorb information from Forum members whose background is in that field.

Healthy debate is one thing, but this is going too far.  I am bored with your continued inability to listen to expert’s opinions.

This used to be a friendly forum.

I’m off, before I say too much, which I may already have done.

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Please stay.I fully agree with you the idea of a paid skipper is just not workable.For a start the cost would put nearly everyone off boating.Agree there needs to better advice.Who would be prepared to have a stranger on board, skilled or not. Theres implications on insurance etc.Yes Yarmouth, Reedham for example are challenging to say the least. My guess many thousands pass through each season,whatout a problem .Theres no need for this very silly idea. 

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6 hours ago, floydraser said:

Some already do, or did, refer to my post somewhere about Eric the Skipper. Well not now, he's retired. :default_rolleyes:

Doesn't have to be the whole holiday; could be anything from an extended handover. A day or two and get dropped off at a railway station? It only needs a little imagination to make it work.

Let’s do the maths.  I don’t know how many hire craft there are on the Broads, but let’s say that there are 500.  Half of them start on Saturdays and of those, 25% are first time hirers.  That means that you would need 62 ‘skippers’ to stay on board for at least a Saturday night.  There will have been boats going out on a Friday, too, so say 125 craft we’re involved and 25% of them were novice hirers as well, so another 30 plus ‘skippers’, who wouldn’t be available to train on Saturday.  
So far, we’re up to almost 100 ‘skippers’ required for a weekend even if they were only on board for 24 hours, given that the usual handover time is 16:00.

We haven’t considered the question of where they would sleep, incurring extra cost for the hirers, plus the cost of the ‘skippers’.
Finally, how much could a novice hirer learn in 24 hours.  On the Northern rivers, unless you took them to Yarmouth, he/she would not experience the effect of the tide, or how strong it can be.  Depending on the weather, he/she wouldn’t experience strong winds and its effects.

Personally, I used to look forward to receiving my holiday hints handbook from Hoseasons and used to read it through, taking in all of the advice it contained.  Unfortunately, they are no longer deemed necessary, but folk are advised to watch videos prior to the start of their holiday.  The brochures/websites usually describe the boats as ‘easy to handle’ which is clearly not correct, so the hirer thinks it’s like driving a car, which we all know it’s not.  
Perhaps that’s where the fault lies.  Do hirers arrive on their first boating holiday thinking that they don’t need to read or watch anything, because it’s easy.  If they come with a preconceived idea, then it’s maybe not necessary to do anything in preparation.

Despite this, enforcing professional ‘skippers’ for novice hirers, even for 24 hours is still unworkable in my opinion.  There are too many implications to overcome.

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