Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.

[JennyMorgan]

10 hours ago, Cheesey69 said:

Agreed. It’s just I’m seeing more and more dangerous behaviour and actions by all users of the rivers but more so by kayaks and paddle boarders. 

I share Cheesey's concerns regarding the apparent increase in dangerous behavior on the water. For whatever reason the Broads appears to be attracting a new breed of visitor. That many are small craft users is a welcome return in my opinion, however, I do question  the suitability of forty plus footers for novice boaters, especially in our more energetic tidal waters.

11 hours ago, Cheesey69 said:

Although I understand the sentiments in my industry we discuss accidents and deaths as and when they happen in the hope education and discourse could prevent further accidents. 
In light of the high rate of incidents around that area I would expect those with experience to be screaming from the rooftops hoping to prevent further deaths 

MAIB reports are crucial both to the industry and to the Broads however they can be a longtime coming and in the meantime avoidable accidents might be repeated.

Some of you will remember the tragic capsize of hire day boat Breakaway 5. The upsurge of that incident was a MAIB report that has had a huge impact on Broads boating. 

Preempting MAIB reports can be no bad things if just one life is saved.

[OldBerkshireBoy]

14 hours ago, CambridgeCabby said:

May I respectively suggest that any further speculation as to the hows and whys be saved for another time and allow those that knew the fatality to grieve in peace .

With respect, I would doubt if the family and friends from Yorkshire are members CC. That said I agree it is best not to speculate.

[Speleologist]

15 hours ago, Poppy said:

Both ITV local news and BBC Look East arereporting that they are. I'd trust them before the EDP

The definitive source is the MAIB site. No investigation listed there. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/marine-accident-investigation-branch-current-investigations/marine-accident-investigation-branch-current-investigations

[RumPunch]

Took a day or two for the last one to show. I also have an opinion on this one, but will keep quiet out of respect. 

[Cal]

34 minutes ago, Speleologist said:

The definitive source is the MAIB site. No investigation listed there. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/marine-accident-investigation-branch-current-investigations/marine-accident-investigation-branch-current-investigations

I'm surprised just how many fatal boat accidents there are on that list from 2019 and 2020. Certainly not all of them make the headlines.

[CambridgeCabby]

2 hours ago, OldBerkshireBoy said:

With respect, I would doubt if the family and friends from Yorkshire are members CC. That said I agree it is best not to speculate.

Agreed , but a google search will highlight it

[DAVIDH]

5 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

however, I do question  the suitability of forty plus footers for novice boaters, especially in our more energetic tidal waters.

It's well established that this is a staycation year, for many reasons. Most hire boats sold out before the beginning of August, and it's been a case of grab the cancellation if you wanted to get afloat since then. With the latest Government guidance on a maximum of six people being able to stay together on a boat (subject to certain exclusions), many of the larger boats have come back on to the holiday market. It's been noticeable that parties of 2 or 3 people have been grabbing these boats, and there is nothing to stop them doing so in most cases, as they book on-line. As you say, it makes you feel uneasy that a couple of novice boaters can have control of a 40+ foot boat in conditions which will be a test for them. 

[vanessan]

6 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

I share Cheesey's concerns regarding the apparent increase in dangerous behavior on the water. For whatever reason the Broads appears to be attracting a new breed of visitor. That many are small craft users is a welcome return in my opinion, however, I do question  the suitability of forty plus footers for novice boaters, especially in our more energetic tidal waters.

I watched a large hire cruiser enter WRC a couple of days ago. A woman (not young) was standing right at the bow waving her arms about giving the helm directions. The boat had no pulpit rail so there was absolutely nothing for her to grab onto had the helm made a sudden movement and thrown her off balance. She had no LJ on either. I wonder if any hire boat handovers include the guidance of trying to keep one hand on a rail or similar at all times. That’s become one of my ‘commandments’ these days! 

[Cheesey69]

I remember taking my sailing vessel out on the Medway straight after buying her with only The broads experience in my locker. 
The difference was massive and immediate. 
Anywhere you pick on the Broads regarding tide at its worst is just Tuesday on the real stuff. 
The wind moved you around like a chess piece and ships out there where moving cliffs. 
After returning meekly to my swing mooring I booked lessons. 
Apart from the water is always out to get you, I learnt that experience is priceless and you only get that through time and practice. 
And almighty cock ups. 
Exactly what you don’t get on a tightly packed, schedule keeping, children wailing last minute holiday. 

[Oddfellow]

3 hours ago, vanessan said:

I watched a large hire cruiser enter WRC a couple of days ago. A woman (not young) was standing right at the bow waving her arms about giving the helm directions. The boat had no pulpit rail so there was absolutely nothing for her to grab onto had the helm made a sudden movement and thrown her off balance. She had no LJ on either. I wonder if any hire boat handovers include the guidance of trying to keep one hand on a rail or similar at all times. That’s become one of my ‘commandments’ these days! 

It is should not be possible for a hire cruiser to have no hand grab on the forepeak deck as this has been a BSS requirement for a few years now. Hand holds have to be no more than 1.5m apart else the deck area must be marked as "off-limits". In practice, this does not happen. 
 

If there is no pulpit rail, there will be some other hand old available. 

[vanessan]

30 minutes ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

It is should not be possible for a hire cruiser to have no hand grab on the forepeak deck as this has been a BSS requirement for a few years now. Hand holds have to be no more than 1.5m apart else the deck area must be marked as "off-limits". In practice, this does not happen. 
 

If there is no pulpit rail, there will be some other hand old available. 

Thank you for that information Andy, that’s good to know. In this instance it was the lady’s movements that were worrying. Standing waving her arms around as she was, I doubt she would have had time to grab anything had the worst happened. With all the safety measures around now, it still relies on good guidance from the outset and plain old common sense. The latter seems to be sadly lacking in many cases. 

[vanessan]

Ps - Dr Packman said tonight on local BBC news that the BA would be working with hire yards to ensure good safety procedures. Or words to that effect. So everything will be ok now.............

[grendel]

its all down to that age old adage, one hand for yourself and one for the ship.

[JennyMorgan]

47 minutes ago, vanessan said:

Ps - Dr Packman said tonight on local BBC news that the BA would be working with hire yards to ensure good safety procedures. Or words to that effect. So everything will be ok now.............

Should we be worried? I rather suspect that the yards would be best left to get on with the job.

[Wussername]

There is a raft of issues that need to be addressed. Sooner rather than later.

[Wussername]

3 minutes ago, Wussername said:

There is a raft of issues that need to be addressed. Sooner rather than later.

it involves not just the hire industry but private owners as well, canoes, swimmers,paddle boards.

[JennyMorgan]

8 minutes ago, Wussername said:

There is a raft of issues that need to be addressed. Sooner rather than later.

Difficult one as this means a degree of preempting official reports. Witness accounts have reared their heads along the rhond so a head-start could be made, perhaps it has.

 

[ChrisB]

Purely on a personal level, and now being in "The at risk" catagory age wise, with the associated balance and mobility issues, I don't do boats with no "Pulpit" or open transoms.

If you have not got a proper cockpit type well, then at least put an opening " Pushpit" rail across the back. There is absolutely nowt to stop your falling in the drink off the back of many modern cruisers. My own opinion is they are an unsafe design for certain catagories of user.

[RealWindmill]

On 16/09/2020 at 20:54, Cheesey69 said:

Agreed. It’s just I’m seeing more and more dangerous behaviour and actions by all users of the rivers but more so by kayaks and paddle boarders. 
 

 

 

Agree with the sentiment here but feel thats a tad unfair on us paddlers.  As JM send in his response it is good to see more small craft boaters out on the Broads . Back to the roots of Broadland spirit and Swallows and Amazons stuff and all that.

All of the recent incidents have concerned larger cruisers and have been tragic but i dont believe any blame has been aimed at or concerned kayaks.

We are a benign bunch and tend to stick to the margins and backwaters and avoid the busy " shipping lanes".

I dont think many paddlers are seen going under the Yarmouth bridges, for example.

Being close to the water gives a greater boating experience and also gives one a greater sense of vulnerability aand awareness.

The bigger danger, IMHO, are the large sea going vessels with their helm sitting 12foot in the air and quite divorced from  what is happening at water level. Coupled with often large wash they are a more dangerous beast than the paddler.

The influx of novice hirers on large hire boats  this season who are not fully in control of is also a major factor. Not their fault, just the way it has been this year.

 

[vanessan]

10 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

The influx of novice hirers on large hire boats  this season who are not fully in control of is also a major factor. Not their fault, just the way it has been this year

Evidenced by something I read yesterday on fb. A newbie couple wanting to try boating on the Broads but the only boat available to them is Richardson’s Challenger which they appear to have booked. If anyone doesn’t know Challenger, it’s a big boat!!

[Hylander]

13 hours ago, vanessan said:

Thank you for that information Andy, that’s good to know. In this instance it was the lady’s movements that were worrying. Standing waving her arms around as she was, I doubt she would have had time to grab anything had the worst happened. With all the safety measures around now, it still relies on good guidance from the outset and plain old common sense. The latter seems to be sadly lacking in many cases. 

Can I just add my 2 pennuth.     Footwear ,   the times that I have seen men and women wearing flipflops or similar on a boat it is as ridiculous as sporting a pair of high heels (sorry Gracie , time and a place and all that).      A pair of boating shoes (or similar) with good grip on the soles is what is required.   They might not look fashionable but they save your life along with your life jacket and being sensible.    The Norfolk Broads is not Marbella and never will be.

Slight concern this morning with the talk of a 2 week lockddown at half term.   That will scupper a hell of a lot of our holidays now all booked and really being looked forward to.      Let us hope not.    

 

[rightsaidfred]

At the moment as far as I know there is no definitive explanation as to what actually happened so to speculate and make judgements is pointless.

As for the perceived increase in potential dangers I would say that very little has actually changed, over the years I and I am sure most have seen many examples of potential tragedies that have not turned into one out of good fortune, the margin between foolhardy behaviour and actual loss of life is pure luck, the big difference now is social media and the way people use it.

Fred

[JennyMorgan]

Picked up off a relevant facebook group this morning:

Boat Propellers are Dangerous. This year has not been a good one with regards to serious prop related incidents but at least some responsibility must be taken by those that hire vessels to others in ensuring at least a basic level of competency.

The emergency services that turn up these incidents find them highly traumatic also - especially given that they are almost wholly avoidable

[Cheesey69]

Its a bit like the on going war in London with the cyclists.

Some say, there's not much point in getting dressed up in lycra, sweating in the heat only to sit in traffic. Might as well sit in a car.

So they cut corners, jump lights and ride on paths and so on.

Some see themselves as super pedestrians with the same rights as pedestrians only faster.

So the traffic rules don't apply.

I've gone around that corner in Horning going towards the Ant,  straight into the path of a paddle boarder. Maybe keeping to the margins but so am I in order to keep away from a sailer.

Or rafted together in the middle of a river acting like a traffic island.

Or paddling along at night with no lights.

Mark my words. There is going to be a tragic accident one day and I can guarantee you the boater will get the blame.

[grendel]

a bit like the kayaker who we sitting in front of bishops bridge tapping away on his phone with earphones in totally oblivious to water rail trying to hold station 10 foot behind him as i waited for him to move out of the way, even a toot on the horn brought no glimmer of notice, they may have right of way, but when blocking the navigation stationary to play with their phone they are placing themselves in danger, had i been a novice i may not have been able to sit stationary (I wont say a hirer as they are not allowed through the bridge).