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Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.


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7 hours ago, Wussername said:

t is point 4 that I have concern. How can anyone, any trial run driver, or indeed an on board traing skipper of undeniable forsight forsee all eventualities.

Funnily enough I have been thinking about this overnight and I was going to talk a bit about trial runs this morning.

I will start with two absolutely true statements :

1/.     In 40 odd years I don't think I have ever given a run without forgetting to tell them something or another.  And that's with or without a check tick list.  More often than not, I forgot to tell them how to stop the engine!

2/.     I am certain that I have never given the same trial run twice.  All trial runs are different as all customers are different.  It is a personal and hands-on interaction between the instructor and his clients.  This is what a video or a manual can never make up for.

And now as to staff training.

I know some seem to imagine us as local yokels having a good time on the river making money out of innocent tourists but there are a lot of risks around a boatyard and yes, a lot of staff training is involved.  Can you imagine the risks involved in hauling a 12 ton cruiser up a slipway into a shed, using a winch wire running through pulleys at different angles and strains?  Or lifting one out of the water on webbing straps, under a crane and then positioning it on a trailer?  Have you seen what happens when a boat falls off its chocks in a gale in winter?  We know all these risks and we train our staff for them.  Of course we do!

Then there are all the factory regulations (it is a factory) for the woodworking machines, pillar drills, lathes and power tools.  Anyone who touches gas is CORGI qualified.  If you have a table saw or (worse) a planer in your garage, have you had formal professional training in its safe use?  Our staff have.

So training staff to do a trial run is equally important and yes, we do a lot of it actually.  If you have invested over a quarter of a million Pounds in a new boat that you want to last for 20 years, you don't want to see it wrapped round a bridge pier in Reedham just because one of the lads didn't do the trial run properly.  My job involved training staff on 15 different bases in France and I did it by getting all the mechanics on a boat and giving them a trial run, as though they were novice hirers.  They could then ask questions, discuss and make suggestions, since every cruising area is different, so its trial run is also different.  A run on the River Lot, or in Alsace, is a very different thing from the Canal du Midi, or the Charente.

The instructor also needs to be able to tell his own story.  He knows what he has to cover but he must develop his own personal "performance" with a few little jokes thrown in, to keep people's attention!  Reading things off a risk assessment tick list is nowhere near good enough.

During this training we established that a basic trial run to novices on a modern cruiser with all the electrics, takes 45 minutes minimum.  If the hirer doesn't pick up the boat handling part first time, then it can easily take an hour and a half.  So you have to have enough staff to get all the boats out on a busy turnaround day.  My staff were always told that once you are giving a trial run, then it takes as long as it takes, until the customer is happy.  No-one ever got criticised by me for taking too long over it!

Finally on the matter of day boats.  Just imagine if Broads Tours in Wroxham had to spend 40 minutes instructing each one of all those day boats that they let out on a Sunday morning in August.  Some of them for only a couple of hours anyway.

They wouldn't still be in business.

 

 

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In order to try and explain Andy's (and my own) frustration at such a long-standing conundrum as boat instruction, I would like to tell a couple of little stories : Not long ago, when I was worki

Dare I stick my hand up just to say does anyone remember years ago when the boating brochure arrived on your door mat, sitting round the table with your parents choosing a boat, booking the boat, wait

You propose a "one-time" charter skipper for first-timers that aren't affiliated to the boatyards and that the "ticket" they get lasts their entire life allowing them to hire when they are 20 and then

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11 hours ago, floydraser said:

How about any of you who have time on their hands and a devotion to the future well being and success of the Broads as a navigation, volunteer to pass on your experience to first time holiday makers for free.

Just to point out that the personal and public liability insurance involved in that would be totally prohibitive.  It might also require a training licence from the local authority.  After all, boatyards have licences.

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Talking of machinery, I am lucky enough to have come away with all 10 fingers after a career on boatbuilding yards.  A lot of people haven't.  I well remember Billy Grapes, who was foreman boatbuilder at Percivals, back in the 60s.  He had been injured by a bandsaw when he was an apprentice and was always known as "Five Pints".

This was because when he wanted to buy a round of drinks in the New Inn at Horning, he would come up to the bar, hold up the thumb and forefinger of his left hand (which was all he had left) and call "Five pints please, Gilly!"

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1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

Then there are all the factory regulations (it is a factory) for the woodworking machines, pillar drills, lathes and power tools.  Anyone who touches gas is CORGI qualified. 

 

 

Vaughan, may I pick up on one small point without sounding rude and that is that CORGI became Gas Safe here on 1st April 2009. The date is important because they are still regarded as a joke within the trade.

:default_gbxhmm: 

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1 minute ago, OldBerkshireBoy said:

Vaughan, may I pick up on one small point without sounding rude and that is that CORGI became Gas Safe here on 1st April 2009. The date is important because they are still regarded as a joke within the trade.

Thanks, I did realise that but I didn't want to make my post any longer than it already was!

Do you mean that Gas Safe is a joke, or GORGI?

I turned out to be the only CORGI gas fitter looking after more than 400 hire boats in France, as there is no equivalent qualification in French law.  So I got my own documentation together (in two languages) and gave courses on the bases to the mechanics.  Which of course, is against the rules of CORGI but it was a lot better than nothing.  You have to do the best you can!

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1 minute ago, Vaughan said:

Thanks, I did realise that but I didn't want to make my post any longer than it already was!

Do you mean that Gas Safe is a joke, or GORGI?

I turned out to be the only CORGI gas fitter looking after more than 400 hire boats in France, as there is no equivalent qualification in French law.  So I got my own documentation together (in two languages) and gave courses on the bases to the mechanics.  Which of course, is against the rules of CORGI but it was a lot better than nothing.  You have to do the best you can!

Well, CORGI was bad however dispite all the money that they collect from guys & gals having to resit exams every 5yrs Gas Safe are toothless when it comes to cowboys working on gas appliances. Why anyone can walk in off the street and walk out with a gas boiler is beyond me.

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10 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

In principle a training skipper might be helpful to some but, apart from cost, I wonder how many people would want to share their holiday with a stranger? 

I appreciate that skippers manuals are onboard but in years to come perhaps, in conjunction with onboard trackers, a continually updating pilot could accompany boats, a live Hamilton's river guide in effect.

As regards to Bluesman it appears that his problem was with the ability of others, e.g. the dodgem syndrome rather than his own ability.

You're possibly right about Bluesman, certainly a major factor. Perhaps i should have quouted his post in its entirity.

My impression was his whole boating experince was traumatic and unplesaant for him'

Perhaps the agressive and dangerous (his words) other boaters may have benifited from on-the-job training in their time. Help make the Broads safer and happier for all ?

 

holiday with a stranger ? good point, they are asking me to double up on moorings with complete strangers. 

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I wanted to respond to a comment in here regarding missing marker posts on Breydon, but I cannot seem to find it now.

FYI all of the missing markers will be replaced over the coming winter period. All markers missing from Breydon at the moment should have a corresponding channel buoy in place to mark the channel.

Without having time to read through the many pages of this thread, if there are any questions for the Authority please drop me a private message or get in touch via our website and someone will get back to you.

Best,

Tom

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10 hours ago, Speleologist said:

This discussion has come a long way from the original issue, but that is both inevitable and one of the characteristics of good and open discussion. We have moved from an incident where, as far as I can see, somebody chose to go for a swim near a turning propeller to discussing the merits of on-board professional skippers. As I said earlier in this thread, I am familiar with the role of professional skipper, I also instruct in a variety of different contexts. (I am a Yachtmaster Instructor, Inland Waterways Instructor, Dinghy and Keelboat Instructor, Powerboat Instructor and a few more besides). This is mostly relevant in terms of this discussion in that I know the differences in what is taught. The Inland Waterways syllabus makes no significant reference to tides, yet tides are critical on parts of the Broads. The Yachtmaster scheme looks at tides extensively, but in a far more demanding way than on the Broads. There is no need, as a Broads navigator, to produce a course to steer or plot an estimated position. So the level of skill/knowledge required falls outside the available training schemes. An Inland Waterways helmsman course does not address the issues involved in a passage through Yarmouth, but all the higher level courses major on material that is irrelevant to the Broads.

Whereas I cannot see the professional skipper role working on the Broads, it is the best solution for those who do not wish to progress their skills but wish to remain safe. For those who wish to develop their skills and take responsibility there is the Inland Waterways Helmsman course. It is directly relevant but does not cover everything. However right now it would seen to be the best available option for those who want to learn as part of their holiday.

Agree with your post pretty much in it's entirely.

For no reason but for the record, I also hold most of your quoted tickets and a few more from a life on the ocean waves, but not in an Instructional role ( bully me ! ).

Your discription of them highlights a specific gap in one tailored for the Broads unique waterways and the skillset they demand.

So to my point re Broads specific train Skippers. To answer other posters, nobody has actually said this was a compulsory move. just one avenue to explore further to make the Broads safer in the light of this years tragedies.

The BA have appealed for public feedback and input and vigilance ( Dr JP on local news bulletins for one). They are putting their own wheels in motion ref the Agenda quoted from the meeting a few days ago by MeanWhile.

Like it or not the Broads is not in a timewarp but evolving slowly in it's own Norfolk way. The BA have to walk a tightrope between the conservationists, large land owners, the hire business, private boatowners and marinas, safety agencies, et al whilst also pursuing their own internal agendas like BNP and rebranding. Of course they can't please all of the people all the time (impossible). Who knows what legislation may come down from them on high going forwards.

 

( Moot point - BTW Speleo your previous discription of how you operate Charter Skippering operations actually contravenes Maritime Law, unless you actually own the Chartered vessel.  ( insert Runaway emoji )

 

 

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6 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

( Moot point - BTW Speleo your previous discription of how you operate Charter Skippering operations actually contravenes Maritime Law, unless you actually own the Chartered vessel.  ( insert Runaway emoji )

I think you would be right if my contract was with the charterers, but it is always with the charter company which owns and operates the boat.

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42 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Like it or not the Broads is not in a timewarp but evolving slowly in it's own Norfolk way. The BA have to walk a tightrope between the conservationists, large land owners, the hire business, private boatowners and marinas, safety agencies, et al whilst also pursuing their own internal agendas like BNP and rebranding. Of course they can't please all of the people all the time (impossible). Who knows what legislation may come down from them on high going forwards.

I think you will find only Parliament can legislate, BA operates within the framework Parliament laid down in the Broads Act.

Fred

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51 minutes ago, BroadsAuthority said:

I wanted to respond to a comment in here regarding missing marker posts on Breydon, but I cannot seem to find it now.

FYI all of the missing markers will be replaced over the coming winter period. All markers missing from Breydon at the moment should have a corresponding channel buoy in place to mark the channel.

Without having time to read through the many pages of this thread, if there are any questions for the Authority please drop me a private message or get in touch via our website and someone will get back to you.

Best,

Tom

It was this post I think. 

 

On 25/09/2020 at 11:04, Mouldy said:

We crossed Breydon yesterday and I noticed that there are several posts missing  on both sides of the channel.  Given their spacing, three consecutive posts missing does create a significant gap and could lead to some confusion to a novice helm.

IMHO, they should be replaced as a matter of urgency so as to clearly mark the channel and lessen the potential for confusion.

 

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54 minutes ago, BroadsAuthority said:

I wanted to respond to a comment in here regarding missing marker posts on Breydon, but I cannot seem to find it now.

FYI all of the missing markers will be replaced over the coming winter period. All markers missing from Breydon at the moment should have a corresponding channel buoy in place to mark the channel.

Without having time to read through the many pages of this thread, if there are any questions for the Authority please drop me a private message or get in touch via our website and someone will get back to you.

Best,

Tom

Tom.  I mentioned that there were marker posts missing on Breydon .  As far as I could see, only one had been replaced by a green buoy.  One one side of the channel there was some considerable distance between the posts that were still there.

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1 hour ago, RealWindmill said:

holiday with a stranger ? good point, they are asking me to double up on moorings with complete strangers. 

There’s a significant difference between double mooring with a stranger and sharing a boat, potentially with a family including children of varying ages, including sleeping, toilet and shower facilities
Clutching at straws springs to mind.

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17 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

There’s a significant difference between double mooring with a stranger and sharing a boat, potentially with a family including children of varying ages, including sleeping, toilet and shower facilities
Clutching at straws springs to mind.

People walking over your boat at all hours close to accommodation doors or open cockpits.

Be prudent for first timer to learn the ropes before subjecting their family to overcrowding  i.e. hire a bigger boat.

BTW do all your posts directed at me have to end in a dig or were you just born rude. keep hiding behind that keyboard.

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16 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

BTW do all your posts directed at me have to end in a dig or were you just born rude. keep hiding behind that keyboard.

Not rude.  Just asking why you persist in continuing to suggest that your idea makes sense and carrying on trying to find ways to justify it.  There have been several posts from other members with relevant experience detailing why it wouldn’t work, yet you carry on.  The same happened with the electric boats thread. 
By the way, you’re now suggesting that a first time hirer should hire a bigger boat.  Does that not contradict some of the earlier debates about larger and larger hire craft and the additional problems they create?

I could be rude, but enjoy being a member of this community.  Whilst I agree that healthy debate is good , this thread has gone on far too long and most of the controversy is originated by your posts.

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Please be civil when you all post if not then the moderators will have no option but to put some on preauthorisation to ensure that you are!

This is not an option that they take lightly or enjoy, but they will do so if necessary to maintain the forums standards.

it is more than possible to disagree whilst being civil...... we have some excellent examples on the forum :)

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14 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

I found this quote both sad and enlightening.

Quote from Bluesman54 post of Saturday. on Breydon Crossing thread.

 Oh and to end a week of numerous closes calls and one incident of being rammed whilst moored we obviously had to finish our holiday with a bang, so whilst on the fuel dock today at Brooms one of their hire boats still on hire got out of control narrowly missing us but crashing into the key heading, with regret I’ve made the decision that I won’t be returning to the Broads again, there are too many people on them with very little if any knowledge of what they are doing and who are in some circumstances positively dangerous.

I hope he wont mind me quoting him from a post he has made on open forum.

So a potential returning customer lost to the fold. A hit to your profits hire yards.

Quite sad that he had his vacation spoiled. Would a trainer skipper onboard have helped him in these circumstances and seen him through the difficulties he encountered ? My answer is yes.

So offer him a future trip with said training skipper onboard and maybe, just maybe, he have a wholly different and happier experince and become a regular and bring income to swell the hire yards coffers. 

Just saying.

Worth a try ?

I’ve no problem with being quoted but it’s the assumption I am a newbie to boating and the Broads and for that matter the North Sea on numerous diving expeditions, that rankles, I’ve taken both a power boat course and an inland waterways helmsman course (very recently) both RYA courses and hold a VHF SRC radio licence and have been hiring boats on the broads on and off for over 40 years, if my post had been read properly I highlighted the need for due diligence from other boaters and not my according to the RealWindmill need for a “trainer”, the worst incident apart from the ramming on Ranworth Staithe being a Broom hire boat exiting Bridgecraft marina without slowing or look right and left, his excessive speed caused him to end up on the “wrong” side of the river and me to throw the boat into what can only be called an emergency reverse but no matter it was 8.00 am and he obviously didn’t think any boater apart from himself would be on the river so that’s ok in his book no indication of him ever having seen us was forth coming but hey I was in a ‘lowly” bathtub and he in a top of the range large sports cruiser. So I stand by my decision not to return to the Broads which was duly reinforced this morning after viewing the Ludham bridge incident, accidents do happen especially with the conditions late last week which I personally experienced but not stopping to give details of a collision is inexcusable and just part of the mindset of far too many boaters which may be down to the CDW as one poster has already mentioned, I for one have a conscience and do all I can to return my hired boat to the yard as it was at the start of my hire. 

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3 hours ago, Bluesman54 said:

I’ve no problem with being quoted but it’s the assumption I am a newbie to boating and the Broads and for that matter the North Sea on numerous diving expeditions, that rankles, I’ve taken both a power boat course and an inland waterways helmsman course (very recently) both RYA courses and hold a VHF SRC radio licence and have been hiring boats on the broads on and off for over 40 years, if my post had been read properly I highlighted the need for due diligence from other boaters and not my according to the RealWindmill need for a “trainer”, the worst incident apart from the ramming on Ranworth Staithe being a Broom hire boat exiting Bridgecraft marina without slowing or look right and left, his excessive speed caused him to end up on the “wrong” side of the river and me to throw the boat into what can only be called an emergency reverse but no matter it was 8.00 am and he obviously didn’t think any boater apart from himself would be on the river so that’s ok in his book no indication of him ever having seen us was forth coming but hey I was in a ‘lowly” bathtub and he in a top of the range large sports cruiser. So I stand by my decision not to return to the Broads which was duly reinforced this morning after viewing the Ludham bridge incident, accidents do happen especially with the conditions late last week which I personally experienced but not stopping to give details of a collision is inexcusable and just part of the mindset of far too many boaters which may be down to the CDW as one poster has already mentioned, I for one have a conscience and do all I can to return my hired boat to the yard as it was at the start of my hire. 

Thank you for coming back on and updating on the incident and on your  boating history.

For my part I can only humbly apologise for my assumptions about you, you are right I obviously did not fully read your post correctly and so have jumped in feet first with my assumptions.

Total egg on face time.

hope you do see yourself returning to the Broads yet again oneday,

With Regards, Bob

 

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