Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.

[Meantime]

7 minutes ago, CambridgeCabby said:

If a customer has the mind set not to wish to return , it is their choice , whether they blame close calls etc etc or not the simple thing is the Broads wasn’t for them .

There are thousands that return year after year and they have discovered the magic that some of us find here, and will continue to do so 

Whilst I agree with some of that. Bluesman54 took the time to clear up the misconception that he was a novice hirer. In fact he mentioned some 40 years of hire experience. Whether his decision to not return is due to becoming jaded with the experience, or a perception that things have got worse, or just age making him grouchy, or perhaps even that things really have got worse only he knows, but it does ring an alarm bell or two, at least for me, if only because some of it rings true with my recent experiences.

[RealWindmill]

Quote ; Freedom Holidays Post.

And what exactly is my opinion Andy, even I don't know what that is. ?

What I do know is the OP quoted an incident and that kicked off this whole interesting and rambling thread about Safety on the Broads in general and how incidents may be reduced. And that thread appears to have stirred up some deep rooted feelings and, dare I say it , anger in some quarters.

For my part I am an outsider to any financial interest in the Broads but am an interested local boat owner who looked at options of how greater safety might be implemented. Yes I spoke without inside knowledge of hire business but I spoke with a lot of knowledge of how ships, training and procedures are run on a worldwide basis, and so attempted to explore avenues that might be acceptable on Broads waters.

Well, those avenues, one of which being my Broads Trainer Pilot idea has met with a lot of opposition so that has turned out to be a blind alley to explore.

And that quite possibly sums up the whole ethos of the Hire business on the Broads.

You are all probably very nice chaps, you may be born and bred and have a deep love and knowledge of the Broads and can tell entertaining and interesting tales of days gone by which we all enjoy hearing BUT you are also businesses and the purpose of any business is to make money and to make a living. How can that simple fact be called " demonizing" the hire industry as you previously said I said. 

Your yards have also advanced safety no end and provide good service in giving the customer the holiday they desire BUT,  yes, another but, the Broads is not in a timewarp. It is evolving slowly in its own Norfolk way and some of that evolution comes from yourselves in producing greater numbers of higher sided and large boats. this is causing concern for BA Commitee members as voiced by James Knight.

Quote below provided from a post by Meantime about a recent BA Committee meeting

One of the members James Knight at yesterday's Broads Authority meeting made mention of the fact that despite popular belief hire boats hadn't really got that much larger as in longer, there have always been long hire boats around, but that they had got taller leading to the impression of much larger boats. I did think at the time he was making that distinction, that is the part a lot of hirers will struggle with in high winds, the windage on the side and trying to arrive or leave a mooring with that much windage.

J Knights I believe runs a hire business so I trust his viewpoint, as I trust yours.

Witness also events occurring in videos of Ludham Bridge being bandied about on here today.

So please dont take on so. All views from all Broads users and lovers have equal validity and have a right to be voiced and earn equal respect, even if coming from differing knowledge standpoints.

They gravy days are returning thanks to staycation and you may well have customers fighting amongst themselves to get their hands on one of your hires for many a long time yet. Lets hope so.

[Meantime]

33 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

It is evolving slowly in its own Norfolk way and some of that evolution comes from yourselves in producing greater numbers of higher sided and large boats. this is causing concern for BA Commitee members as voiced by James Knight.

Quote below provided from a post by Meantime about a recent BA Committee meeting

One of the members James Knight at yesterday's Broads Authority meeting made mention of the fact that despite popular belief hire boats hadn't really got that much larger as in longer, there have always been long hire boats around, but that they had got taller leading to the impression of much larger boats. I did think at the time he was making that distinction, that is the part a lot of hirers will struggle with in high winds, the windage on the side and trying to arrive or leave a mooring with that much windage.

J Knights I believe runs a hire business so I trust his viewpoint, as I trust yours.

I'm not sure you've read my post correctly or maybe I just phrased it badly. James wasn't so much concerned about the bigger boats, but was defending the bigger boats by stating they hadn't really got any longer. but conceding they had got taller. I also wouldn't put too much stock by what I posted as it was all taken from memory since there is no playback for the meeting. It is as stated to the best of my powers of recall.

[Vaughan]

7 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

And that quite possibly sums up the whole ethos of the Hire business on the Broads.

You are all probably very nice chaps, you may be born and bred and have a deep love and knowledge of the Broads and can tell entertaining and interesting tales of days gone by which we all enjoy hearing BUT you are also businesses and the purpose of any business is to make money and to make a living.

I have taken a great deal of trouble, yet again, in answering your "genuine questions" without, I hope, getting too frustrated in the process.

And yet I end up just getting lectured by you in this manner. Your remark about entertaining and interesting tales is an insult to those of us who take the trouble to share them, as well as an insult to the forum itself.

Your comment that I have quoted is probably worth reporting but I don't wish to bother the moderators with it.

My God, twenty-one pages later, you are never going to give up on this, are you?

[RealWindmill]

Time to lock this thread I think.

As MrMax said , their are too many Egos on here.

When the rudeness and insults flow yow realise that people have run out of ideas and the subject matter  is lost.

[Vaughan]

St Luke 4 : 23. 

King James version.

[Oddfellow]

12 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Time to lock this thread I think.

As MrMax said , their are too many Egos on here.

When the rudeness and insults flow yow realise that people have run out of ideas and the subject matter  is lost.

Given that much of the disagreement has been with your repetition, I feel this rather on the North Side of being a bit rich. Yes, perhaps it is time to lock it as I am struggling to be polite now. 

[Gracie]

Jeez people, give it a rest now. I dread to think what newbies reading this think about joining this forum or hiring a boat for the first time, I think I'd run a mile if it was me

I stand by what I posted on Saturday, the Broads is a wonderful holiday location and with care can be safe, fun and a brilliant experience

Soon be Christmas , then you can all wine ( no, that's whine) about the tat in Lathams    x

 

 

[Chelsea14Ian]

Think we agree at last.This thread is just going round  in circles. Don't think we need  to read anymore .Let's more on.I agree Andy hard to remain  polite. 

[RealWindmill]

9 minutes ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

I am struggling to be polite now. 

 

4 minutes ago, Chelsea14Ian said:

 hard to remain  polite. 

See what I mean. 

Lock it

[JanetAnne]

This thread has produced both some insight into the hire business as well as useful information from a number of contributors.  It'd be a shame to lock it.

[rightsaidfred]

Can we please get some perspective back here, this whole thread has long gone past the point where the damage to newcomers perception of the Broads as a holiday destination could be seriously damaged.

While I have some sympathy with Bluesman 54s decision the behaviour he is referring to and seen in the Ludham Video is not new and while in no way defending it the fact is that it is more to do with a decline in standards and respect for others in all walks of life not just the broads and has little to do with training more just attitude that you cant legislate for.

Back to what prompted the original post, it highlights two recent tragedies, the first one very sadly was a pure accident that resulted in tragic consequences where similar occurrences that have happened in the past have resulted in no more than someone getting wet, I am in no way trying to play down the sad loss of life just that the end result like so many incidents is down to good or bad fortune, I don`t know the full circumstances of what occurred but it would appear to some extent to revolve around the young lady`s position on the stern of the boat.

The second incident wouldn`t appear to be anything related to boat handling itself just someone suffering the sad consequence of somewhat reckless behaviour, something that happens in all walks of life, there is risk and accidents sometimes fatal happening in all activities even in highly regulated professional sports, you can reduce risk in a lot of things you cannot remove it completely, we should remember there are several tragedies every year both on the broads and elsewhere very rarely involving boat handling skills but more to do with people taking silly risks with lack of forethought.

Fred

[Meantime]

10 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

And what exactly is my opinion Andy, even I don't know what that is. ?

I am more than happy to have a robust discussion with anyone to put forward my point of view, opinion, defend myself or to try and enlighten if I have knowledge of a subject, as long as it remains reasoned and doesn't get personal.

The quote above from RealWindmill does rather suggest discussion for the sake of discussion though.

At this point though it is also worth remembering that it takes more than one party to form a discussion and keep it going round and round in circles.

[TheQ]

10 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

Quote ; Freedom Holidays Post.

 

Your yards have also advanced safety no end and provide good service in giving the customer the holiday they desire BUT,  yes, another but, the Broads is not in a timewarp. It is evolving slowly in its own Norfolk way and some of that evolution comes from yourselves in producing greater numbers of higher sided and large boats. this is causing concern for BA Commitee members as voiced by James Knight.

Quote below provided from a post by Meantime about a recent BA Committee meeting

One of the members James Knight at yesterday's Broads Authority meeting made mention of the fact that despite popular belief hire boats hadn't really got that much larger as in longer, there have always been long hire boats around, but that they had got taller leading to the impression of much larger boats. I did think at the time he was making that distinction, that is the part a lot of hirers will struggle with in high winds, the windage on the side and trying to arrive or leave a mooring with that much windage.

J Knights I believe runs a hire business so I trust his viewpoint, as I trust yours.

 

A careful choice of words he used..

The maximum size of boats hasn't increased, the number of maximum size and big boats has increased.

There were always a few big ones, now there are many. They've often got much wider too.. 

Yes boats are taller some yards have deliberately given up any chance of a boat going through Potter or Wroxham Bridges.

[RealWindmill]

Thank goodness. A reasoned comment again and worthy of discussion . Perhaps there's life in this old  and interesting thread yet.

In the oil business where there is at times high risk operations going on. One training mantra is there is no such thing as an accident. All events have a cause and the secret of safe operations is to eliminate as much as humanly possible that cause, normally by training . Their safety record speaks volumes for itself after the industry matured from its original bad image days.

So to the Broads and recent tragedies.

Not pre-empting inquirees nor speculating on any event here but just making a very basic comment on boathandling. If a person finds themselves trapped under the hull of a l

[JanetAnne]

I thought the maximum size of a broads hire boat was 45x12'6 and has been for quite some time. There are no restrictions on height except for the access it denies.

[RealWindmill]

Blast. Sent by mistake while typing.

the qoute was from RSF

21 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

 

 

Back to what prompted the original post, it highlights two recent tragedies, the first one very sadly was a pure accident that resulted in tragic consequences where similar occurrences that have happened in the past have resulted in no more than someone getting wet, I am in no way trying to play down the sad loss of life just that the end result like so many incidents is down to good or bad fortune, I don`t know the full circumstances of what occurred but it would appear to some extent to revolve around the young lady`s position on the stern of the boat.

t.

Fred

to continue

large boat then it is the duty of the helm to get away. In strong winds maybe not easy. But the experienced helm will have a better chance than a novice.

Training. Think on.

[Vaughan]

When the reputation and professionalism of traditional Broads businesses is repeatedly impugned, on a Broads forum, then explanations must be given to refute the suggestions and allegations. 

Even if the person making them, doesn't seem to listen to the answers. You may call that going round in circles but it has come to feel like deliberate trolling.

[Meantime]

3 minutes ago, JanetAnne said:

I thought the maximum size of a broads hire boat was 45x12'6 and has been for quite some time. There are no restrictions on height except for the access it denies.

That was James's point that there have always been long boats, the perception of much larger boats is because they have perhaps got taller, but as TheQ has picked up on, it is also the increase in quantity of longer boats that is equally concerning, or perhaps should be.

Whilst the limit is now 45ft, I believe there were two 50ft Alphas in hire which perhaps predated the regulations on length.

[RealWindmill]

1 minute ago, Vaughan said:

When the reputation and professionalism of traditional Broads businesses is repeatedly impugned, on a Broads forum, then explanations must be given to refute the suggestions and allegations. 

Even if the person making them, doesn't seem to listen to the answers. You may call that going round in circles but it has come to feel like deliberate trolling.

Name caling , yet again.

Second thoughts , yes Lock it down.

[rightsaidfred]

2 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Blast. Sent by mistake while typing.

the qoute was from RSF

to continue

large boat then it is the duty of the helm to get away. In strong winds maybe not easy. But the experienced helm will have a better chance than a novice.

Training. Think on.

Could you explain that comment please as it makes no sense to me.

Fred

 

[oldgregg]

10 minutes ago, JanetAnne said:

I thought the maximum size of a broads hire boat was 45x12'6 and has been for quite some time. There are no restrictions on height except for the access it denies.

Actually, for some mad reason there isn't technically a maximum size for hireboats.

But any boat first registered with the BA after 1992 and which exceeds 46' x 12'6" has restrictions upon where it is allowed to go.

Older hire boats (and there aren't many now) which exceed those dimensions are therefore technically still allowed to go anywhere. The AF48 CC Brinks Emperors are the obvious examples.

But for newer boats outside of those dimensions technically the Chet, Ant and a few other places are off limits. For that reason, hire firms don't build boats bigger than those dimensions as it limits their appeal.

Broom have some fairly new boats bigger than that (which are from a cancelled order) but their cruising range is limited. They've been seen at Loddon, though....

[RealWindmill]

1 minute ago, rightsaidfred said:

Could you explain that comment please as it makes no sense to me.

Fred

 

Certainly, let me attempt a double quote here.  My original quote was from rsf

34 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

 

Back to what prompted the original post, it highlights two recent tragedies, the first one very sadly was a pure accident that resulted in tragic consequences where similar occurrences that have happened in the past have resulted in no more than someone getting wet, I am in no way trying to play down the sad loss of life just that the end result like so many incidents is down to good or bad fortune, I don`t know the full circumstances of what occurred but it would appear to some extent to revolve around the young lady`s position on the stern of the boat.

 

10 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

Thank goodness. A reasoned comment again and worthy of discussion . Perhaps there's life in this old  and interesting thread yet.

In the oil business where there is at times high risk operations going on. One training mantra is there is no such thing as an accident. All events have a cause and the secret of safe operations is to eliminate as much as humanly possible that cause, normally by training . Their safety record speaks volumes for itself after the industry matured from its original bad image days.

So to the Broads and recent tragedies.

Not pre-empting inquirees nor speculating on any event here but just making a very basic comment on boathandling. If a person finds themselves trapped under the hull of a 

 

5 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

 

large boat then it is the duty of the helm to get away. In strong winds maybe not easy. But the experienced helm will have a better chance than a novice.

Training. Think on.

Please read quotes concurrently.  Make sense now I hope.

[TheQ]

1 minute ago, JanetAnne said:

I thought the maximum size of a broads hire boat was 45x12'6 and has been for quite some time. There are no restrictions on height except for the access it denies.

The max width depends on the rivers it wants access to ,

Part 1 (Beam Restrictions)

(a) Vessels having a beam of 3.8 metres (12ft 6ins) or less. No restriction.

(b) Vessels having a beam exceeding 3.8 metres (12ft 6ins).

River Wensum: Upstream of Foundry Bridge River Yare:

Upstream of Trowse Eye Bird’s Dyke and Surlingham

Fleet Dyke Rockland Boat Dyke, Fleet Dyke and Short Dyke Langley Dyke Hardley Dyke

River Chet: The entire waterway River Waveney: Geldeston Boat Dyke River Bure:

Upstream of “The Rising Sun”, Coltishall Upton Dyke Hermitage Dyke, Acle River Ant:

The entire waterway and its navigable branches including Barton Broad River Thurne:

Upstream of Dungeon Corner Catfield Dyke and its branches

Waxham Cut Meadow Dyke Candle Dyke Womack Dyke and Womack Water

[Vaughan]

20 minutes ago, JanetAnne said:

I thought the maximum size of a broads hire boat was 45x12'6 and has been for quite some time.

The length limit on hire boats in Europe is 15 metres - about 45ft. Beyond that, it becomes a hotel barge, which needs a different licence and a skipper.