Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.

[oldgregg]

4 minutes ago, TheQ said:

The max width depends on the rivers it wants access to ,

Part 1 (Beam Restrictions)

(a) Vessels having a beam of 3.8 metres (12ft 6ins) or less. No restriction.

(b) Vessels having a beam exceeding 3.8 metres (12ft 6ins).

River Wensum: Upstream of Foundry Bridge River Yare:

Upstream of Trowse Eye Bird’s Dyke and Surlingham

Fleet Dyke Rockland Boat Dyke, Fleet Dyke and Short Dyke Langley Dyke Hardley Dyke

River Chet: The entire waterway River Waveney: Geldeston Boat Dyke River Bure:

Upstream of “The Rising Sun”, Coltishall Upton Dyke Hermitage Dyke, Acle River Ant:

The entire waterway and its navigable branches including Barton Broad River Thurne:

Upstream of Dungeon Corner Catfield Dyke and its branches

Waxham Cut Meadow Dyke Candle Dyke Womack Dyke and Womack Water

In part 2 of the schedule of size restrictions, you'll note that the same restrictions also apply to boats which are longer than 46 feet.

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0021/180633/Vessel_Dimensions_Byelaws-1.pdf

[rightsaidfred]

1 minute ago, RealWindmill said:

Certainly, let me attempt a double quote here.  My original quote was from rsf

 

 

Please read quotes concurrently.  Make sense now I hope.

Sorry still dosn`t make a lot of sense, size is irrelevant I have used boats between 24` and 40` and currently have a 38` boat, in all cases the larger the boat the easier it has been to handle.

Experience is something you gain not something you can be taught.

What do you propose regarding training for private owners, I have probably had as many incidents with private boats as hire boats especially the small sports type boats, and after 40 years am not immune to making an error myself. 

Fred

[TheQ]

1 minute ago, oldgregg said:

In part 2 of the schedule of size restrictions, you'll note that the same restrictions also apply to boats which are longer than 46 feet.

yep..

[oldgregg]

2 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Sorry still dosn`t make a lot of sense, size is irrelevant I have used boats between 24` and 40` and currently have a 38` boat, in all cases the larger the boat the easier it has been to handle.

It does, though, because you can't moor two 14' beam boats (with fenders) in Neatishead staithe and get a third down the middle, nor can you sensibly turn a boat of more than 46' at Dilham when the moorings are in use.

Equally, two Broom Explorers meeting each other on the twisty part of the Chet could be interesting...

[Meantime]

An interesting aside whilst talking about limits and regulations. There is a maximum limit of 12 people onboard for hire boats, yet no limit to the number of people that someone can take on board their own boat providing it is not for reward. Notwithstanding the current Corona virus regulations off course.

We once saw a private boat going through the centre of Norwich and we counted somewhere in the region of 20 people on board. I don't know if there where others inside. I contacted the BA a few days later and asked the question to be told that if it was private and not for reward there was no regulation and it is a matter for the owner and helm to ensure everyone is safe. I would imagine the insurance company may have taken a dim view of it in the event of an accident.

[rightsaidfred]

Just now, oldgregg said:

It does, though, because you can't moor two 14' beam boats (with fenders) in Neatishead staithe and get a third down the middle, nor can you sensibly turn a boat of more than 46' at Dilham when the moorings are in use.

With respect we are talking handling here not how much room you take up.

Fred

[Vaughan]

7 minutes ago, TheQ said:

(b) Vessels having a beam exceeding 3.8 metres (12ft 6ins).

River Wensum: Upstream of Foundry Bridge River Yare:

Upstream of Trowse Eye Bird’s Dyke and Surlingham

Fleet Dyke Rockland Boat Dyke, Fleet Dyke and Short Dyke Langley Dyke Hardley Dyke

River Chet: The entire waterway River Waveney: Geldeston Boat Dyke River Bure:

Upstream of “The Rising Sun”, Coltishall Upton Dyke Hermitage Dyke, Acle River Ant:

The entire waterway and its navigable branches including Barton Broad River Thurne:

Upstream of Dungeon Corner Catfield Dyke and its branches

Waxham Cut Meadow Dyke Candle Dyke Womack Dyke and Womack Water

Funny that the big Broom boats have a beam of 4.2. metres, but they don't seem to be able to go anywhere interesting on the tributaries of the Yare?

Mind you they do, as I have often seen them . . . . 

[oldgregg]

5 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

With respect we are talking handling here not how much room you take up.

We're talking about why the limits are in place. You can't have hire boats that don't fit the system otherwise there'll be problems.

But yes, a bigger boat has more displacement and is therefore generally more stable. The old MK1 Fair Entrepreneurs have the handling and agility of a small housing estate, though.

[Vaughan]

6 minutes ago, Meantime said:

I contacted the BA a few days later and asked the question to be told that if it was private and not for reward there was no regulation and it is a matter for the owner and helm to ensure everyone is safe. I would imagine the insurance company may have taken a dim view of it in the event of an accident.

Any boat built after 1996, private or hire, must be built to ERCD and is certified for a number of persons. It must also have a plaque in the wheelhouse to show this.

The limit of 12 (plus a skipper) comes from the Board of Trade regulation, where anything above that becomes a passenger ship, which requires all sorts of equipment such as life rafts or lifeboats; safety railings and must also carry a doctor on board.

[oldgregg]

11 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Funny that the big Broom boats have a beam of 4.2. metres, but they don't seem to be able to go anywhere interesting on the tributaries of the Yare?

Mind you they do, as I have often seen them . . . . 

This is the problem with allowing hire boats outside of the 'max' dimensions. They are going to go where they're not supposed to. Partly because people don't know any better.

On top of the list of things a new hirer has to remember, are they going to have the schedule of limits in front of them at all times? Not going to happen.

[Vaughan]

8 minutes ago, oldgregg said:

10 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

With respect we are talking handling here not how much room you take up.

We're talking about why the limits are in place. You can't have hire boats that don't fit the system otherwise there'll be problems.

I think Fred was replying to posts about training.

[RealWindmill]

13 minutes ago, Meantime said:

An interesting aside whilst talking about limits and regulations. There is a maximum limit of 12 people onboard for hire boats, yet no limit to the number of people that someone can take on board their own boat providing it is not for reward. Notwithstanding the current Corona virus regulations off course.

We once saw a private boat going through the centre of Norwich and we counted somewhere in the region of 20 people on board. I don't know if there where others inside. I contacted the BA a few days later and asked the question to be told that if it was private and not for reward there was no regulation and it is a matter for the owner and helm to ensure everyone is safe. I would imagine the insurance company may have taken a dim view of it in the event of an accident.

Interesting point. One of the tickets I took years ago licensed me to helm with up to 30 passengers onboard.

Nowadays on my private boat I am allowed to carry many more ( if it was big enough and if i had that many friends to take ).

Crazy or what.

[oldgregg]

5 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I think Fred was replying to posts about training.

Indeed, but vessel size ties in with it. You can't have a hire boat that's too big for the corners of the system.

[RealWindmill]

Quote from rsf

Experience is something you gain not something you can be taught..

Exactly right , but teaching quickens the experience learning curve considerably.

Also in many cases i think you can use the words 'experienced' and 'trained' interchangeably.

I don't think the oil companies have got it wrong given their excellent Safety to Personnel records of recent decades since their old cowboy image days.  They will tell you training and HSE works.

[Vaughan]

6 minutes ago, RealWindmill said:

I don't think the oil companies have got it wrong given their excellent Safety to Personnel records of recent decades since their old cowboy image days.  They will tell you training and HSE works.

I must say that my time on British Gas platforms in the North Sea was the safest environment that I have ever worked in.

[vanessan]

35 minutes ago, TheQ said:

The max width depends on the rivers it wants access to ,

Part 1 (Beam Restrictions)

(a) Vessels having a beam of 3.8 metres (12ft 6ins) or less. No restriction.

(b) Vessels having a beam exceeding 3.8 metres (12ft 6ins).

River Wensum: Upstream of Foundry Bridge River Yare:

Upstream of Trowse Eye Bird’s Dyke and Surlingham

Fleet Dyke Rockland Boat Dyke, Fleet Dyke and Short Dyke Langley Dyke Hardley Dyke

River Chet: The entire waterway River Waveney: Geldeston Boat Dyke River Bure:

Upstream of “The Rising Sun”, Coltishall Upton Dyke Hermitage Dyke, Acle River Ant:

The entire waterway and its navigable branches including Barton Broad River Thurne:

Upstream of Dungeon Corner Catfield Dyke and its branches

Waxham Cut Meadow Dyke Candle Dyke Womack Dyke and Womack Water

That list is quite interesting. I wonder what the crew of one of those big Brooms would say if challenged about being in Langley or Rockland Short Dykes because they frequently are!

[Vaughan]

42 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

The limit of 12 (plus a skipper) comes from the Board of Trade regulation, where anything above that becomes a passenger ship, which requires all sorts of equipment such as life rafts or lifeboats; safety railings and must also carry a doctor on board.

This is the Geest Line's beautiful old ship "Geestbay", a refrigerated banana boat which traded in the British islands of the Caribbean.

To get round the Board of Trade regulation, she only carried 12 paying passengers.  As this accommodation had been designed for directors of the Geest Line, it was somewhat spacious and luxurious!

She used to moor in the Pool of London, more or less where HMS Belfast now moors. So I have been under Tower Bridge, in her.

 

[oldgregg]

28 minutes ago, vanessan said:

That list is quite interesting. I wonder what the crew of one of those big Brooms would say if challenged about being in Langley or Rockland Short Dykes because they frequently are!

They'd say they didn't know....

That's the problem.

[Vaughan]

2 minutes ago, oldgregg said:

They'd say they didn't know....

And what do you do, once they are moored there in Pye's Mill?

Give them a parking ticket maybe.

[Meantime]

14 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

And what do you do, once they are moored there in Pye's Mill?

Give them a parking ticket maybe.

Well technically they could be liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

However if they could prove "(c) that he had other reasonable excuse for his act or failure to act."

I would guess you could not reasonably expect a hirer to have knowledge of all the regulations and byelaws, however, and I must stress I don't know since I haven't been on one of those vessels, if there was a plaque near the helm that said this vessel must not be navigated down xyz, or refer to map in skippers manual for limits of cruising, then that would pretty much negate any such defence.

[Meantime]

On 23/09/2020 at 07:18, FreedomBoatingHols said:

On 22/09/2020 at 15:57, Regulo said:

Another dose of hyperbole. No, it won't capsize. No, there was no danger to life. No, there was no need for a rescue helicopter. Just wait for the next tide. And if you can't understand "Keep the green posts one side and the red posts the other", then you shouldn't be in charge of a boat. Tin hat on. 

I don't agree with this analysis. Although unusual, it is quite possible for a flooding tide to seek though vents, unsealed rubbing strake fixings and other downflooding points.  These cruisers aren't specifically designed to sit on dry moorings and float on the next tide. I've had one sink in a slipway when a particularly low tide sat her on the bottom and the water rise wasn't enough to float the stern before entering a  downflooding point. I know it's rare, but it can happen. 

I was actually searching for another picture in relation to something else, but came across this picture, which reminded me of something Andy had said earlier in this thread. It's not Breydon, but either the Lower Wveney before Goodchild, or the Lower Bure, but it does reinforce what Andy said about these boats are not specifically designed to sit on dry moorings, although this is the only case I'm aware of a boat tipping over like that.

[vanessan]

27 minutes ago, Meantime said:

Well technically they could be liable to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

However if they could prove "(c) that he had other reasonable excuse for his act or failure to act."

I would guess you could not reasonably expect a hirer to have knowledge of all the regulations and byelaws, however, and I must stress I don't know since I haven't been on one of those vessels, if there was a plaque near the helm that said this vessel must not be navigated down xyz, or refer to map in skippers manual for limits of cruising, then that would pretty much negate any such defence.

The details on the website for these boats do say that they cannot navigate the Ant or Chet and ‘some smaller Broads’ - whatever the latter means. I would assume therefore that there would be something on the boat itself as a reminder. 

 

2 minutes ago, Meantime said:

I was actually searching for another picture in relation to something else, but came across this picture, which reminded me of something Andy had said earlier in this thread. It's not Breydon, but either the Lower Wveney before Goodchild, or the Lower Bure, but it does reinforce what Andy said about these boats are not specifically designed to sit on dry moorings, although this is the only case I'm aware of a boat tipping over like that.

Is that a recent picture do you know?

[Meantime]

Just now, vanessan said:

The details on the website for these boats do say that they cannot navigate the Ant or Chet and ‘some smaller Broads’ - whatever the latter means. I would assume therefore that there would be something on the boat itself as a reminder. 

 

Is that a recent picture do you know?

It was from an incident back in 2015. 

[Vaughan]

5 minutes ago, Meantime said:

It was from an incident back in 2015. 

And how many like that, have there been since?

Compared to the hundreds of thousands, even millions, who have since cruised that waterway in peace and tranquility?

[grendel]

2 hours ago, RealWindmill said:

to continue

large boat then it is the duty of the helm to get away. In strong winds maybe not easy. But the experienced helm will have a better chance than a novice.

Training. Think on.

surely if someone were under the hull, the very last thing you would want the helm to do would be to use that big choppy thing under the boat, out of gear and no prop turning would be my thought.

my training has always been to make the environment safe first, then attend to the casualty.