Another Incident At Grt Yarmouth I'm Afraid.

[JennyMorgan]

30 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Are you quoting yourself for extra emphasis, Peter?  

Really don't know how that happened!

[JennyMorgan]

38 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Personally I think the yards have a very solid system and tradition behind them and there is no need for extra measures. They know what they are doing and they will cope with this influx.

Agreed but facts is facts, there have been some horrendous incidents this year and at least one prop related death. Eventually, perhaps, we shall be told just how many of these casualties involved new comers to boating. 

I have recently been involved in winding up two estates and dealing with banks. In dealing with banks, Lloyds and Barclays. I have had to listen to and view several related video presentations. I have then had to sign declarations to the effect that I had seen the presentations, that I understood them and was offered the opportunity to ask questions. Annoying, perhaps, but wholly understandable in this day and age. 

[Poppy]

8 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Agreed but facts is facts, there have been some horrendous incidents this year and at least one prop related death. Eventually, perhaps, we shall be told just how many of these casualties involved new comers to boating. 

I have recently been involved in winding up two estates and dealing with banks. In dealing with banks, Lloyds and Barclays. I have had to listen to and view several related video presentations. I have then had to sign declarations to the effect that I had seen the presentations, that I understood them and was offered the opportunity to ask questions. Annoying, perhaps, but wholly understandable in this day and age. 

Such videos already exist for Broads boat hirers ,  there can be no reasonable objection to such requirements for such requirements to be put in place.

[rightsaidfred]

You can have all the education you like all the regulation you like you will never remove the human factor.

Fred

[Bytheriver]

I have been in the vicinity of a Day Boat Hire Yard for several days recently & clip boards & signatures were very much in evidence!

I cannot of course vouch for if this is something new, improved or has always happened, but in evidence none the less.

[Poppy]

1 hour ago, rightsaidfred said:

You can have all the education you like all the regulation you like you will never remove the human factor.

Fred

Are you trying to say that you can't legislate  for idiots ?

[Poppy]

1 hour ago, Bytheriver said:

I have been in the vicinity of a Day Boat Hire Yard for several days recently & clip boards & signatures were very much in evidence!

I cannot of course vouch for if this is something new, improved or has always happened, but in evidence none the less.

That will be for covid track and trace .

[JennyMorgan]

57 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Are you trying to say that you can't legislate  for idiots ?

Don't you politely mean 'catering for the lowest common denominator'?

Even that would be unfair because no one on this earth can know everything. 

Put me on a boat and I would feel entirely at home. 

Put me on a horse and I would feel lost, probably literally too! I might do what I think to be entirely sensible yet a horse person might accuse me, probably rightly, of being a raving idiot, like what we do bumbling numpties on boats! 

[grendel]

you have to remember people have to learn boating somewhere, on the broads they learn something in their first week, a lot learn enough to want to try it again, next time they learn a bit more. i have been quite a few times now, and the minute i stop learning things will be the day i have stopped doing things.

[rightsaidfred]

While the human factor does include the idiotic element it also comprises many other components we are all prone to including misjudgement, complacency and simply getting things wrong.

Fred

[MauriceMynah]

This was something that I tried to get some support for in the other place some years back.

People don't like to be told what to do, and if they are going to watch a training video, it needs to be a vid that is funny, informative, entertaining and  educating all at the same time. Something that the "lowest common denominator" would want to watch more than once, maybe even three or four times, because it's enjoyable.

Many a good message can be "got across"  in that way.

It needs to be a mix of live footage and animation. It needs to last between 20 to 40 minutes.

It needs some big names, not necessarily from the "celeb list" but perhaps some political or other high profile faces.

For example (and I do mean an example)  the Pope helping Boris Johnson out of the water saying "without a life jacket you wouldn't stand a prayer."  As I say, an example, but given the magnitude of the problem, and given it's relevance to other areas (Thames, Lake district etc.etc.) I believe it could be done.

I believe it could be done, I believe it should be done. I also think that within this community we have the knowledge required, The BA has the influence required and the tourist industry has the will required.

Last time I suggested this I was shouted down. Maybe I'll have more luck this time.

[NorfolkNog]

5 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

I do have some ideas. One being that boatyards hold lectures on boat handling in one of their boatsheds or in a marquee. These could be run on a continuous basis, on a loop so to speak, starting every half an hour. Hirers would have to be signed off before picking up their boats, a condition of hire.

That is actually a very good idea. Mrs Nog gave some assistance to a crew of first timers mooring at the Bridge Inn a couple of week ago. They were very grateful, Mrs N asked if the yard had given any advice and they said not. Maybe they just concentrate on safety issues which is faircraft enough. But surely the big yards could organise some socially distancing accommodaion JM suggests. 

[AndyTBoater]

Like this one??

[Poppy]

46 minutes ago, NorfolkNog said:

That is actually a very good idea. Mrs Nog gave some assistance to a crew of first timers mooring at the Bridge Inn a couple of week ago. They were very grateful, Mrs N asked if the yard had given any advice and they said not. Maybe they just concentrate on safety issues which is faircraft enough. But surely the big yards could organise some socially distancing accommodaion JM suggests. 

I did the same for a crew of 'newbies' at LudhamBridge a week ago.  They were just the same, had been given no advice on even the very basic elements. 

[grendel]

i think it falls upon all of us more experienced broads users to assist and advise this growing number of new visitors to the area.

[Poppy]

35 minutes ago, grendel said:

i think it falls upon all of us more experienced broads users to assist and advise this growing number of new visitors to the area.

Whilst I agree, surely the real onus should fall on the yards ? After all, they are required under the terms of their licence .

"a) The Operator must ensure that before using a Vessel the Skipper is given:(i)An appropriate briefing in accordance with British Marine Federation (BMF)/Association of Inland Navigation Authorities (AINA) /Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) Code for the Design and Construction and Operation of Hire Boats, Part 1, Section 5.2 Handover Procedures (September 2009) (or as subsequently amended).(ii)A proper demonstration on how to fit, wear and use the buoyancy aids or lifejackets provided with the Vessel.(iii)An instruction to advise those on board the Vessel in the use of the buoyancy aids or lifejackets.(b) The Operator mustrecord in writing and retain details of all briefings, demonstrations and instructions given under paragraph 9 (a) "

https://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/boating/owning-a-boat/Hired-powerboat-licensing

[Cheesey69]

You sell it like a holiday and then turn it into a driving test

A bit like the brochures where everyone is sitting outside a pub. No mention of the chances of actually mooring there 

no one wants reality 

better designed boats, wider walkways, tunnelled props and ladders

[grendel]

4 minutes ago, Cheesey69 said:

no one wants reality 

better designed boats, wider walkways, tunnelled props and ladders

but the reality is that if you introduced these measures into new designs, in 50 years time there will still be boats on hire and private that wont have these features, you have to remember the working lives of these boats, Marthams fleet are all 60 years old at least, and i wouldnt be at all surprised to see them still under hire in 50 more years.

[NorfolkNog]

When the yards do the handover they do a 'tick list' - Hoseasons have a standard sheet. I can't remember exactly what's on it but I think it concentrates on safety, speeding etc. Understandably it is to cover the yard against possible litigation. Basic boat handling advice is probably lower priority and hirers can only absorb so much. It's a tricky one. And I agree, if you make too much of a lecture or a test then it's not so much of a holiday. I learnt the hard way but had the advantage of having been on the Broads with my parents. 

Some friends of ours hired a large 37 footer with just two of them during a windy week. I gather they had a lot of trouble mooring and sadly said they would never go back.  

Some of the recent staycation first timers probably just wanted a holiday and perhaps don't want to get too involved. As Grendel says we should help if we can but of course there isn't always a helpful Poppy on hand!! 

[JennyMorgan]

37 minutes ago, Cheesey69 said:

You sell it like a holiday and then turn it into a driving test

If that is what it takes to prevent people reversing over a crew member then so be it. 

[ExSurveyor]

Perhaps been asked before, but here goes,

Is there any reason propellers can't be retro fitted with safety cages.

[JennyMorgan]

I see cages fitted on RNLI RIBs so presumably they can be fitted.

[JennyMorgan]

RYA prop guard advice:

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/safe-boating/look-after-yourself/equipment-for-uk-pleasure-vessels/Pages/prop-guards.aspx

[Vaughan]

10 hours ago, Cheesey69 said:

A bit like the brochures where everyone is sitting outside a pub. No mention of the chances of actually mooring there 

It has often been commented, that it never rains or blows a gale, in brochure photos!

[MauriceMynah]

Ok, time to make myself unpopular (again).

Yes it is tragic when someone loses their life, and yes we should all feel sympathetic to those the victim leaves behind.

BUT.

Deaths owing to propeller injuries are rare. Very rare. Is it going to be the norm that whenever somebody dies of anything avoidable, the entire industry concerned has to make drastic changes to their businesses just to accommodate the very few likely victims?

Before coming back at me with the "One death is too many" think on two statistics. The number of deaths on the roads, against the number of car journeys that were not really necessary. In many cases kids can walk to school. That shopping trip wasn't really that important and if the trip was less than a half a mile, you could, no, should have walked.

I shall not speculate the details of the Yarmouth incident but if the data suggest that the situation was due to a combination of factors then individuals can learn from it by all means, but it is inappropriate ineffective and generally pointless to run about like a bunch of headless chickens demanding prop guards be fitted to all leisure boats etc. etc.

Rant not over, just paused!