Is The BA Prepared?

[marshman]

Vaughan - as I said at the time I suspect that this is all "posturing"!!! Can anyone tell me what has been different this year to cause all this and why if it is the sad deaths that have occurred, why has it not been introduced before?

Have not these sad instances never happened before? I do not have the figures but taken over ,say a 10 year spell, have they really changed much? Of course they fluctuate but that is because everyone would like to see no deaths, but is that realistic? 

Just because 76 people die EVERY DAY on our roads has not led to maximum speed limits of 50mph countrywide, nor an insistence that everyone should take their driving test annually - doing both would probably reduce the total daily number by perhaps 25 to 50% -  that level of deaths each day goes by without anyone batting an eyelid - sadly!

And as for suggesting they take an RYA course, thats totally irrelevant as I know plenty who have and they still cannot drive, steer, moor or sail a boat - just as everyone who has passed their driving test cannot all drive as we would  expect.

No - they seem to be acting as they are appalled but its all show. They would do more use in stopping all boats south of Stokesby and asking them to actually wear their life jackets and insisting that unwearable buoyancy aids are consigned to the bonfire - there are plenty of modern buoyancy aids more suited to the circumstances than those awful things we still see hire yards issuing.( I have deliberately not suggested auto inflates as in my experience these do have issues and regular checking) and I would guess it is outside the BA's scope)

[rightsaidfred]

33 minutes ago, marshman said:

Vaughan - as I said at the time I suspect that this is all "posturing"!!! Can anyone tell me what has been different this year to cause all this and why if it is the sad deaths that have occurred, why has it not been introduced before?

Have not these sad instances never happened before? I do not have the figures but taken over ,say a 10 year spell, have they really changed much? Of course they fluctuate but that is because everyone would like to see no deaths, but is that realistic? 

Just because 76 people die EVERY DAY on our roads has not led to maximum speed limits of 50mph countrywide, nor an insistence that everyone should take their driving test annually - doing both would probably reduce the total daily number by perhaps 25 to 50% -  that level of deaths each day goes by without anyone batting an eyelid - sadly!

And as for suggesting they take an RYA course, thats totally irrelevant as I know plenty who have and they still cannot drive, steer, moor or sail a boat - just as everyone who has passed their driving test cannot all drive as we would  expect.

No - they seem to be acting as they are appalled but its all show. They would do more use in stopping all boats south of Stokesby and asking them to actually wear their life jackets and insisting that unwearable buoyancy aids are consigned to the bonfire - there are plenty of modern buoyancy aids more suited to the circumstances than those awful things we still see hire yards issuing.( I have deliberately not suggested auto inflates as in my experience these do have issues and regular checking) and I would guess it is outside the BA's scope)

The advice on life jackets is one matter on the agenda although what staffing levels would be required to stop every boat between Stokesby dawn to dusk I have no idea.

All we  have on here is a resume of a meeting where certain proposals were made, I dont intend to make any justifications for or against these proposals just advocate that we keep an open mind and give due consideration to whatever decisions are reached.

Fred

[Vaughan]

40 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

I think we are at cross purposes here we are not talking basic boat handling skills in Wroxham or Stalham but understanding the tidal conditions at GY and Breydon etc well enough to advise new hirers.

 

Oh dear me.

How far do we have to look back, over the decades of experience in this business?

When you go on board a boat to give a trial run, the first question that you always ask is : Have you been before?  Is this your first time?  The answer to that, will govern your trial run from then on.

If they are first timers they will be recommended to stay above Acle Bridge and enjoy a gentle holiday on the north rivers.  If they find they like it, and want to come back next year, then they can venture down to the south rivers and will be advised how to do so.

You can't teach everything, to first timers, on one trial run. Those forumites who think every risk must be covered and every box must be ticked, in just one initiation, to what most of us on our private cruisers, have spent years learning, should perhaps try it for themselves!

 

And of course, there is the eternal psychological problem : you cannot teach anyone anything, if they don't want to take the time to listen to you.

 

 

[rightsaidfred]

7 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Oh dear me.

How far do we have to look back, over the decades of experience in this business?

When you go on board a boat to give a trial run, the first question that you always ask is : Have you been before?  Is this your first time?  The answer to that, will govern your trial run from then on.

If they are first timers they will be recommended to stay above Acle Bridge and enjoy a gentle holiday on the north rivers.  If they find they like it, and want to come back next year, then they can venture down to the south rivers and will be advised how to do so.

You can't teach everything, to first timers, on one trial run. Those forumites who think every risk must be covered and every box must be ticked, in just one initiation, to what most of us on our private cruisers, have spent years learning, should perhaps try it for themselves!

 

And of course, there is the eternal psychological problem : you cannot teach anyone anything, if they don't want to take the time to listen to you.

 

 

Sorry but that is not representative of any handover I ever received or the feedback I get from many first timers I try to help, I think you are confusing your approach to that of the majority of larger yards.

Fred

[Vaughan]

18 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

I think you are confusing your approach to that of the majority of larger yards.

But I have worked for the large yards, for a large number of years.  And I have been in a position responsible for their training.

I am sorry if your personal experience has given you a bad impression of the business.

[MauriceMynah]

My take on this.

As a family we have hired boats from most boatyards over a period of 55 years, sometimes twice a year.

Only in the much later years, when we were hiring the same boat from the same yard did we not have the "trial run".

Each yard insisted we had one even when we were on a repeat booking. So, in short I have been witness to, or had roughly 70 trial runs.

Do I still make mistakes? You bet I do.

Do I still do stupid things? You bet I do

Do I wear a life jacket?  Only sometimes, usually if I travel south.

I think the handovers are as good as we should reasonably expect. Those who say "we were never told" probably were, but weren't listening. I doubt anybody would admit that though! 

[rightsaidfred]

8 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

But I have worked for the large yards, for a large number of years.  And I have been in a position responsible for their training.

I am sorry if your personal experience has given you a bad impression of the business.

Not just mine but the majority of people I speak to and have over the last 40 years, I have a lot of respect for the hire trade and its contribution to the broads infrustructure but not for the quality of hand over procedure, whether thats policy or staff members I dont know but I do know how many first timers are put off and in some cases terrified by the lack of information/training they are given on handover and that is recent not just in the past, many dont even realise a boat dosnt stear in reverse or how to approach or get off a mooring in windy conditions let alone that bow thrusters are not a replacement for a steering wheel, I am sorry Vaughan but the real world isnt always the one we remember.

Fred

[Vaughan]

3 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

I am sorry Vaughan but the real world isnt always the one we remember.

I take that personally, in view of the posts I have just made.

[YnysMon]

We’ve never had a trial run, not even on our first hire. I wonder if the Yards have got less vigilant about insisting on a trial run in recent years? When asked about our experience on our first cruiser hire we said we’d hired a Hunter’s Yard boat the previous year and that Graham had worked for his Dad in a Yard in Trearddur Bay when he was younger, including manning the rescue launch for races in the bay.

We’ve messed up now and again. Sea and tidal river are very different environments, and every boat handles differently. I’m not sure that a trial run would have helped. We knew the ‘theory’, just needed practice. 

[rightsaidfred]

6 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I take that personally, in view of the posts I have just made.

Then I am sorry because it wasnt ment to be disrespectful but just a statement of the facts that many of us witness regularly.

Fred

[floydraser]

Safety: Vaughan probably hit the nail on the head with his reference to litigation lawyers; the BA may think, quite rightly IMO, that they should be seen to be doing something in the light of the publicity given to  accidents. Investigations into accidents often look at competence and training. As MM eluded to, how many who were told something would claim at an enquiry that they weren't? So the more training boxes ticked, the safer you are from blame.

Having said that, I can also believe that there are probably no more accidents today (relative to the amount of people) than there has ever been, it's just that the internet and social media means more people get to hear about them and talk about them.

Of course there's no substitue for experience though. If I were hiring I think I would prefer the hand over to be from someone who instantly shows a relaxed demeanor, seen it all before, met all sorts type of attitude. Along with a bit of banter and a sense of humour. I doubt the BA or anyone else can teach that.

They may well get better training by reading "In search of excellence" by Tom Peters, but I doubt there's a copy in Norfolk.

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, MauriceMynah said:

My take on this.

As a family we have hired boats from most boatyards over a period of 55 years, sometimes twice a year.

Only in the much later years, when we were hiring the same boat from the same yard did we not have the "trial run".

Each yard insisted we had one even when we were on a repeat booking. So, in short I have been witness to, or had roughly 70 trial runs.

Do I still make mistakes? You bet I do.

Do I still do stupid things? You bet I do

Do I wear a life jacket?  Only sometimes, usually if I travel south.

I think the handovers are as good as we should reasonably expect. Those who say "we were never told" probably were, but weren't listening. I doubt anybody would admit that though! 

Sorry to disagree here, in our days of hiring we hired from 5 broads yards and 3 Thames yards and on only 2 occasions did I receive more than a switch this on turn that off handover and neither of them lasted more than a few minutes, the comments I get today from hirers from a couple of yards suggest nothing much has changed.

Fred

[MauriceMynah]

1 minute ago, rightsaidfred said:

Sorry to disagree here, in our days of hiring we hired from 5 broads yards and 3 Thames yards and on only 2 occasions did I receive more than a switch this on turn that off handover and neither of them lasted more than a few minutes, the comments I get today from hirers from a couple of yards suggest nothing much has changed.

Fred

Well as happens on this forum from time to time, we will have to agree to disagree. My experience differs greatly from yours yet we are both "old hands" at the game.

For me, we have hired from Richardson's, Brinks, Ernest Collins, Faircraft Loynes, Ripplecraft, Moorecraft and Royalls, all in a period between 1965 and 2006. Only Royalls stopped bothering to give a handover lessons, and that was only after we had hired the same boat for several years, twice a year.

There is a very limited time available for handover tuition so yes, it's bound to cover only the basics, but if you divide the number of serious incidents by the number of hires I think it would indicate that the training is sufficient for the most part.

It's always going to be a delicate balance between how many different situations a yard can train the hirer in, against having the hirer's eyes glaze over and stop listening.

In these litigation crazy days, it is inevitable that if the hirer has a mishap, it won't be their fault, and if they can claim negligence from the boatyard for not telling them that towing one of the crew in the dinghy whilst both the towed, and the helmsman are ****** as newts was dangerous, they will! 

[JennyMorgan]

When officialdom wades in then it all becomes a tick box exercise where experience counts for little. 

[grendel]

well my first experience of a trial run was more of a this is where yhis is, this is where that is, the boat steers from the back, a  quick trip up the river then back down, the trainer then stepped off and said off you go.

the second  (from a different yard, was - have you been before - answer yes, right here ais where everything it, this is how you turn this on / off, loosen the ropes, a quick push out and off you go.

subsequent ones were even briefer limited to showing what did what on the boat, and off you go, when i took a boat out for a second time, it was well you know where everything is, see you next week.

personally this hasnt given me any problems, but I still mess up occasionally.

but I can understand the issues people could have, by the time i get going I have usually read the manual from cover to cover..

So not every yard gives a hirer a decent handover, my first crossing of Breydon was on my first hire, but I had been on the forum and asked questions, and I had read the guidance in the handbook, so nothing untoward happened.

Nowadays I have a decent manual lifejacket, and use that where necessary, do I use it every time I am mooring up - no, but I evaluate the risks first and if they warrent it, I wear it, its always readily available to grab.

[JennyMorgan]

7 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I have no idea what that is, or what it involves but the word dayboat suggests it may not be relevant to instructors for a weekly cruising holiday?

i might be wrong but I believe that all the Navigation Rangers have to achieve said RYA certificate, as has the CEO.

[Wussername]

Basically the trial run consists of three parts. The tour round the outside and inside of the boat which will include fixtures and fittings, in particular, heating, appliances, showers and toilets.  Secondly good boating practice, how to take care of your boat, its crew and the etiquettes which need to be adhered to. Finally, boat handling which to a great extent require hands on at the time of instruction.

You will observe that some boat yards have developed over the years a sound and disciplined  approach to these matters. Some do not and it is that which the BA seek to address. This difference, this quality , of the trial run which can vary between boat yards.

To my mind there are certain aspects of the induction which are common irrespective of boat or destiny. These should be prioritised so that each and every hirer has the same basic instruction. Over a period of time all hirers will have been instructed in the same principles once again given the same priority.  For example it may be considered to be appropriate that with a person in the water, at the stern of a motor boat that the engine is stopped immediately. Not put into neutral but stopped. The same would apply to people and so important with regard to children swimming near a boat under power as witnessed at Ranworth and Salhouse. ................

However I find myself repeating myself time and time again. Only to have it repeated back to me by those who have never undertaken a trial run.

I will leave you with a thought.

Every helm makes mistakes, an error of judgement. I have to admit I am guilty as indeed we all are.

There is however a difference. I know when I am in a muddle. For the most part I know how to manage it.

Fortunately I am able to deal with it. For the most part.

 

[marshman]

I believe the only RYA certificate that is required to handle any of the BA craft or indeed workboats is the RYA Power Boat Level 2

[JennyMorgan]

9 hours ago, marshman said:

And as for suggesting they take an RYA course, thats totally irrelevant as I know plenty who have and they still cannot drive, steer, moor or sail a boat - just as everyone who has passed their driving test cannot all drive as we would  expect.

 

53 minutes ago, marshman said:

I believe the only RYA certificate that is required to handle any of the BA craft or indeed workboats is the RYA Power Boat Level 2

https://www.rya.org.uk/courses-training/courses/powerboat/Pages/level-2.aspx

The above looks reasonable to me. I now have a picture of a weekly 'wherry' race, spoil lighters/mud barges, planing under Potter Bridge! Whatever, the syllabus appears to be relevant. Would you. could you pass, be honest now? 

Problem being that experience has no quantifiable qualification, unlike an RYA certificate.

[marshman]

As far as I recall, it was not a course designed to pass or fail - you would have to be dire indeed to fail - and is really about just getting the basics and some experience, in a planing boat too!!!!

[Wussername]

If you are planing on the Broads you have failed. (Breydon and sailing excepted).

[ExSurveyor]

The suggested 20k grant for training  boatyard staff in safety measures puzzles me.

When I had to train my staff on saftey matters I had to do it in house or put my hand in my pocket to buy in these services.

Where is the funding for this grant coming from and why is it being offered to comercial organisations ?

If enhanced training for hire companies is required and they are unable to do this in house surely the should pay for it, perhaps by a surcharge on the hire boat toll so private owners aren't forced to contribute to the cost.

[Vaughan]

7 hours ago, marshman said:

As far as I recall, it was not a course designed to pass or fail - you would have to be dire indeed to fail

Sounds a bit like the French "Permis Bateau"!

[Bytheriver]

On 24/10/2020 at 12:10, YnysMon said:

I wish a few more people had time in their busy lives to be able to read the reports that were submitted to the Nav Committee, as they do answer a lot of the questions/address many of the comments that have been raised here and on other threads.

There was a lot of comment a while ago on the forum demanding that the BA take concrete steps to address safety concerns, rather than just express concern about it. In reading the Nav C'ttee reports I got the impression that the BA are attempting to do so in the proposals to provide extra training for hire yard staff responsible for handovers and the additional rangers posts. Contrary to some comments here about the additional post for dealing with paperwork, the reports suggest this as a means of ensuring that other rangers' time is freed up from said paperwork so that they can spend more time on the rivers. It's not about following up cases that otherwise wouldn't be dealth with. The way I read the reports, it seemed that the rangers' launches were not being fully utilised due to staff having to do desk work, amongst other things.

None of these things are cost neutral, so I don't see how we can complain if the additional costs are passed on if we have demanded action in the first place. It also seems that the full costs are not being passed on to tolls, and that a compromise has been reached.

I'm only commenting here about this year's hike in tolls, not Griff's observations about % increase over a period of time. I think we can all agree that this year isn't your typical year.

If it takes a week to prepare a case for CPS imagine the cost of having to train all of the Rangers - having a specialist I would have thought is the right way to go? 

[rightsaidfred]

8 hours ago, psychicsurveyor said:

The suggested 20k grant for training  boatyard staff in safety measures puzzles me.

When I had to train my staff on saftey matters I had to do it in house or put my hand in my pocket to buy in these services.

Where is the funding for this grant coming from and why is it being offered to comercial organisations ?

If enhanced training for hire companies is required and they are unable to do this in house surely the should pay for it, perhaps by a surcharge on the hire boat toll so private owners aren't forced to contribute to the cost.

There seems to be some confusion here, the 20K was towards the development of enhanced pre-visit training for hirers something many have been calling for on here, the proposed improvement to handovers and additional training for staff unfamiliar with tidal conditions on the lower Bure and Breydon are separate issues but part of the same meeting next month between the BA and hire yards.

Fred