Look Out Norfolk, Chris Packham Is Back Again!

[Vaughan]

I see in this morning's papers that Chris Packham has persuaded DEFRA (ahead of an enquiry) to restrict by licence, the release of game birds - notably pheasants - on English farmland.  Especially if the land is close to an SSSI, although I cannot for the life of me see why an SSSI has anything to do with this.

I just want to speak up for those of us who understand that our English countryside is only as beautiful as it is, because it is managed that way!  If it were not for "country pursuits" such as game shooting and yes, fox hunting, it would look very different.  Farmers only maintain their hedgerows, copses, spinneys and woodland because they can gain income (another "crop" if you like) from from the management of syndicate game shooting.  If not, I am sure they would be glad to dig all that up, so that driverless GPS tractors can plough open fields of thousands of acres each without obstacle.  Is that what we want to see here?  It has happened in northern France, in what is known as "the plains of Reims" and in the US, they call it Prairie Farming.

Is that what he wants to see, or is his celebrity TV career more important than thinking through the alternatives?

He seems to have got the RSPB on board, because they feel that we should not be releasing a non native species into the countryside. So what about the English partridge or the black grouse, which would be threatened native species if they were not reared for shooting?  On the other hand, what about heavily protected predatory raptors such as the peregrine falcon or the marsh harrier, which are not native to this country? Come to that, neither is the yellow Labrador gundog! 

I will leave the Eurasian otter out of this argument, for the moment!   

 

 

 

Any countryman looking at this will guess that this is a farm which also manages game shooting.  The field headland in front of the long spinney has been left alone so that game birds can come out from the woods to feed.  Pheasant and partridge don't take off and fly unless they have to.  If frightened, they prefer to run off back to the woods through thick cover.  Strips of kale are often grown on field edges, to give them cover.  During a shoot, this would be the area for the beaters to "put them up" so that they fly over the guns on the downwind side of the field.  The gamekeeper will always know the best place to position the guns!

 

 

 

In the last photo there is a small copse in the middle of the field and I suppose this may be a release pen, where young pheasants are released, from the rearing pens which would be in the woodland nearby.  If not, why hasn't the farmer just cut it down and ploughed it all up, to make more money out of the barley field?

These photos were taken just off Sharp Street in Catfield, a short walk from the How Hill moorings.  So next time you are there, go and have a lovely country walk and form your own opinion.  Imagine what that land would look like if it were just one flat, open, thousand acre beet field.

And don't forget the mallard duck!  A lot of the marshes on the Broads were also developed for wild fowling in the old days. Hence the name "Decoy".  An example is the so called island mooring on Malthouse Broad, where our members love to walk their dogs.  All of that private land around there was originally managed as a duck flight, extending over almost 50 acres.

When ecological pressure groups and TV celebrities start to impinge on the way our countryside has been managed over the centuries, they should be careful what they wish for.

 

 

 

[Poppy]

Re the Marsh harrier - it's migratory, always has been. Does that qualify as 'not native' ? There are now a good number of pairs that are resident the year round. I know of no schemes that have introduced them, perhaps you know differently?

The Peregrin falcon is one of the WORLD'S most common raptors. the ony continent where it is not found, either resident or as a migratory breeder is Antarctica !

The Red legged partidge however is an introduced species, which came from France for shooting in the 17 century ! 

The pheasant too  is not native to Britain, but has a long history of residence here, Like the rabbit, it's thought that they were introduced by the Romans but had become almost resident by the Norman times.

As for Cris Packham, perhaps 'Dick' would be a better given name  

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, Poppy said:

Re the Marsh harrier - it's migratory, always has been. Does that qualify as 'not native' ? There are now a good number of pairs that are resident the year round. I know of no schemes that have introduced them, perhaps you know differently?

The Peregrin falcon is one of the WORLD'S most common raptors. the ony continent where it is not found, either resident or as a migratory breeder is Antarctica !

The Red legged partidge however is an introduced species, which came from France for shooting in the 17 century ! 

 

All of this depends on how you view it.

The marsh harrier is basically African, as I understand it.

The peregrine falcon came from America, where it is called the duck falcon, I believe.

I was referring to the grey, or English partridge although the red (French) partridge is also prolific in Norfolk.

My point, of course, is that it is rather silly for the RSPB to say we should not release pheasants because they are not native to this country. They would not exist naturally in the wild here anyway, if they were not reared for shooting. So do we not want to see them in our countryside anymore? Is "natural England" now to be for some species, but not others?

[JennyMorgan]

There are those that consider Packham to be a god, I am not one of them. More like a dangerous man, in my opinion, as he panders to the gullible. 

[JennyMorgan]

5 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Is "natural England" now to be for some species, but not others?

Others including humans? Let us not forget their annoying boats too.

[Poppy]

14 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

All of this depends on how you view it.

The marsh harrier is basically African, as I understand it.

The peregrine falcon came from America, where it is called the duck falcon, I believe.

 

On that basis so is the Swallow, the Swift, the Martin family , Terns and the Cuckoo, along with many other migrant species.

The pheasant is basically Chinese , as I understand it

[floydraser]

As I see it the problem has two parts: one is that the heads of certain organisations are paid fat salaries which they would find hard to get in another profession. The second is that we are not cruel to wildlife anymore therefore these people have to invent problems to give themselves a purpose and therefore justify their positions.

So could we either find them all decent alternative employment, or just enjoy ourselves and start badger baiting, cock fighting and shooting every bird in site? I wonder if we did, would they notice as they clearly think we do all that anyway! 

[marshman]

But we are cruel to wildlife - my son lives in the North Pennines and all raptors are persecuted there for the sake of a few grouse shooting parties. Pole traps and poisoned pigeons etc on favoured posts used by the raptors too is pretty normal is it???

There is plenty of "evidence" that these methods are used regularly in the area, but catching the perpetrators is much much harder.

[floydraser]

43 minutes ago, marshman said:

But we are cruel to wildlife - my son lives in the North Pennines and all raptors are persecuted there for the sake of a few grouse shooting parties. Pole traps and poisoned pigeons etc on favoured posts used by the raptors too is pretty normal is it???

There is plenty of "evidence" that these methods are used regularly in the area, but catching the perpetrators is much much harder.

That's horrible. But the fact that it's happening at all shows these fat salaried bods are not earning their corn anyway; concentrating their efforts where they think they can earn a badge or two.

[batrabill]

Weak

[marshman]

So how do you catch the gamekeepers in question when its clearly condoned by the larger landowners who employ the gamekeepers and then turn a blind eye- perhaps you should prosecute the landowner on whose land the bird is found dead???

[Poppy]

15 minutes ago, marshman said:

So how do you catch the gamekeepers in question when its clearly condoned by the larger landowners who employ the gamekeepers and then turn a blind eye- perhaps you should prosecute the landowner on whose land the bird is found dead???

I believe that to be the case under Scottish law - if there is evidence that the shooting/ trapping or poisoning took place on his land.  Chance of that happening in England ? A fat one !

[Bytheriver]

This is the full info from DEFRA which I received on Friday but was not expecting any interest from the forum!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-gamebird-releases-on-and-around-european-protected-sites?utm_source=5de6822e-97ef-4b03-853d-380b743390a6&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

It is worth registering with DEFRA you can always delete unopened if the subject does not appeal 

[Upcycler]

Personally I have never agreed with pheasant rearing for some hoo ray henry to have fun blasting it with an 18 bore shotgun. Along with the same type of people who think it is all part of a weekend to drink champagne and chase foxes with a load of beagles. If the animals could shoot or bite back, that would be fun to see! 

[grendel]

I dont believe they use beagles, fox hounds maybe, beagles are too lazy

[grendel]

besides i thought nowadays they werent supposed to chase foxes, they should follow a scent trail.

[unclemike]

5 minutes ago, grendel said:

besides i thought nowadays they werent supposed to chase foxes, they should follow a scent trail.

it still happens

[Upcycler]

3 minutes ago, grendel said:

besides i thought nowadays they werent supposed to chase foxes, they should follow a scent trail.

Unfortunately it is said it still goes on, and there are those who ignore the law.

[MauriceMynah]

32 minutes ago, Upcycler said:

Personally I have never agreed with pheasant rearing for some hoo ray henry to have fun blasting it with an 18 bore shotgun. Along with the same type of people who think it is all part of a weekend to drink champagne and chase foxes with a load of beagles. If the animals could shoot or bite back, that would be fun to see! 

So we can kill animals to eat, but we mustn't enjoy doing so. We can kill vermin but not if we've been drinking Champagne first.

I think I can see where you're coming from.

[Upcycler]

2 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

So we can kill animals to eat, but we mustn't enjoy doing so. We can kill vermin but not if we've been drinking Champagne first.

I think I can see where you're coming from.

We eat animals because that is what we do to live. When we kill animals for fun that is a no. As for killing vermin(I assume you are referring to foxes) and have been drinking champagne first, I do not see where you are coming from.

Please explain!

[MauriceMynah]

 

27 minutes ago, Upcycler said:

We eat animals because that is what we do to live. When we kill animals for fun that is a no. As for killing vermin(I assume you are referring to foxes) and have been drinking champagne first, I do not see where you are coming from.

Please explain!

Ok, fair question, and If I can't support it with, if not facts, but my opinions and observations, it would have been wrong of me to put a challenge to your post.

It has long been my opinion that the "anti blood sport lobby" has little care for the animals but much more a deep rooted objection to what they perceive as the "Upper classes".

Your post referred to  "hoo ray henry" and the "Type of people who think it's all part of a weekend to drink Champagne and chase foxes." 

This indicates to me that you consider "Country Sports" as being something enjoyed by the "toffs" and it's that which annoys you. 

It is my belief that since the ban on fox hunting, the fox population has grown out of control. This I further believe is not a good thing.

That those people dressed in red, drinking sherry from stirrup cups astride their horses had a bob or two more than me, is undoubtedly  true, but I also accept that they helped keep the fox population under some control. This I feel was a good thing.

Now I come to Pheasant shooting. I quite like eating pheasant and occasionally eat it. This pleasure I would not be able to enjoy if said birds were not reared and released to the guns.

Now, we all know that Griff off Broad Ambition is as rich as Crassus, he must be, He goes shooting, but I don't hold that against him, I would thank him for supplying the meat I occasionally get to enjoy.

It is also a delight to see a cock pheasant on a lightly snowed field., Yes, they feed the guns, but they also feed various predators.

Birds are not the only creatures bred by man for a sporting death, the rainbow trout is another. I enjoy fishing for them, I enjoy eating them. The farmed version available in supermarkets are not even close in flavour or texture to a good rod caught fish.... which has me thinking ... The league against cruel sports seems very reticent to attack angling, but that one's for another day.

If I have you wrong, and that your points raised were not based on the types of people perceived enjoying them, then my reply was perhaps badly aimed, if not... well... over to you.! 

 

[floydraser]

When I was as rich as Crassus (no I didn't have to google him, honest.) I was invited on a local fox shoot. This was because the local hunt wasn't effective enough and a pig farmer was losing too many piglets to foxes who kill for fun. I expected to see a bit of blood but not a freshly skinned piglet.

Foxes are a godsend though if you are looking to photograph a cute animal in fresh snow, for a calendar or Christmas card.

[Upcycler]

59 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

 

 well... over to you.! 

 

For many a millennium it has been know than man will kill animal, eat animal for survival as that what I believe has been bred through mankind to survive. People who choose to go vegetarian I don't always believe to be a good thing, as I think as humans we need a reasonably good diet of meat to survive. Those who kill animals for sport and leave them behind for nature to take its course, that is just barbaric.

Just because some animals interfere in our way of life, grabbing livestock that we would normally eat, or eating food that we carelessly dump outside our backdoor, we refer to them as vermin. I'm sure they would consider us as no different.

[Vaughan]

As the OP, perhaps I could remind us that I was concerned about cruelty to the Norfolk countryside, rather than the animals!  My point is that the "green and pleasant land" that we enjoy around us is maintained in that condition because it is used for hunting and shooting as well as growing arable crops.  We are losing enough of our farmland to housing, as it is!

I also didn't mention that the maintenance of all those woods, spinneys, copses, hedges and field headlands gives a haven for an abundance of all sorts of other wildlife and plant life.  Whether you like it or not, it is as beautiful as it is, because of hunting and especially game shooting.

I grew up going out on shoots with my father, as a beater and no, they are not all toffs, by any means.  They are local country people who enjoy a good day out in the fields together. Quite a lot of them are boatbuilders!  Could I also mention that, unlike coarse fishermen, they eat what they catch.

Talking of eating, game shooting is already under serious threat from hygiene regulations.  You can't just sell the day's "bag" to the butcher any more.  It is not accepted unless it is properly processed and refrigerated within a very short time of killing and its source has to be documented in detail.  This is why you will so rarely see pheasant or partridge on a restaurant menu, as the farmer can't sell them any more.  In the old days, the "guns" on a syndicate shoot would be given a brace of birds each to take home.  The rest of the bag was for the farmer to sell.  Not any more.

I also did a fair bit of hunting as a boy, and I was "blooded" with the Dunston Harriers when I was 10 years old.  Hunting is a bit more of a country gentry's "pursuit", as you normally don't catch anything!  The fox is too clever and the old brown hare is far too fast and agile!  It does have its big effect on the countryside though, as the land has to be maintained specially, for hunting across it.  On a shoot, hare is game, and most farmers allow foxes to be shot when they are seen.  Fox hunting doesn't actually keep down foxes, in reality. 

As I see it, if you love our English countryside as much as I do, you have to appreciate why it is the way it is and why it has to be managed.

Rather like the Broads, in fact!

 

[trambo]

10 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

In the old days, the "guns" on a syndicate shoot would be given a brace of birds each to take home.

 

Owners of Blue Mist, Evening Shadow, Goosander, Moonlight Shadow, Ranworth Breeze, Silver Cloud and Southern Crusader BEWARE.