Look Out Norfolk, Chris Packham Is Back Again!

[rightsaidfred]

8 minutes ago, Wussername said:

I note that the Red Kite seems to have entered the frame all of a sudden. Why? It is a scavenger. Only two years ago two non breeding pairs at Strumpshaw. Have things changed.

The decline of birds and other wild life needs to be looked at far closer. 

An in-depth study, which takes into account all relevant factors, not just those that happen to be convenient.

Andrew

Andrew

Red Kite are now becoming a serious problem in some parts of the country not just Norfolk its just another example of man knowing better than nature.

Some may recall that there was an issue a number of years ago at Pensthorpe with Pike decimating the young of Waterfowl, the problem was of their own making, instead of leaving nature to its own devices they culled a number of the large Pike who controlled the population of small Jacks by predation this resulted in an explosion of small Jacks who exploited the available food source ie young chicks.

Fred

[Wussername]

Fred. Whereabouts have the Red Kite caused a serious problem. And what specific problem have they caused. The last time I was in Dumfries and Galloway, an area with a large population of this raptor I found no instance of problems. 

Does Norfolk have a problem?

Andrew

[rightsaidfred]

26 minutes ago, Wussername said:

Fred. Whereabouts have the Red Kite caused a serious problem. And what specific problem have they caused. The last time I was in Dumfries and Galloway, an area with a large population of this raptor I found no instance of problems. 

Does Norfolk have a problem?

Andrew

No Norfolk dosnt yet but they have become a pest in the Chilterns area to the extent the local conservation group has appealed for people to stop encouraging them, like all species at the top of the food  chain otters included they can soon reach pest proportions if their numbers are not controlled.

Fred

[Wussername]

Hi Fred

I understand what you are saying. But what specific problem are these raptors causing.

Likewise the otter in Norfolk is now the villain of the piece. In what respect. Vaughan tells me the mallard is in decline, together with the coot. (Last February I counted a raft of 200 on Malthouse)

I live in a house surrounded by fields on the border of the village of Lingwood and Strumpshaw, for about 35 years. When I first came here, taking the dogs down the road in the morning I was greeted by sky lark soaring above the fields, yellow hammer, yellow wagtail, pied wagtail, chaffinch, lapwing, swallow, swift, song thrush, I could go on, today, this last year. Nothing. A deserted wood, an agricultural desert devoid of life.

The Red kite, the otter. No.

It was you. It was me. It was all of you.

Just look around and see how we have used and abused that which we were the custodian for future generations, but don't worry we will not be here to be held account.

Only remembered.

Andrew

 

 

[marshman]

I believe you are all forgetting the impact of climate change - just as we have gained new species, we have lost others.  Coots are a classic example as they used to turn up in their hundreds in the winter purely because their home waters in the Low Countries were frozen over. I agree you don't see so many now but go to Hickling in the winter, and its not uncommon to see flocks of several hundred.

Moorhen too seem to have forsaken the rivers for farmers ponds - almost every pond around mine has a pair happily clucking away. Conversely I see a lot of Great Crested Grebe around - 60 years ago they were a rarity.

Its easy to point fingers at otters and perhaps raptors too but why for example are buzzards doing so well - even 10 years ago you hardly saw them.

Nature has many mysteries but some smaller birds, especially field birds are in rapid decline, but that does not seem to be the case currently for chaffinches, green finches and gold finches - my garden relatively close by has an abundance even at this current time of year.

It is very variable and some years are especially difficult for finches who seem to suffer badly from disease only to recover over a relatively short time.

I wish I knew all the answers but too many raptors and the otter are blamed needlessly IMHO                          

[Wussername]

8 minutes ago, marshman said:

I believe you are all forgetting the impact of climate change - just as we have gained new species, we have lost others.  Coots are a classic example as they used to turn up in their hundreds in the winter purely because their home waters in the Low Countries were frozen over. I agree you don't see so many now but go to Hickling in the winter, and its not uncommon to see flocks of several hundred.

Moorhen too seem to have forsaken the rivers for farmers ponds - almost every pond around mine has a pair happily clucking away. Conversely I see a lot of Great Crested Grebe around - 60 years ago they were a rarity.

Its easy to point fingers at otters and perhaps raptors too but why for example are buzzards doing so well - even 10 years ago you hardly saw them.

Nature has many mysteries but some smaller birds, especially field birds are in rapid decline, but that does not seem to be the case currently for chaffinches, green finches and gold finches - my garden relatively close by has an abundance even at this current time of year.

It is very variable and some years are especially difficult for finches who seem to suffer badly from disease only to recover over a relatively short time.

I wish I knew all the answers but too many raptors and the otter are blamed needlessly IMHO                          

Four buzzards over my garden yesterday, calling to each other. Soaring on the thermals, I thought that it was one buzzard at first being mobbed by seagulls, but not so. A marsh harrier visits every evening, swooping over the garden. 

On the down side rooks used to fly over for an hour, at dusk, to the woods at Buckenham, a magnificent spectacle. Sadly no longer. 

Long tailed tits, in my garden in abundance, Jackdaws, (in my neighbour's chimney, best of luck there) collard doves, but no turtle doves regretfully. Blue tits, Great tits, but no Bearded. Too far from Strumpshaw fen I suspect, if indeed any there.

But in general a serious decline of bird life and insect life.

The latter a matter of concern.

I pray the farmer will not spray. But he will, on the day.

Andrew

[Oddfellow]

11 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

.... like all species at the top of the food  chain otters included they can soon reach pest proportions if their numbers are not controlled.

Fred

Like humans? 

[Oddfellow]

10 hours ago, Wussername said:

Hi Fred

I understand what you are saying. But what specific problem are these raptors causing.

Likewise the otter in Norfolk is now the villain of the piece. In what respect. Vaughan tells me the mallard is in decline, together with the coot. (Last February I counted a raft of 200 on Malthouse)

I live in a house surrounded by fields on the border of the village of Lingwood and Strumpshaw, for about 35 years. When I first came here, taking the dogs down the road in the morning I was greeted by sky lark soaring above the fields, yellow hammer, yellow wagtail, pied wagtail, chaffinch, lapwing, swallow, swift, song thrush, I could go on, today, this last year. Nothing. A deserted wood, an agricultural desert devoid of life.

The Red kite, the otter. No.

It was you. It was me. It was all of you.

Just look around and see how we have used and abused that which we were the custodian for future generations, but don't worry we will not be here to be held account.

Only remembered.

Andrew

 

 

And hence the need for "eco warriors" like Chris Packham to keep the heat up. All this loss has been driven by our short term gain that we're absolutely addicted to. We hear it daily: there must be growth in the economy. Why? because we have to keep up with other economies. But why? Growth over the last 250 years has been at the cost of the environment and now it's payback time but the interest rate is small right now but ramping up. 

The improvements made in the name of our comfort will result in certain death for many. We will die of having no water to drink or so much water we need gills. Some will die in wild fires, ravaging the lansdcape and killing the biodiversity in a heartbeat. 

It's time the human race said that enough is enough. Balance is what I keep reading. Is this about working out an acceptable loss? Perhaps, but let's be clear, few people that use the word "balance" will use it with the intention of accepting personal loss of their lifestyle to obtain that balance. Most of us are on this planet for a no more than 75 years and a good few here are well into that. Much of this dosen't matter to us personally. It matters to our children and our children's children and our children's children's children, but not so much to US. But it's US that have helped to cause this and it's a mess that is for THEM to clear up. BUT, in the main, it is THEM who are the "Eco Warriors" who are having to sort things out and because thy threaten the comfort of the scant few years WE have left, THEY are the problem 

Is that a decent enough analysis of BALANCE?

 

[rightsaidfred]

10 hours ago, Wussername said:

Four buzzards over my garden yesterday, calling to each other. Soaring on the thermals, I thought that it was one buzzard at first being mobbed by seagulls, but not so. A marsh harrier visits every evening, swooping over the garden. 

On the down side rooks used to fly over for an hour, at dusk, to the woods at Buckenham, a magnificent spectacle. Sadly no longer. 

Long tailed tits, in my garden in abundance, Jackdaws, (in my neighbour's chimney, best of luck there) collard doves, but no turtle doves regretfully. Blue tits, Great tits, but no Bearded. Too far from Strumpshaw fen I suspect, if indeed any there.

But in general a serious decline of bird life and insect life.

The latter a matter of concern.

I pray the farmer will not spray. But he will, on the day.

Andrew

Species come and species decline, you say you have no Rooks here where I am in London we now have a colony when we have never had Rooks in the past, the same goes for other species.

Just for clarity I am not blaming Otters, Red Kites or any other species  just our meddling, Otters have never been extinct in Norfolk or other parts of the country but it is our interference that is responsible for their proliferation now and in nature every action has a reaction, one species success often results in the decline of another be that Birds, Mammals, Fish or various sub species.

One area of concern seems to be around migratory species, now here is a thought to which I have no clue to its impact, I think it is generally accepted that the earths magnetic field is one way they navigate, that being so on top of the natural affect of climate change how much has the proliferation of mobile phone masts etc been a factor in interfering with migratory patterns, just a thought.

All forms of life have evolved over the Millenia some species successfully and prosper others fail and become extinct that will always be the case but yes the human race has in recent decades short circuited the process which has resulted in a rapid decline in some species and it is something we need to tackle, the problem there is that the biggest reason is in answer to Oddfellow the human race is vastly overpopulated, the million dollar question is how do we redress that ethically.

Fred

 

[MauriceMynah]

1 hour ago, Oddfellow said:

Is that a decent enough analysis of BALANCE?

No, not really. You say it's our fault and our kids (plus their kids etc. etc.) will have to clar it all up. You do not mention the previous generations and their responsibility.

Some have the view that "Eco warriors" are a bunch of long haired tree hugging pinko's. Others see them as heroes fighting on behalf of civilised society to redress the destruction caused by politicians feeding at the trough.

However and I put this to all readers...

How would you feel and react if a political party with which you were totally against put forwards a manifesto that was both against your fundemental economy mantras, yet held great promise for action on global issues?

There are many in sociey who will let their political beliefs override their view on what has become known as the "Bigger picture". 

[batrabill]

We’re not vastly overpopulated.  
 

The 2019 forecast from the United Nation's Population Division (made before the COVID-19 pandemic) shows that world population growth peaked at 2.1% per year in 1968, has since dropped to 1.1%, and could drop even further to 0.1% by 2100, a growth rate not seen since pre-industrial revolution days.[95] Based on this, the UN Population Division expects the world population, which is at 7.8 billion as of 2020, to level out around 2100 at 10.9 billion (the median line),[96][97]assuming a continuing decrease in the global average fertility rate from 2.5 births per woman during the 2015–2020 period to 1.9 in 2095–2100, according to the medium-variant projection.[98]

[Oddfellow]

4 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:

No, not really. You say it's our fault and our kids (plus their kids etc. etc.) will have to clar it all up. You do not mention the previous generations and their responsibility.

Some have the view that "Eco warriors" are a bunch of long haired tree hugging pinko's. Others see them as heroes fighting on behalf of civilised society to redress the destruction caused by politicians feeding at the trough.

However and I put this to all readers...

How would you feel and react if a political party with which you were totally against put forwards a manifesto that was both against your fundemental economy mantras, yet held great promise for action on global issues?

There are many in sociey who will let their political beliefs override their view on what has become known as the "Bigger picture". 

Absolutely not. But, there's one overriding thing linked to politics that prevents trust in policy announcements and that's past lies. The current government has the ability to drive home virtually any policy as it has a massive majority. The only policies it's really perusing though are ones that benefit it and it's kind. We keep hearing words that are intended to prick the ears, but we see no substance. If it wants people to trust what it says, it needs to give reason for people to trust what it says. 

No, I didn't mention past generations. The key reason for that is that those generations are dead already and their mess was left for us to clear up. We didn't. We made it worse. Though ignorance and arrogance. 

 

[Oddfellow]

24 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

....the problem there is that the biggest reason is in answer to Oddfellow the human race is vastly overpopulated, the million dollar question is how do we redress that ethically.

Fred

 

You can cull people via the back door by unleashing a potentially deadly virus that spreads around the world and having governments implement "herd immunity" also via the back door. That's got rid of a good few. You can have wars, they're ethical when you're on the winning side. 

But, I don't think we're over populated. I think we're over arrogant and selfish to our immediate needs whist ignoring the needs of the planet that sustains us.

We have been biting the hand that feeds us for far too long. 

[MauriceMynah]

5 minutes ago, Oddfellow said:

The only policies it's really perusing though are ones that benefit it and it's kind. We keep hearing words that are intended to prick the ears, but we see no substance. If it wants people to trust what it says, it needs to give reason for people to trust what it says. 

I am trying to avoid "party politics" here as per ToS but in essence I would say that the part of your post I've quoted applies to all the mainstream parties, and has done for many years.

[rightsaidfred]

42 minutes ago, batrabill said:

We’re not vastly overpopulated.  
 

The 2019 forecast from the United Nation's Population Division (made before the COVID-19 pandemic) shows that world population growth peaked at 2.1% per year in 1968, has since dropped to 1.1%, and could drop even further to 0.1% by 2100, a growth rate not seen since pre-industrial revolution days.[95] Based on this, the UN Population Division expects the world population, which is at 7.8 billion as of 2020, to level out around 2100 at 10.9 billion (the median line),[96][97]assuming a continuing decrease in the global average fertility rate from 2.5 births per woman during the 2015–2020 period to 1.9 in 2095–2100, according to the medium-variant projection.[98]

And that is where academia and politics fall down, overpopulation is about sustainability not statistics, millions are dying or living in poverty in various country's because the area cannot support the population, in this country we are destroying habitats by building  more and more housing in unsuitable areas because of a constantly increasing population, nature controls population with disease, famine and drought etc we have circumvented a large part of that creating a population level that the planet doesn't have the resources to sustain without harmful consequences.

Fred

[Paul]

15 hours ago, Wussername said:

I understand what you are saying. But what specific problem are these raptors causing.

Have you tried googling? It's quick and easy and will enlighten you fully. Even the NT website now carries a warning about them. We have a big issue with them at our local country park, they are like seagulls on steroids and seem to have no fear of people. 

[batrabill]

Is it Red Kites knicking people’s chips? 
 

Not really a real problem is it ?

[rightsaidfred]

10 minutes ago, batrabill said:

Is it Red Kites knicking people’s chips? 
 

Not really a real problem is it ?

Nothing is a problem if its someone else's and doesn't affect you 

Fred

[Wussername]

1 hour ago, Paul said:

Have you tried googling? It's quick and easy and will enlighten you fully. Even the NT website now carries a warning about them. We have a big issue with them at our local country park, they are like seagulls on steroids and seem to have no fear of people. 

As suggested I googled “problem with red kites”

Red kite attacks: why birds of prey are causing havoc on the streets of Henley, as quoted from the Guardian.

Once close to extinction, the red kite population of Oxfordshire is now in fine fettle, with birds reportedly preying upon local residents and stealing sausage rolls. 

Having consulted my ornithological friends they have advised the local residents to hide the said sausage rolls.

I really do not think that there is a problem.

Andrew

 

[Wussername]

42 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Nothing is a problem if its someone else's and doesn't affect you 

Fred

If anything people have brought it on themselves. If you feed them, as people have been doing, they will come back for more and will show signs of aggression in some instances. Stop feeding them there is plenty of food to sustain them in the wild.

Andrew

[batrabill]

1 hour ago, Wussername said:

If anything people have brought it on themselves. If you feed them, as people have been doing, they will come back for more and will show signs of aggression in some instances. Stop feeding them there is plenty of food to sustain them in the wild.

Andrew

So Red Kites are doing what seagulls do every day on every beach in the land. 
 

Will no one think of the children!

[rightsaidfred]

So now we have a conundrum,  on one hand according to Chris Packham and others we have a serious problem with mankind upsetting the balance of nature, but on the other hand its fine for mankind to upset the balance of nature by allowing or encouraging some species to reach pest levels either by releasing or protection.

It took some time for people to wake up to the problems and damage caused by Mink and Coypu and Grey squirrels and yes I know they are not native but the principal is the same when a species becomes to dominant.

Fred   

[Vaughan]

7 hours ago, Oddfellow said:

You can cull people via the back door by unleashing a potentially deadly virus that spreads around the world and having governments implement "herd immunity" also via the back door. That's got rid of a good few. You can have wars, they're ethical when you're on the winning side. 

But, I don't think we're over populated. I think we're over arrogant and selfish to our immediate needs whist ignoring the needs of the planet that sustains us.

We have been biting the hand that feeds us for far too long. 

I can't argue with that!

But you did ask, "what is the problem with Chris Packham".  As the OP, I think I have a right of reply, although this has now got on to global matters, far removed from the Norfolk Broads!

I mentioned my father, and PW's father and their involvement in the Broads Study and Plan, along with Ted Ellis (far more famous than Packham) and Dr Martin George, but there were many others, who had the Broads at heart, and who worked in those days, to make it into what we now know and love.

For instance :

Lady Mayhew, of Somerleyton Hall.  Lady Trafford, whose family own Wroxham Broad.  Bryan Read, Martin Broom, Desmond Truman, Standley Bushell, Jimmy Hipwell (ex High Sheriff of Norwich), Humphrey Boardman (of How Hill), Ian Mackintosh (of Rountree Mackintosh).  These are just a few, from memory.  Several of these men and women, whom I knew personally, were River Commissioners and they were all naturalists, who made great efforts to preserve the "eco system" of the Broads.

A special mention for Andrew Lees, of Friends of The Earth.  A very genuine and passionate young man, who became a good friend of mine.  I met him during the dispute about an Anglia TV film called "No Lullaby for Broadland" and a few years later, with a bit of a "leg up" from myself and Standley Bushell, he successfully prevented the new BA from allowing the deep dyke drainage (and thus, destruction) of the Halvergate Marshes.  If it were not for him, it would now just be a vast expanse of oil-seed rape.  I tell you now, Chris Packham couldn't "hold a candle" to Andrew Lees.

And also Keith  McDougall, a Norfolk farmer from Catield Hall, who I knew when he was chairman of the Broads Society.  He was also chairman of the Norfolk Naturalist's Trust and the How Hill Trust.  If you have not read his book "Middle Marsh" I can highly recommend it.

 

 

I think I can do no better than to quote Keith McDougall, from the last chapter of his book, written in 1991 :

It could be dangerous to oversimplify.  Human beings are complex creatures, un-naturally exposed to the so-called benefits of instant communications, and programmed by the media to respond, not to instinct, but to a specious set of twentieth century values.

 

[Oddfellow]

31 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I can't argue with that!

But you did ask, "what is the problem with Chris Packham".  As the OP, I think I have a right of reply, although this has now got on to global matters, far removed from the Norfolk Broads!

I mentioned my father, and PW's father and their involvement in the Broads Study and Plan, along with Ted Ellis (far more famous than Packham) and Dr Martin George, but there were many others, who had the Broads at heart, and who worked in those days, to make it into what we now know and love.

For instance :

Lady Mayhew, of Somerleyton Hall.  Lady Trafford, whose family own Wroxham Broad.  Bryan Read, Martin Broom, Desmond Truman, Standley Bushell, Jimmy Hipwell (ex High Sheriff of Norwich), Humphrey Boardman (of How Hill), Ian Mackintosh (of Rountree Mackintosh).  These are just a few, from memory.  Several of these men and women, whom I knew personally, were River Commissioners and they were all naturalists, who made great efforts to preserve the "eco system" of the Broads.

A special mention for Andrew Lees, of Friends of The Earth.  A very genuine and passionate young man, who became a good friend of mine.  I met him during the dispute about an Anglia TV film called "No Lullaby for Broadland" and a few years later, with a bit of a "leg up" from myself and Standley Bushell, he successfully prevented the new BA from allowing the deep dyke drainage (and thus, destruction) of the Halvergate Marshes.  If it were not for him, it would now just be a vast expanse of oil-seed rape.  I tell you now, Chris Packham couldn't "hold a candle" to Andrew Lees.

And also Keith  McDougall, a Norfolk farmer from Catield Hall, who I knew when he was chairman of the Broads Society.  He was also chairman of the Norfolk Naturalist's Trust and the How Hill Trust.  If you have not read his book "Middle Marsh" I can highly recommend it.

 

 

I think I can do no better than to quote Keith McDougall, from the last chapter of his book, written in 1991 :

It could be dangerous to oversimplify.  Human beings are complex creatures, un-naturally exposed to the so-called benefits of instant communications, and programmed by the media to respond, not to instinct, but to a specious set of twentieth century values.

 

I wish to point out that my comments about Packham were not in relation to the Broads but the wider problem of the planet and our wanton destruction of things we don't like or that provide a bit of fun for the wealthy. Eco management is one thing and I am broadly in favour of this.  Blind ignorance and arrogance for self gratification or life-style  preservation is quite something else and Packham does a good job of bringing these issues to the pubic. I offer no comparision between him and anybody else, alive or dead. 

[rightsaidfred]

25 minutes ago, Oddfellow said:

I wish to point out that my comments about Packham were not in relation to the Broads but the wider problem of the planet and our wanton destruction of things we don't like or that provide a bit of fun for the wealthy. Eco management is one thing and I am broadly in favour of this.  Blind ignorance and arrogance for self gratification or life-style  preservation is quite something else and Packham does a good job of bringing these issues to the pubic. I offer no comparision between him and anybody else, alive or dead. 

Chris Packham along with his co hosts does a good job of presenting a programme that illustrates the beauty of nature to the general public which for many will be both educational and hopefully install a lifelong interest.

Where it goes wrong is that he along with numerous others keeps preaching the same old same old, its got to the point where you can't turn on the tv anymore without someone trying to tell us we are doomed, I don't deny that we could do things better but if we don't know the issues now we never will, its got to the stage now that a lot of people will switch of mentally out  of boredom the message has become stale and is losing its impact, it should be remembered less is often more.

Fred