Latest BA Advice On Covid Lockdown

[marshman]

Oh dear - someone  elsewhere has found something muddying the waters further - perhaps I will have to take all that back especially if they can find wriggle room as suggested!

Could we just get a statement saying what is what or should I just apologise in advance for letting off steam over those in Thorpe Towers???

 

[JennyMorgan]

6 minutes ago, marshman said:

Well well well - another classic case of the BA seemingly getting the total wrong end of the stick!!!!!

The above, probably, also their usual alacrity in grabbing any opportunity to stop boating.

It strikes me that once again the BA is exceeding its remit, as well as jumping the gun.

[Meantime]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

Interesting to read this from the government today saying we can go boating.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-phased-return-of-sport-and-recreation/guidance-for-the-public-on-the-phased-return-of-outdoor-sport-and-recreation

"All forms of water sports practised on open waterways, including sailing, windsurfing, canoeing, rowing, kayaking, surfing, paddle-boarding and the use of privately owned motorised craft (in line with the guidance issued by the relevant navigation authority) are allowed provided that the guidance on social distancing is observed.

You are allowed to visit venues like a sailing club to exercise. You should only do so alone or with 5 other people as long as you follow social distancing guidelines. You should check ahead to ensure that these facilities are open and prepared to receive visitors."

And the RYA has today received confirmation from Sport England that boating is permitted.

(from the RYA facebook page) 

"Sport England has today confirmed that boaters in England can continue to exercise on the waterways during the current lockdown, so long as you’re doing so:

🛶 on your own
🚤 with the people you live with (your household)
⛵ with your support bubble
🚣‍♀️ on your own and with one person from another household – this could be a coach for 1:1 coaching."

 

Whilst I don't believe marinas should be restricting access under the current lockdown, the answer doesn't lie in the quotes above, or the web page linked to. The bits that have been cherry picked are old advice relating to the easing of the first lockdown.

The page linked to was advice issued as we were coming out of the first lockdown. It has been updated on the 5th November to reflect some of the new restrictions. The over riding disclaimer near the top of that page is the following bit, "From Thursday 5 November, national restrictions supersede the contents of this guidance document, in particular where the document refers to Local COVID Alert Levels. This guidance document can still be used by those businesses which are permitted to operate under the national restrictions, to support those businesses to operate safely." 

In other words most of that advice is out of date and has been superseded by the new regs. A lot of that link refers to activity with up to 5 other people, which is the old rule of 6 which is very much out of date at present. Pretty much most of that page below the bit I have highlighted in bold and underlined is irrelevant and superseded by the new lock down bill.

[Meantime]

I would suggest the clearest appraisal of the current situation can be found here, even if it is still not 100% clear.

https://britishmarine.co.uk/News/2020/November/British-Marine-statement-What-the-Marine-Industry-should-know-as-England-starts-a-second-lockdown?fbclid=IwAR0sVTdGB0ZhwI41Hu9OJW3XuGxP8fXoTvRLtOG2AxpPMUT7H4QsRB6p0ow

Clearly marinas staff can continue to work at the marina as this is work that cannot be done from home.

Clearly boat sales and brokerage must close. This is similar to car sales forecourts.

Ambiguous, the BMF were informed by DEFRA that no sector specific guidance would be produced and it was down to individual businesses to interpret the high level government guidance, whilst at the same time issuing sector specific guidance that winterising or boat maintenance wouldn't be allowed!!!! 

Lastly "Marinas can remain open, however, no overnight stays are allowed on boats except for residential berth holders (where the boat is their primary residence) or for business purposes. Toilets and showers can remain open for site users. For the above reasons, access and access control systems may remain open however, marinas should remind their berth holders to adhere to Government rules for England requiring people to stay at home, except for specific purposes. A full TYHA statement can be found on the BM website here"

Which would seem to indicate that if berth holders were adhering to the government rules they should be allowed access to their boats. Reading all the above to the letter of the law, I would suggest that visiting your boat to work on it, or winterise it, is probably not allowed. However if you have a row boat, or sailing boat in a marina and you are reasonably local and can use that vessel for a form of exercise then I think the marina has no right in refusing or restricting your access. 

It is down to the individual to follow the rules and be prepared to justify if needed to the police the reason why they have travelled to their boat. It is NOT for marinas or more importantly marina owners to act as surrogate police enforcement and restrict access over and above that required by the law. Marina owners need to learn a lesson from all this. Pubs were put in the position of being the second police force and it was made plain that all they would and could do, was advise the public of the publics obligations. Public houses made it plain they have no right of police enforcement. They could not ask for proof of address or question anybody about their personal relationships. If someone stated they lived in the same household, or were in a support bubble they couldn't dispute that, they were not the police, but they had a duty to remind the public of the regulations in force at that time. That should be as far as the remit of marinas should go. They are not there to enforce the law, and should not be acting on behalf of the police force. They should continue to work if they wish to do so and they should continue to remind their customers of the current guidance, but they should not be restricting access for boat owners.

 

[Cheesey69]

Who said it was going to end in December?

My police DOT covid pass runs out end of January 

Official statements littered with, we hope, intended to, could do. 
The law says it must be re looked at after 4 weeks and can be reinstated again in 4 week sections

could be a long winter for the boats 

[ExSurveyor]

The law says it is time limited to 2nd of December, a further lockdown would have to be voted on in Parliament.

[grendel]

To be fair on the BA they are / were in a no win situation, with everyone clamouring for a statement telling them what they could or couldnt do, in as short a time as possible, now we have expansion of the details filtering down, that may suggest some of the interpretations by the BA with the knowledge they had at the time, might have been a bit over the top, all those people who clamoured for a statement 'now' are complaining that the BA made mistakes.

If you try and rush anything through, mistakes are going to happen, its how you handle the aftermath and re-issue an updated correct statement that matters, and even then, for some if it says something they dont want to hear, you will still get the complaints.

The government advises that non essential travel is not allowed, I am working from home mostly, yet still as I am a key worker in an infrastructure supply industry, i have been issued with a letter to cover any travel i need to do for work.

if you are stopped and questioned while travelling to your boat, I hope you have an explanation that satisfies the questioner.

we all need to stop and ask ourselves if the journey we need to make is essential, for the second day i see frost on the grass outside, but have the temperatures dropped low enough for boaters to be concerned yet, I am sure that if we get a cold spell forecast, then winterisation will be deemed a necessary excuse for travel, in the mean time consider that those boatyards that are still open will need work for their staff, and winterising peoples boats for them could be the difference between keeping staff on  and surviving to next year, or not.

[Vaughan]

The yard where I moor was open for maintenance all through the last lockdown and I assume will be this time as well. I had intended to ask them to winterise at the end of November but may do it earlier now, as my daughter can't use the boat anymore.

In my experience, a bit of frost on the grass is no problem. The temperature has to be well below freezing for several days and nights running before it will do damage in the boat. Boats stored ashore will be more vulnerable to frost damage.

[NorfolkNog]

 

 

[Bytheriver]

Maybe we should remember the government were bounced into announcing the Lockdown on Saturday due to leaked information rather than Monday, all whilst most civil servants were off duty at the weekend that gave boat owners a head start at wanting the finer details so the system had to play catch up & with different ministries involved I suspect that is not always as easy as it sounds, especially with there still ,despite pledges by ministers, frequent re-shuffles of government staff especially those responsible for signing off announcements (we are told one of the reasons for the delay in publication of the Landscape Review White Paper is due to the change in senior officials in DEFRA)

Maybe that leaves some wriggle room too 😊

[JennyMorgan]

17 minutes ago, Bytheriver said:

(we are told one of the reasons for the delay in publication of the Landscape Review White Paper is due to the change in senior officials in DEFRA)

People don't seem to stay very long at DEFRA! 

[Bytheriver]

15 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

People don't seem to stay very long at DEFRA! 

A number of ministers in the May era promised that the constant changes in staff caused by the end of the incremental pay system meaning people had to apply for new jobs to get a pay increase following up-skilling or wanting to move up the ladder was to end but this seems forgotten & I do wonder if Covid/working from home or other linked factors may have not helped. It must be quite difficult not to just be able to turn round or go to the next office to bounce ideas around, or just update something.

I found it bad enough when my manager went on 6 months sick leave just at the start of a new contract & though he was contactable (with a knee problem) it was not ideal as I had not been in many of the negotiations & there was a particularly difficult client officer  (who had been a colleague just a month earlier)

[Meantime]

2 hours ago, grendel said:

The government advises that non essential travel is not allowed, I am working from home mostly, yet still as I am a key worker in an infrastructure supply industry, i have been issued with a letter to cover any travel i need to do for work.

if you are stopped and questioned while travelling to your boat, I hope you have an explanation that satisfies the questioner.

All of which are valid comments, but I repeat, it is not for the marina owner to police this, but for the police to do so.

We have the crazy situation where you could live 15mins walk from your boat which is locked in a marina and the marina is stopping you from accessing your boat. However legally you could find a suitable spot, launch a canoe or row boat and paddle or row along the river. During the course of your exercise you could paddle into your marina and up to your boat, moor along side and get out onto your boat. You could then enter your boat and retrieve your fishing rod and legally sit on the front of your boat and fish for a few hours, whilst occasionally using the facilities to make a warm drink or use the toilet. You could then lock your boat up and canoe or row back to your launch point and go home. You will not have broken the law, but the marina who you have paid money to for a service have things more difficult for you.

There are very big issues with marinas acting as enforcement agencies, especially when they are prone to bending the rules themselves. The marina where I moor requires access via a swipe card system. They have announced that all swipe card access has been disabled, but has it.? Based upon feedback from the previous lockdown cards were disabled for all those berth holders who do not live on their boats. So is the marina illegally locking in those berth holders who unofficially are living aboard. I simply cannot believe that would be the case, which means they are picking and choosing which of their paying customers they are choosing to restrict access to. A very dubious business practice is that!.

I wouldn't expect or support the marina taking any action to prevent access for those who are living aboard, even if it is unofficially, and I wouldn't expect the marina to break any laws of the land, but equally I do not expect  a marina to prevent access when they are not required to do so by law to any of their customers. The marina in question also have a boat sales area which must be closed by law, but it just so happens that they have two access gates. One for berth holders and one for general members of the public to the boat sales office. The gate for berth holders is controlled by an access card, so even that is no excuse for restricting access.

[JennyMorgan]

12 minutes ago, Meantime said:

All of which are valid comments, but I repeat, it is not for the marina owner to police this, but for the police to do so.

The same can be said of the Broads Authority.

Sound advice is what people want, nothing more. 

[grendel]

to be fair i was only commenting on the BA's position, not on the actions taken by the marina, they probably reacted to the BA statement in turn, which means if the BA changes its statement, then the marina may reconsider their stance in turn.

[Bytheriver]

The "Boat" industry is certainly not the only one where the initial announcement brought gloom & doom - I was just talking to an ex colleague who works in a privately owned garden open to the public who's owner assumed that under the classification that Botanic Gardens would have to close(Monday) by Tuesday it turned out that only the glasshouses would have to close (Pressure from Kew Gardens maybe)?

 

 

[grendel]

Surely though the matter of Marinas closing should rightly be brought up with those marinas, as no matter how hard we all try we cant change anything, only the Marinas can change the state of play, as no matter what we agree on here, they are the ones holding the keys.

[ExSurveyor]

Perhaps marinas are closed to protect their staff who are still working, they have a duty of care to staff.

How many people actually winterise boats before December any other year.

[Smoggy]

Why are people so desperate for the ba to release a statement anyway, they are not making the rules and are not the police, surely the government's statement is THE statement and not for ba to "interpret " anyway.

[grendel]

7 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

Why are people so desperate for the ba to release a statement anyway, they are not making the rules and are not the police, surely the government's statement is THE statement and not for ba to "interpret " anyway.

thats simple, they want to know the rules so that they can think up devious ploys to get riound them that mean they can ignore the government restrictions.

[JennyMorgan]

21 minutes ago, psychicsurveyor said:

How many people actually winterise boats before December any other year.

Quite a few that I know! Their season ends, like the BA's yacht stations, at the end of October. Their boats are either slipped and into storage, or winterised, during November before the first heavy frosts come. This is especially so where varnish work is concerned.

[grendel]

1 minute ago, JennyMorgan said:

Quite a few that I know! Their season ends, like the BA's yacht stations, at the end of October. Their boats are either slipped and into storage, or winterised, during November before the first heavy frosts come. This is especially so where varnish work is concerned.

by the sound of that the work is done by the yard, so nothing stopping that going ahead as normal surely

[Poppy]

4 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Quite a few that I know! Their season ends, like the BA's yacht stations, at the end of October. Their boats are either slipped and into storage, or winterised, during November before the first heavy frosts come. This is especially so where varnish work is concerned.

Most Broads yachts come out around now  - even in a 'normal' year.  For me and probably a number of others my insurance requires the boat to be ashore from mid November until March.

[Meantime]

31 minutes ago, psychicsurveyor said:

Perhaps marinas are closed to protect their staff who are still working, they have a duty of care to staff.

How many people actually winterise boats before December any other year.

Perhaps the supermarkets should also close to protect their staff, or the recycling centres which have been told to stay open this time around, or the banks etc etc.

Marina staff largely work in the open air, or in the workshops where you could restrict public access.

[CambridgeCabby]

During the last relaxing of lockdown , which permitted day trips but no overnighting, Broadsedge  insisted all Boats were back in the marina by 16:30 and that the gates were locked after that time , his current action should come as no surprise , the offer of winterisation at a reduced cost for those moored there is IMHO a positive move on their part and those moored there unable to make the journey due to government legislation (depending on how one interprets the current rules) can take advantage of that and know their boat is at least protected .

I haven’t asked Richardson’s as to access to their marina but presume it is the same as last lock down when we were informed the marina is closed to all but their staff , so Broadsedge are no different to other marinas in their actions