Considering Joining A Syndicate At Some Point

[ranworthbreeze]

1 hour ago, Mouldy said:

Not just that BOAT!!  The term applies to any boat . . . . . . . . . . Bring Out Another Thousand!!  😉

I thought the saying was "Bung on another Thousand"

[Mouldy]

50 minutes ago, ranworthbreeze said:

I thought the saying was "Bung on another Thousand"

I think that applies to a certain boatyard who, for the sake of the TOS, will remain nameless!!

[ranworthbreeze]

We currently have a Standard Share for sale on Ranworth Breeze.

The allocation dates for 2022 are 24/05/2022 & 18/10/2022 and the allocation dates for 2023 are 06/06/2023 & 24/10/2023.

The price is £4100.00 with the management fees paid by the selling owners.

If anyone requires any further information please contact me.

Regards

Alan

[Matt]

I am going to suggest MS’ new engine is in!

Broom Facebook

 

[Mouldy]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

I am going to suggest MS’ new engine is in!

Broom Facebook

 

Certainly is.  Brooms have suggested that a larger prop may be required to bring the engine revs down as they believe it’s sitting around 100rpm too high for a given speed, but to try it and see how we get on.  At least it’s not 2000rpm at 5mph!!

No mention of a different pitch or a for bladed though.  Before diving in, I think we need to get the optimum size calculated properly.

[Matt]

51 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

Certainly is.  Brooms have suggested that a larger prop may be required to bring the engine revs down as they believe it’s sitting around 100rpm too high for a given speed, but to try it and see how we get on.  At least it’s not 2000rpm at 5mph!!

No mention of a different pitch or a for bladed though.  Before diving in, I think we need to get the optimum size calculated properly.

Good luck getting it calculated properly- too many cooks and all that 😃 might just as well ask @oldgregg who called ours pretty early!

Did you leave the gearbox untouched?

[Mouldy]

13 minutes ago, Matt said:

Good luck getting it calculated properly- too many cooks and all that 😃 might just as well ask @oldgregg who called ours pretty early!

Did you leave the gearbox untouched?

The original gearbox, but it was reconditioned.

[BroadAmbition]

tops out around 2800rpm these days.

Better but still too high for the shaft, plus the donk is not under enough load when cruising, leads to premature engine wear and glazing not to mention taking much longer getting up to correct operating temperature if it ever will during cold winter months, then there is the issue of the domestic water taking an age to get piping hot, again if it ever does

Griff

[Smoggy]

I had my props tweaked by clements at little staughton and Paul's calculation was spot on, I told him the boat model and engines/gearboxes and he told what would have been on from new and recommended a slight re-pitch while he was refurbing them, max revs to 3900rpm as volvo spec and the 21-22 knots he predicted.

Refurb and re-pitch was a much shorter lead time than new props and a fraction of the cash, the foundry was where the holdup was, he only had them a week.

 

[NeilB]

I was going to suggest a prop refurb would be cheaper and quicker but Smoggy was faster, if the RPM is only out by a small amount the pitch can often be tweaked.

The engine should reach the manufacturers max rated RPM with the vessel at full load, or as close as possible.  The Nanni has a rated speed of 2800rpm but they may also have a prop selection speed range which could be something like 2600rpm to 2800rpm.  Peachments will know for sure.

 

[BroadAmbition]

NeilB - agree with that (Mostly) I prefer Broads boats on shaft drive to be slightly over-propped so just below max revs achieved but that is just my own preference - Keeps the donk under load, operating temperatures reached quicker and the domestic hot water gets hot quicker too even on short slow cruises in the dead of winter when the river water temperatures are way down

What is not really up for debate is that the shaft speed should not be exceeding 1300 rpm unless direct water cooled of course

Griff

[NeilB]

Slightly under max revs is not an issue on a Broads boat as there's usually a range of RPM the manufacturer will accept, plus it's very rarely going to be run at full chat anyway.

High speed vessels are a little different as they are more susceptible to weight and trim changes plus the builders want to squeeze every last 1/2 knot out of them.  We even strap water bladders to the bathing platforms to simulate a tender and the amount of weight an owner adds, plus I add another 100KG when I step on board.  

The other option to water cooling on a traditional stern gland is to fit a rubber shaft seal type, all they need is a smear of grease every 200 hrs / once per year and then they should not leak at all.

I couldn't find the max shaft RPM but the test process was 1000hr at 3000rpm without a single drop of water!

[Mouldy]

2 hours ago, NeilB said:

I was going to suggest a prop refurb would be cheaper and quicker but Smoggy was faster, if the RPM is only out by a small amount the pitch can often be tweaked.

The engine should reach the manufacturers max rated RPM with the vessel at full load, or as close as possible.  The Nanni has a rated speed of 2800rpm but they may also have a prop selection speed range which could be something like 2600rpm to 2800rpm.  Peachments will know for sure.

 

According to Peachments, the current setup is within spec, so the warranty on the engine is now applied.  I guess it can’t be that far out then.

We’ll find out more as owners start to use her and report back.

[oldgregg]

On 14/01/2022 at 18:40, Mouldy said:

Certainly is.  Brooms have suggested that a larger prop may be required to bring the engine revs down as they believe it’s sitting around 100rpm too high for a given speed, but to try it and see how we get on.  At least it’s not 2000rpm at 5mph!!

No mention of a different pitch or a for bladed though.  Before diving in, I think we need to get the optimum size calculated properly.

If you've got the space then that would be an option - Thunder didn't really have room for a larger diameter prop.

[Tempest]

On 10/01/2022 at 20:09, C.Ricko said:

we have 4 on the Horning Pleasurecraft moorings and I would tend to agree

Great to see the work being completed on the syndicate boats at Horning Pleasurecraft

Looking good 👍

https://www.facebook.com/110557400763374/posts/438776234608154/

[Matt]

On 04/01/2022 at 08:55, Mouldy said:

It’s also worth mentioning that the gearbox will be reconditioned and two extra batteries will be fitted and wired into the domestic bank to alleviate the issues previously experienced with current drop causing the heating to cut out.

Over the past couple of years, the sliding canopy has been stripped, strengthened and refitted, with new headlining, new carpets and a new Victron pure sine wave inverter have also been fitted.

She is a sound craft and with the new engine, should be a good investment for anyone looking to get into syndicate ownership.

Can I ask what model inverter you had put into ES?

I appreciate someone on this forum will read this and smile but we have chewed through another set of inverter batteries in record time! Having taken the panel off and looked at Thunder’s inverter it might be time to upgrade……..

 

[NeilB]

Don't forget a batteries lifetime is measured in cycles, as a Syndicate boat you are working those batteries harder than any hire boat.  Unless they are kaput in under a year!!

 

[Matt]

12 minutes ago, NeilB said:

  Unless they are kaput in under a year!!

 

Pretty much a year to the day……

[Meantime]

You also need to consider depth of discharge and rate of discharge. Not having enough batteries in the bank will cause both to significantly increase and shorten battery life. 

Most leisure batteries are sold quoting ah, but what does that really mean? If you take the example of a typical 130ah leisure battery sold on eBay it has three ratings, C5 80ah, C20 100ah and C100 130ah. These are the maximum ah it will supply at differing discharge rates.

The C100 which is often the quoted headline capacity means it will supply 130 amps over 100 hours, or 1.3 amp per hour. The best way to get the maximum from a battery is a slow discharge. The C20 means it will give a maximum 100 amps over 20 hours, so a faster discharge rate has reduced the overall amount of current you can draw. Once you get to the C5 rate it will only give you 80 amps drawn over 5 hours. I would suggest that for your average invertor usage you are exceeding the C5 rate and therefore will get even less ah. 

Then the real killer is that you should never discharge your battery below 50% depth of discharge. So, you can halve all of the above figures if you don't want to kill your battery early.

Finally, you need to factor in that unless you have an advanced alternator regulator or a battery to battery charger you are probably only getting the batteries 100% when on shore power and battery charger. Once away from shore power and just relying on the standard alternator for charging you are probably only charging to about 90% capacity. That means that for a heavy load you have about 40% or less of your C5 rate to play with. For the 130ah leisure battery above that means about 32 amps if you don't want to damage or shorten the life of your battery. So, what does 32amps get you? Well at 12V about 400 watts for an hour. Run a 1.25kw element in a calorifier and you'll get about 18 mins run time on one battery without killing it. The invertor low voltage alarm will let you discharge a lot further than that, but you will be shortening the life of your battery. Add a second battery and you will half the discharge rate and double the runtime.

You need to start by looking at your anticipated load, work out what you are trying to run and how many watts it will take, then work that back into amp hours and then work out how many batteries you need. It will be a lot more than you were hoping for in most cases.

 

[annv]

Hi Also connecting them in the correct/best orientation is very important for max longevity. John

[Mouldy]

3 hours ago, Matt said:

Can I ask what model inverter you had put into ES?

I appreciate someone on this forum will read this and smile but we have chewed through another set of inverter batteries in record time! Having taken the panel off and looked at Thunder’s inverter it might be time to upgrade……..

 

As far as I’m aware, one of these has been fitted to Moonlight Shadow:

https://www.victronenergy.com/inverters/phoenix-inverter-compact

Whatever you chose to fit, make sure that it’s pure sine wave and not a modified sine wave model.  Our previous one was of the modified variety and began to cook various pieces of electronic equipment, including various phone chargers and a TV.

On the subject of the prop, a couple of syndicate members have suggested that she feels under propped, however given the gearing is the same as with the old Perkins lump, it must have been under propped before.  One suggestion is that years of dressing the propeller may have removed sufficient material to make it noticeably smaller, so we are going to get it measured at WM in February and take a view on what needs to be done.  Most of us are happy with her performance, though and the new engine has made a massive difference to the overall feel of the boat.

 

[Matt]

Thank you very much - that was indeed the one I expected you to have fitted!

Our current one is indeed a modified sine wave with a low voltage cut off at 10 volts (I am not aware of any other battery protection fitted) and so suspect this is what is shortening the life of the batteries- they are almost an annual replacement over the last 3 years!

 

thanks everyone for their input.

 

[Smoggy]

I'd say 10 volts is not flat it's deceased, sounds way too low to me.

[Meantime]

12 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

I'd say 10 volts is not flat it's deceased, sounds way too low to me.

It's complicated. When you draw current from a battery the voltage drops, then when you remove the load it should bounce back. A battery measuring 10V under a heavy load is not dead if it bounces back up to somewhere above 12V when the load is removed. If it stays at 10V when the load is removed it is dead. The low voltage alarm for an invertor is assuming a heavy load.

If your battery is measuring 12.6V and you turn on a 10 watt light it should still measure 12.6V. However turn on your immersion connected to an invertor and I would expect it to drop immediately to somewhere between 11V and 12V. Turn off the load and your battery should recover to 12.6V if the load was very brief. If the load was for about 10 mins then you would expect the battery to recover to somewhere around 12.4V to 12.5V indicating that the battery is no longer fully charged, but still has some capacity. 

The terminal voltage after all load has been removed and the battery has had time to recover will give you a more accurate state of charge, but agree any battery that stays at 10V with no load and having had time to recover, probably has a dead cell.

Low voltage alarms on invertors are to stop you completely flattening the battery, however they will let you go below the recommended 50% depth of discharge which will not kill the battery, but will shorten its life.

[oldgregg]

4 hours ago, Matt said:

I appreciate someone on this forum will read this and smile but we have chewed through another set of inverter batteries in record time! Having taken the panel off and looked at Thunder’s inverter it might be time to upgrade……..

 

Couldn't possibly comment 😜