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Interim Accident Report


Bytheriver

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Well I'm sorry, but I don't see much point in publishing a report like that.  Apart from date, time and place it doesn't really tell us anything.  According to the EDP this morning, the inquest on the fatality is not now being held until early November anyway.

There is, however, a heavy inference that the hire boat industry has been contacted with new guidelines (rules?) on safety in handling big boats, engine controls and other things.   I don't see how they can infer blame in that way without stating reasons.

I notice on Ferry Marina's website that the name Diamond Emblem is no longer listed.  I assume they have been re-named and are a 10 berth boat, as the report says there were 9 persons aboard.

I am afraid I resent this kind of immediate suspicion of hiring companies before anything at all has been proven or announced.  It could just as easily have been an accident on a private boat.

 

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This is going to cause more cost to hire companies with modifications to vessels that have been totally unnecessary for 100 years prior. We saw similar problems in the last BSS update with regard to grab rails and non-slip areas. All valid points but none taking any ques from river boats, just narrow boats, few of which will be historic like the Hunter fleet. 

The powers that be don't insist that cars are mare of foam rubber to prevent injury to pedestrians in collisions. Is this because we all expect to break bones or worse if hit by a car but don't expect to be hurt if we fall into the water around propeller? 

I always tried to focus attention on this in handovers using the phrase "the propeller is a blender for legs". It got winces, but I bet they remembered the phrase as the wording was intentional. Way too few people on a handover are interested in listening to what you have to say. Maybe the answer is to have an official Broads-wide video that everybody sits in front of and watches on rotation before boarding. No other distractions, just sit and watch. 

The report says nothing much but hints at changes. The joke is that the Hire Boat Code has taken as long to be defined, redefined and adopted as I had been in business. Our handover was based on the code which has never been officially adopted on the Broads, though why, I have no idea. 

Safety is paramount and improving safety if clearly important. But many accidents don't happen because safety measures haven't been put in place. They happen because they are ignored by people. The most difficult thing to change in this is a a personal choice, decision or total indifference.  

  







 

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A very sad and tragic event. But I notice in the other place the yards and hirer's are being questioned. this boat has been afloat on hire for some years now and to my knowledge its the 1st incident she's been involved in. Like you say Vaughan there is a huge amount of information we are not party to. So why people feel the need to Start pointing fingers is beyond me. We were once leaving Reedham ferry, my father nudged the quay heading by accident not very hard at all. I wasn't expecting the jolt and if it wasn't for my brother grabing me I'd of ended up in the water. So it doesn't take a great deal for things to go horribly wrong. Poor woman, may she rest in peace.

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Looks like a box ticking exercise to me. It seems they have to produce this because the full report isn't ready, and the Chief Inspector obviously feels he should be seen to be doing something. I would have thought the only way new evidence would come to light was if they publish more details and it instigated another eye witness to come forward.

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48 minutes ago, Oddfellow said:

The powers that be don't insist that cars are mare of foam rubber to prevent injury to pedestrians in collisions.

The powers that be may not, but good car designers do take pedestrian safety very seriously. The fancy creases you see on car bonnets are not just for looks, they are often designed to deflect pedestrians to minimise injury in a crash. Some cars have airbags just for pedestrians and I know at least Volvo have a full pedestrian and cyclist detection system which will automatically stop the car if a collision with a pedestrian is imminent.

I agree we should not pre-empt the outcome of a report, but as far as safety is concerned we should not have to wait for someone to be killed before acting on good design and practice. Any boat designer should build safety into new designs and not wait for the 'powers that be' to tell them. 

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1 hour ago, Oddfellow said:

This is going to cause more cost to hire companies with modifications to vessels that have been totally unnecessary for 100 years prior. We saw similar problems in the last BSS update with regard to grab rails and non-slip areas. All valid points but none taking any ques from river boats, just narrow boats, few of which will be historic like the Hunter fleet. 

The powers that be don't insist that cars are mare of foam rubber to prevent injury to pedestrians in collisions. Is this because we all expect to break bones or worse if hit by a car but don't expect to be hurt if we fall into the water around propeller? 

I always tried to focus attention on this in handovers using the phrase "the propeller is a blender for legs". It got winces, but I bet they remembered the phrase as the wording was intentional. Way too few people on a handover are interested in listening to what you have to say. Maybe the answer is to have an official Broads-wide video that everybody sits in front of and watches on rotation before boarding. No other distractions, just sit and watch. 

The report says nothing much but hints at changes. The joke is that the Hire Boat Code has taken as long to be defined, redefined and adopted as I had been in business. Our handover was based on the code which has never been officially adopted on the Broads, though why, I have no idea. 

Safety is paramount and improving safety if clearly important. But many accidents don't happen because safety measures haven't been put in place. They happen because they are ignored by people. The most difficult thing to change in this is a a personal choice, decision or total indifference.  

  







 

I have not been for a number of years, but on the Shannon Erne waterways a 45 minute video was mandatory before you got anywhere near your hire craft. We used to hire from Portumna, Northern most Lough Derg but I can't remember the company I think they may have been bought out.

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Out of curiosity I have just looked. The name has been retained "Emerald Star" their premier range look lovely boats and much better value than The Broads offering. But you do have the time/cost of getting to Eire but worth every penny imho.

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14 minutes ago, RS2021 said:

The powers that be may not, but good car designers do take pedestrian safety very seriously. The fancy creases you see on car bonnets are not just for looks, they are often designed to deflect pedestrians to minimise injury in a crash. Some cars have airbags just for pedestrians and I know at least Volvo have a full pedestrian and cyclist detection system which will automatically stop the car if a collision with a pedestrian is imminent.

I agree we should not pre-empt the outcome of a report, but as far as safety is concerned we should not have to wait for someone to be killed before acting on good design and practice. Any boat designer should build safety into new designs and not wait for the 'powers that be' to tell them. 

Sure, but we also need to appreciate that, even for the most successful boats ever produced by Aquafibre, there were probably only ever a few hundred examples of each. The R&D ability of designers and builders is not even in the same continent as, say, Volvo, let alone ballpark. And, when all said and done, accidents and fatalities still happen on the roads in their thousand every year, despite the strides made by car manufacturers and this is because its the human element that fails in most cases. A boat impact that's unexpected will take anyone by surprise and even the smallest one has the ability to cause someone to stumble and lose their footing. You can't easily design that out of a boat, bus or train unless you literally lash people on. 

If there is an obvious design issue that increases risk, it should be addressed before someone gets hurt. But there's also a danger of a design feature that's ultimately beneficial being accused of being the "cause" just because someone was hurt whilst on it/using it. 

I don't know where this is going to end up but I do know that the common denominator in virtually all these accidents is human error and some have been errors by experiences boaters too. The solution to these problems is knowledge, training, awareness and a good dose of all these will help impact on many aspect of Boat Hire that cause many online "debates". 

Last year, I produced this: 

It's had 8,500 views in under 14 months and much praise. This is the kind of thing that hirers should be made to watch before even getting their lifejackets. 

 

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26 minutes ago, RS2021 said:

The powers that be may not, but good car designers do take pedestrian safety very seriously. The fancy creases you see on car bonnets are not just for looks, they are often designed to deflect pedestrians to minimise injury in a crash. Some cars have airbags just for pedestrians and I know at least Volvo have a full pedestrian and cyclist detection system which will automatically stop the car if a collision with a pedestrian is imminent.

I agree we should not pre-empt the outcome of a report, but as far as safety is concerned we should not have to wait for someone to be killed before acting on good design and practice. Any boat designer should build safety into new designs and not wait for the 'powers that be' to tell them. 

While it is difficult to bring in retrospective legislation and you certainly can't account for the actions of individuals we have often commented on the safety of the stern design of many modern dual steer boats.

Fred

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Much is said on forums such as this about the correct timings for a safe passage through Yarmouth and across Breydon Water, yet little reference is really made to the correct time to arrive at Yarmouth if intending to moor and not transit Breydon. 

If your boat is too tall to pass under the bridges and the tide is ebbing, you are going to have to turn before the bridge in order to moor up. I don't think I have ever turned between the yacht station and the bridge and would hope to never have too. I personally make sure to never head towards that area unless I know I have very good clearance under the bridge. I only need 6ft 6ins, but there are occasions when there are less than that. 

If intending to moor at Yarmouth on an ebb I would always head under the bridges to make my turn and then head back.

I have raised this issue before and given that the times of the tide move on a daily basis, I think the BA's fixed period mooring policy at Yarmouth is a safety issue. Overnight till 10am and daily 10am till 6pm means that people will often rush to depart before 10am in any tide state. The same is often true for arriving to make the most of their mooring period. 

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3 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I notice on Ferry Marina's website that the name Diamond Emblem is no longer listed.  I assume they have been re-named and are a 10 berth boat, as the report says there were 9 persons aboard.

I believe there were 2 Diamond Emblem's. I'm guessing to avoid mistaken identity both have been renamed, it probably serves no good purpose to reveal what they have been renamed to, however only one has been tolled for this year. The one involved in the incident remains untolled for now.

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12 minutes ago, Meantime said:

I have raised this issue before and given that the times of the tide move on a daily basis, I think the BA's fixed period mooring policy at Yarmouth is a safety issue. Overnight till 10am and daily 10am till 6pm means that people will often rush to depart before 10am in any tide state. The same is often true for arriving to make the most of their mooring period. 

I think that is a very valid point. The BA would probably argue that they have rangers on-hand to assist, but making departure hazardous must be the cause of a lot of "difficulties" amongst totally inexperienced navigators. 

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1 minute ago, Oddfellow said:

I think that is a very valid point. The BA would probably argue that they have rangers on-hand to assist, but making departure hazardous must be the cause of a lot of "difficulties" amongst totally inexperienced navigators. 

I'm not sure, but I'm guessing the mooring is not far off half a mile long. As often witnessed at Reedham, the rangers cannot be on hand at all parts of the mooring to assist, especially when there is a couple of arrivals in different parts of the mooring with perhaps one other departing. Add in the fact that double mooring is also allowed!

Mooring fees should be for a 13 or 26 hour period with people strongly advised to time their arrival at slack low or slack high water, when there is the safest opportunity to turn before the bridge if needed.

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24 minutes ago, Meantime said:

I'm not sure, but I'm guessing the mooring is not far off half a mile long. As often witnessed at Reedham, the rangers cannot be on hand at all parts of the mooring to assist, especially when there is a couple of arrivals in different parts of the mooring with perhaps one other departing. Add in the fact that double mooring is also allowed!

Mooring fees should be for a 13 or 26 hour period with people strongly advised to time their arrival at slack low or slack high water, when there is the safest opportunity to turn before the bridge if needed.

While I wouldn't disagree with that how many people would and do ignore sensible advice, also while I am all in favour of good tuition for all nothing will ever prevent people from taking risks we see it in every aspect of life and even the most experienced are probably guilty of complacency  at some point, sad as it is accidents always have and always will happen

Fred

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Looking at the interim report on the last page it states the following;

External & internal environment Dry, light breeze, ebbing tide, predicted low water at 1418, high water at 2017

However a look at my copy of the Herbert Woods tide table for 19th August 2020 suggests that low water at the yacht station was predicted to be 17:15. This is also backed up with a check on www.norfolk-broads.org tides.

:default_icon_e_confused:

I have contacted MAIB to let them know as this could be quite relevant to their investigation, given the height of the vessel, the height of the bridges and the need to turn in a strong ebb.

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18 minutes ago, Meantime said:

However a look at my copy of the Herbert Woods tide table for 19th August 2020 suggests that low water at the yacht station was predicted to be 17:15.

This could be explained by MAIB, being an inherantly sea-going organisation, taking the times at Yarmouth Bar rather than Yarmouth Yacht Station.  A common discrepancy in these cases.

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19 minutes ago, Meantime said:

Looking at the interim report on the last page it states the following;

External & internal environment Dry, light breeze, ebbing tide, predicted low water at 1418, high water at 2017

However a look at my copy of the Herbert Woods tide table for 19th August 2020 suggests that low water at the yacht station was predicted to be 17:15. This is also backed up with a check on www.norfolk-broads.org tides.

:default_icon_e_confused:

Well, someone's wrong..... If it's the MAIB, it begins to draw questions over their competency to investigate even a sunrise. 

Being three hours out is a big error. 

 

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1 minute ago, Vaughan said:

This could be explained by MAIB, being an inherantly sea-going organisation, taking the times at Yarmouth Bar rather than Yarmouth Yacht Station.  A common discrepancy in these cases.

I wondered that, but isn't Yarmouth bar one hour earlier!

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1 minute ago, Vaughan said:

This could be explained by MAIB, being an inherantly sea-going organisation, taking the times at Yarmouth Bar rather than Yarmouth Yacht Station.  A common discrepancy in these cases.

But there's only one hour difference between the Yacht Station and Yarmouth Bar. This is three hours adrift. 

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3 minutes ago, Oddfellow said:

Well, someone's wrong..... If it's the MAIB, it begins to draw questions over their competency to investigate even a sunrise. 

Being three hours out is a big error. 

 

The Broadcastor for 2020 has low water predicted at 17:27 with slack water being one hour later.

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5 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

I would imagine the maib would work in UT not BST and from the bar, tide tables from different sources often have differences.

Whichever way you look at it, the incident still happened some 4 hours before low water at the yacht station and some five hours before slack water.

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