Interim Accident Report

[Meantime]

15 minutes ago, annv said:

Either way the boat should have turned other side of bridge as signs inform you too do not at the yacht station where it is narrower. John

Not wishing to get into too much detail, that should be MAIB's job, but depending on tide state not all boats will pass under the bridge, which is why getting the time of low water is so critical for this investigation.

[rightsaidfred]

2 hours ago, Meantime said:

Not wishing to get into too much detail, that should be MAIB's job, but depending on tide state not all boats will pass under the bridge, which is why getting the time of low water is so critical for this investigation.

I totally agree, however how many incidents have there been at GY over the years let alone elsewhere that but for luck or prompt action of others could have been as bad but no further action has been taken, sadly there are fatalities every year the two at GY just happen to have received greater publicity, by all means lets make improvements where practical but just not get to carried away trying to sanitise everything.

Fred 

[Vaughan]

8 hours ago, Oddfellow said:

The joke is that the Hire Boat Code has taken as long to be defined, redefined and adopted as I had been in business. Our handover was based on the code which has never been officially adopted on the Broads, though why, I have no idea. 

 

Entirely by coincidence, I came across this paper a couple of days ago when sorting through boxes after our house move.  It is an extract from the minutes of the AGM of the NSBYOA, which was the association of owners which formed Blakes.  Hence the "A" flag, meaning association.  Blakes Holidays Ltd was the company that marketed on behalf of the Association.

I had resigned from the council of the association when I sold my yard and moved to France and this paper was sent to me  later by David Court, who was M.D. of Blakes.

 

Gerry Thrower, by the way, was the yard manager for Richardsons.  A good friend and fellow member of the technical committee.

In those days there were no installation safety standards on the Broads although there were the Thames Conservancy rules, on which my version was partly based.  We knew there was a new Broads Authority in the offing and we feared that they would impose all sorts of obscure standards which would be impossible to install in our boats and would put half of us out of business.  So we sat down and thrashed out our own standards, which were very soon approved by the BOA (Hoseasons) and by the time the Broads Authority arrived, we were seen to have our own rules, which we were enforcing, and so thankfully, we were left to get on with it.

Please read carefully the last part of the second paragraph.  These standards were adopted by the River Commissioners and then by the NRA (National Rivers Authority) to cover all inland waterways in England.  It was on these standards, almost without change, that the modern BSS was based.

Perhaps this explains why I am so quick to jump to the defence of the boat hire industry when these sort of spurious allegations are made or inferred.  It is so easy for the press and even official bodies, to make us sound like a lot of profiteering carpet salesmen but the reverse is actually the truth.  We don't just abide by the regulations - we originally wrote them.

Of course we do all we possibly can to avoid accidents on the water.  Safety is and always was, a paramount priority.

 

[CambridgeCabby]

This season , more than previous years , we have seen a huge rise in first time and inexperienced hirers , due partially or wholly  to the “staycation” mentality forced on us by the covid pandemic.

The boat yards handovers have also been effected by staff shortages and necessary measures caused by the pandemic. 

On the whole I would say I have found those holidayers we have encountered over the last few weeks have been no better or worse than in previous years , the yards seem to be handling the situation very well in what must be difficult and currently very busy times.

Yes various platforms are gleefully showing bumps and mishaps afloat , which ,yes, happen but so does far far more good boating manoeuvres .

My congratulations go to the various yards for the way they have dealt with the current situation , thousands of new to boating families will have and shall have memories to cherish, facilitated in no small way by the measures already in place and the hand over procedures they use .

I have watched the videos from the BA , Richardson’s, and Freedom all of which are insightful and should be viewed by all prospective hirers , and by many of us privateers too.

Accidents happen , sadly , no amount of legislation will prevent this , all further legislation will do is place more financial burden on the hire yards and put potential customers off .
 

[Wussername]

The hire industry does not need legislation. It needs a recognition of the demands it fails to recognise. No amount of videos will resolve the issue.

 Before anything else there needs to be an awareness of the vulnerability of the hirer. That has never been considered.

1 Commonsense 

2 Discipline 

3 Communication 

4 Consideration. 

Once those bench marks have been identified one can then move on to the finer points of handling a boat.

But not until.

Andrew

[rightsaidfred]

23 minutes ago, Wussername said:

The hire industry does not need legislation. It needs a recognition of the demands it fails to recognise. No amount of videos will resolve the issue.

 Before anything else there needs to be an awareness of the vulnerability of the hirer. That has never been considered.

1 Commonsense 

2 Discipline 

3 Communication 

4 Consideration. 

Once those bench marks have been identified one can then move on to the finer points of handling a boat.

But not until.

Andrew

Items 1 and 2 are never likely to be resolved given the mentality of to many these days same could probably be said of item 4 with some.

Fred

[Wussername]

5 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Items 1 and 2 are never likely to be resolved given the mentality of to many these days same could probably be said of item 4 with some.

Fred

Give up.

Is that the answer Fred?

[andyg]

Hemsby life boat attended an incident at St olaves on the 25/9 one of Richardson's new dual steer boats got wedged under the bridge. Crew taken off and Richardson's engineers put aboard with ballast drums and pump. Boat was safely removed. As reported on Hemsby fb page. Now my question would be, how on earth did that happen ?? The pictures quite clearly show it was a bright sunny day ! So I assume it was being helmed from the flybridge, yes I know you should never assume. If it wasn't then the only other explanation is a total lack of awareness and disregard for the safety of the crew and boat. There are stickers on all these boats warning of the dangers of low bridge's it's in the skippers manual, highlighted on websites the companies brouches etc etc. So how does a boat yard design out stupidly. I'm sorry but at some point the crew/s need to take responsibility for there actions and stop looking to blame others..

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, Wussername said:

Give up.

Is that the answer Fred?

Not give up  but accept reality, by all means take all reasonable steps to improve things both with training and design but there comes a point when individuals have to step up and take responsibility for their own actions, you can lead a horse to water you can't make it drink, likewise you can educate people all you like you can't make them learn or stop and think, many people only learn by mistakes sometimes to late.

Fred

[CambridgeCabby]

37 minutes ago, andyg said:

Hemsby life boat attended an incident at St olaves on the 25/9 one of Richardson's new dual steer boats got wedged under the bridge. Crew taken off and Richardson's engineers put aboard with ballast drums and pump. Boat was safely removed. As reported on Hemsby fb page. Now my question would be, how on earth did that happen ?? The pictures quite clearly show it was a bright sunny day ! So I assume it was being helmed from the flybridge, yes I know you should never assume. If it wasn't then the only other explanation is a total lack of awareness and disregard for the safety of the crew and boat. There are stickers on all these boats warning of the dangers of low bridge's it's in the skippers manual, highlighted on websites the companies brouches etc etc. So how does a boat yard design out stupidly. I'm sorry but at some point the crew/s need to take responsibility for there actions and stop looking to blame others..

Incident was today 07/09 at St Olaves as opposed to 25/09

[Wussername]

14 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Not give up  but accept reality, by all means take all reasonable steps to improve things both with training and design but there comes a point when individuals have to step up and take responsibility for their own actions, you can lead a horse to water you can't make it drink, likewise you can educate people all you like you can't make them learn or stop and think, many people only learn by mistakes sometimes to late.

Fred

I agree Fred. Learning by mistake however is not the answer. Why are these mistakes occurring. It is not my intention to provoke a conflict of opinion, far from it. I just wish to see or realise a satisfactory conclusion to a difficult and distressing period.

This forum, its members, its experience, understanding, knowledge, constructive and genuine conflict of opinion will surely be recognised by those who lack these attributes.

[Helian]

1 hour ago, CambridgeCabby said:

So how does a boat yard design out stupidly

You can't, nor can you effectively legislate against it 🤔

[CambridgeCabby]

In my defence , it wasn’t my comment 

[floydraser]

Is it just me but as this thread is about one particular incident and therefore one particular hirer, I don't think this is the place to talk about hirer stupidity, especially as we have no conclusion. Maybe another thread.

[rightsaidfred]

47 minutes ago, Wussername said:

I agree Fred. Learning by mistake however is not the answer. Why are these mistakes occurring. It is not my intention to provoke a conflict of opinion, far from it. I just wish to see or realise a satisfactory conclusion to a difficult and distressing period.

This forum, its members, its experience, understanding, knowledge, constructive and genuine conflict of opinion will surely be recognised by those who lack these attributes.

I agree, while I have no idea what the answer is I do know that persecuting the industry that made the broads what they are is not the answer.

Fred

[grendel]

9 hours ago, andyg said:

Hemsby life boat attended an incident at St olaves on the 25/9 one of Richardson's new dual steer boats got wedged under the bridge. Crew taken off and Richardson's engineers put aboard with ballast drums and pump. Boat was safely removed. As reported on Hemsby fb page. Now my question would be, how on earth did that happen ?? The pictures quite clearly show it was a bright sunny day ! So I assume it was being helmed from the flybridge, yes I know you should never assume. If it wasn't then the only other explanation is a total lack of awareness and disregard for the safety of the crew and boat. There are stickers on all these boats warning of the dangers of low bridge's it's in the skippers manual, highlighted on websites the companies brouches etc etc. So how does a boat yard design out stupidly. I'm sorry but at some point the crew/s need to take responsibility for there actions and stop looking to blame others..

the easy mistake to make is to assume that because you came one way and got under the bridge that you can go through again, and just not have to think about it or check the clearance every time. a moments inattention and probably easily done if every other bridge you have come across has been so.

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, grendel said:

the easy mistake to make is to assume that because you came one way and got under the bridge that you can go through again, and just not have to think about it or check the clearance every time. a moments inattention and probably easily done if every other bridge you have come across has been so.

None of us is infalable, for first timers in holiday mode it can be easy to make a mistake.

Fred

.

[MauriceMynah]

12 hours ago, Wussername said:

Give up.

Is that the answer Fred?

 It's always worked for me. :-)

[Bytheriver]

I do wonder if some crews are not sure of the locations they are going to - I was chatting to a crew yesterday about to leave via Reedham Swing Bridge ( which they would get trough with ease) & they asked about "a bridge" on the New Cut - I assured them that the road bridge would be fine & that Somerleyton was only a few inches lower than Reedham but I did warn about St Olaves 

I did wonder if it was they but they were from a different yard thank goodness

[Oddfellow]

9 hours ago, floydraser said:

Is it just me but as this thread is about one particular incident and therefore one particular hirer, I don't think this is the place to talk about hirer stupidity, especially as we have no conclusion. Maybe another thread.

Nobody is suggesting that the poor lady who lost her life at Yarmouth last year was stupid. 

This was a result of a set of circumstances by inexperienced people finding themselves in a challenging situation that they did not have the skills to properly deal with. It happens daily and most of the time, people get away with it. 

The vast majority of motor boaters on our rivers have not received more than a few hours training (assuming they have been hiring for a few years). Many boat owners have never, ever, invested in an official boat-handling course (I am sure there will be people popping up saying "I have", but you will be in the minority and, anyway, bully for you). Most have learned whatever "skills" they have from experience and errors and I put "skills" in quotes because they might not be approved methods of dealing with things either. 

The point being that this accident could have happened to most of us at some time in our past. As a child, I ended up in the water because the rope I was "jumping" off with was too short and I stopped just short of the quay and rammed my ribs down on the quay heading whilst my lower half got a dunking. That was about 38 years ago and it's one of the few memories my addled brain can recall. I have never done it again and I step, not jump.

In my view, you will never stop accidents like this unless you make people have proper training before working as crew on a cruiser. The moment you do that, there will be no cruisers left to hire. You could legislate that lifejackets must we worn and that would help for sure, but it wont stop someone being dragged if caught under in a rope around a prop. 

If you force guard rails around the decks, existing cruisers become hard to walk around as the decks aren't wide enough and you also create other problems for access, likely promoting accidents in the process and, certainly, creating huge levels of damage also. 

There may be issues of design in cruisers that make some harder to operate than others but at the heart of every problem is the person at the helm and if we are to change things for the better, we must start addressing that common denominator.  I don't know how. I don't have the answers, but I do know that boat design is NOT the cause of accidents, it's human error and inexperience. 

 

[YnysMon]

12 hours ago, andyg said:

the only other explanation is a total lack of awareness and disregard for the safety of the crew and boat

Total lack of awareness yes, but not necessarily disregard of the safety of the crew. On our last trip on the Broads we were heading upstream the Ant on a busy Sunday morning, approaching Ludham Bridge behind a rather high dual steer cruiser that had several bicycles on the roof. It wasn't until they turned the corner and saw the bridge that they proceeded to move the bicycles, so I'm pretty sure they were completely unaware that they'd have to go under a bridge to get up the Ant. 

[marshman]

New car drivers still make silly mistakes despite having tests to sit and hours of practice - just proves the point that a lot of what has been suggested, would actually make not a jot of difference I am afraid. 

Its nothing new and to be honest, do we really think it would. Its a rear end covering process - nothing more!

[Oddfellow]

1 hour ago, YnysMon said:

Total lack of awareness yes, but not necessarily disregard of the safety of the crew. On our last trip on the Broads we were heading upstream the Ant on a busy Sunday morning, approaching Ludham Bridge behind a rather high dual steer cruiser that had several bicycles on the roof. It wasn't until they turned the corner and saw the bridge that they proceeded to move the bicycles, so I'm pretty sure they were completely unaware that they'd have to go under a bridge to get up the Ant. 

Surely, that's a lack of preparation: not taking a look at maps or sat-nav which would have taken moments. 

 

[rightsaidfred]

2 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

 It's always worked for me. :-)

Could be the way to go MM, while not wishing to belittle any tragedy life was far easier to deal with when I was young, if you climbed and fell out of a tree no one wanted to cut it down or fence it off you just climbed back up a bit more carefully.

Think it's time I got back to fishing and having a beer before they become clasiffied as life threatening activities although I believe beer is already on the list.

Fred

[Meantime]

I see a boat was stuck under St Olaves bridge yesterday. I think partly it is a generational thing. I grew up in an age where you used paper maps if you wanted to get anywhere. No sat nav, or voice telling you which way to turn. Hence when we first hired a boat the first thing we did was study the map and guide books and they will often have other useful info printed on them such as bridges and warnings. If you look at Google maps, yes you can see which way the rivers meander, and it should be obvious where a road crosses that there has to be a bridge, but not so obvious is how restricting that bridge might be.

Sadly in these days a lot of people cannot even find their way around without some form of technology welded to their hand.