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New Engine Dilemma


Keebz

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In a bit of a dilemma, there’s a 1.5 bmc on my alpha 32 and ive done the usual looking at new engine packages but I love the bmc but also appreciate we may have to go hybrid in a few years so I’m tempted to have the bmc rebuilt  any one else had similar thoughts, I really wanted to keep this boat simple as a promise was made to my late dad but he knew what I’m like with boats 

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Difficult one but very interesting too. I've tried to decide what I would do. Mine has a good old thumper of a Thorneycroft/Fergy tractor engine which I would be sad to get rid of. However, at some stage we have to move with the times. The trouble is we seem to be in the middle of a dramatic, fast moving progression towards electric/hybrid power and this is reflected in the prices, and not helped by the shortages due to the pandemic.

I would try and buy some time; go for a refurb of the old unit and plan for hybrid/electric/hydrogen/nuclear/krypton/photon/solar/clockwork power (you saw it here first) in the future.:default_sailing:

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Hybrid is not the final solution. They still involve an internal combustion engine that, given the government’s current plan, will still be banned. 
we investigated a new engine package and it was eye watering. 
it involves new wiring, dash, engine bearers, adapter plate for hydraulic drive and adaptations for throttle and direction. 
very much north of 6 grand. 
with an uncertain future it may be cost prohibitive for a new engine 

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there will always be a place for diesel in boats, after all when sailing across an ocean you cant just stop and plug into shore power to charge up, once fitted in a boat I would expect to be able to use the engine for the forseeable future, but maybe further engine changes may require a change over to electric or some other fuel, but that said the  BMC will if well maintained, last your lifetime out.

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The BMC is a good engine for a river boat as it's proved over a lot of years, not refined but solid and reliable, what is actually up with it? A lot of the time with old diesels a pump and injector refurb gives them a new lease of life without taking the engine out, oil pressure and compression are the deciding factors, and if the bores are ok a head refurb is a relatively cheap and easy option for the cost of a head gasket set.

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Hi I just like to say this if they can do Hybrid Petrol and Electric together so why can they make this with Diesel? As this would make things easier then having to find a plug in Charger for all Electric as only hook ups are now only being used  on Midrange and newer Boats now to save Battery's being Murdered while moored up at night time.

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The so called hybrid answer for motor transport IMHO is one of the biggest “cons” played on the general public for many a year.

It merely moves the pollution from one area to another , in a car it is supposed to move the pollutants out of the occupied urban areas onto the motorways and fast roads , in reality you get up to 15 to 20 minutes use before the engine kicks in to recharge the batteries which themselves are causing a global environmental crisis for the future.

On the Broads there are no fast roads , you will run a bit on the batteries and then the engines will kick in which in turn wastes energy through the transfer into the battery banks.

Humankind is getting better in its understanding of electrical propulsion and how to generate the electricity used but we are not there yet , far from it , yet by rushing into this new EV age we are merely creating a disaster for the planet with the mining of the materials currently used and the disposal of the depleted materials in the not to distant future.

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31 minutes ago, Andrewcook said:

Hi I just like to say this if they can do Hybrid Petrol and Electric together so why can they make this with Diesel? As this would make things easier then having to find a plug in Charger for all Electric as only hook ups are now only being used  on Midrange and newer Boats now to save Battery's being Murdered while moored up at night time.

There have been hybrid diesels for about 8 years now from Nanni........ 

 

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I tend to be of the opinion that a good rebuild on an older engine is a decent option.

The Nanni / Beta lumps are good but can't really be rebuilt so after 15-20,000 hours you'll want a new one, whereas there are BMC and Perkins engines in Broads boats that are many decades old and still going strong. I tend to think they're still there for a reason.

Fuel economy is pretty terrible on all 'injection pump' engines when compared to modern common rail / unit engines as used in vehicles so I wouldn't consider that a big advantage for the Kubota stuff either.

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Hi Keebz A bmc or perkins are no good for hybrid use. the idea of hybrid is for electric drive from battery's that are charged from the grid or solar with a SMALL economical internal combustion engine that is configured to run at one speed driving a generator for max output with minimal fuel use, not a large variable speed bmc diesel, suggest you either overhaul the bmc (cheapest) or strip it out and go hybrid at four times the cost, much like changing your gas boiler for a combi one £4000=00 to save £100=00 per year in your pocket but less green house gases,  hybrids only become useful if built from scratch unless there are other factors to take into account. John  

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Hi Andrew They use a petrol engine because they are smaller and lighter and if only one or two calendars are smoother and quieter the down side of hybrid in cars is the size and weight of the battery bank this is not a issue on a boat, a hybrid in car just removes the pollution from city centre to country side, there is no saving of running costs but with city centre driving restrictions allows the best compromise.   charging over night i.e. slowly dosn't murder battery's its the fast 1/2 hour motorway charging that does this not the 13amp house hold supply which my take longer on a white meter. John

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On 16/09/2021 at 11:00, oldgregg said:

The Nanni / Beta lumps are good but can't really be rebuilt

Please explain ?

 

I shall be taking no action until such time as propelling my boat by diesel becomes illegal or impractical. I ssuspect that this will not happen in my lifetime.

Globally, Diesel is cleaner than petrol (for the atmosphere ozone layer etc.) locally, petrol is cleaner than diesel, so work out whether your priorities are to save Norwich or the world !

Don't forget that the government of the day is only interestedin becominjg the government of tomorrow too. That applies to all politicalparties.

Personally, I believe that Global pollution is much more important than local air quality but that is an attitude that wins no votes!

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Diesel vs petrol is an interesting one. By shifting away from diesel, we are hopefully reducing the number of local air pollution problems but adding more to global CO2.  Apart from the posturing of politicians and environmentalists, I have to wonder how much the world really cares about this stuff. The house builders are now building more and more housing estates close to motorways and major roads and we are all buying more and more cheap cr*p from China which in terms of CO2 is the world's biggest polluter and has no intention of ceasing it's relentless burning of coal until 2060, by which time coal will have run out or we will all be dead.

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I can't see electric powered engines in boats being an option in my lifetime and the availability of Diesel should be ok for the foreseeable future, as I can't see HGV 1's being able to economically carry enough batteries for long haul any time soon.

I have had a number of diesel cars for mileage economy and my latest has two tanks one for diesel and one for AdBlu, the additive which pretty much neutralises the pollutants. I know little about the technology and although our engines and exhausts are water cooled, is it possible to use catalytic converters and AdBlu to reduce our carbon footprint on our boats, for engines designed in the future.

I'm sure we have engine techies out there who can advise.

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I've never quire understood the mass switch to battery powered electric vehicles.

The current battery technologies are heavily dependant on materials such as lithium, which themselves are sparse resources and polluting /  exploitative in their extraction and processing.

Furthermore, the concept of throwing out one product that still has usable life left in it, for another new one that is 'greener', seems to ignore the pollution caused in the manufacture of the new product where this is a 'sunk cost' in the old product.

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On 16/09/2021 at 11:29, annv said:

Hi Keebz A bmc or perkins are no good for hybrid use. the idea of hybrid is for electric drive from battery's that are charged from the grid or solar with a SMALL economical internal combustion engine that is configured to run at one speed driving a generator for max output with minimal fuel use, not a large variable speed bmc diesel, suggest you either overhaul the bmc (cheapest) or strip it out and go hybrid at four times the cost, much like changing your gas boiler for a combi one £4000=00 to save £100=00 per year in your pocket but less green house gases,  hybrids only become useful if built from scratch unless there are other factors to take into account. John  

Probably missed my point I never meant to make bmc I got hybrid I meant replace but really appreciate the input👍

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4 hours ago, PaulN said:

I have had a number of diesel cars for mileage economy and my latest has two tanks one for diesel and one for AdBlu, the additive which pretty much neutralises the pollutants. I know little about the technology and although our engines and exhausts are water cooled, is it possible to use catalytic converters and AdBlu to reduce our carbon footprint on our boats, for engines designed in the future.

I'm sure we have engine techies out there who can advise.

Yes it is and we already supply these systems for marine commercial applications.

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9 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

Please explain ?

As we know, modern marine diesels are based on their automotive counterparts. These engines are built to tolerances that are unable to be replicated during outside refurbishment and so the units go back to the original manufacturer as service exchange items and are rebuilt accordingly by them.

Because you can't rebuild the engine, outside of the original manufacturers factory, very few internal components are made available for rebuilds. 

Nanni,  et al,  offer no exchange units and we can't rebuild them so, ultimately,  they are single use units.

Gotta love BMC's.... I wouldn't fit anything else!

 

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10 hours ago, JanetAnne said:

Nanni,  et al,  offer no exchange units

That's funny, they always used to, at least up to about 8 years ago.  They offered a short engine, with starter and flywheel, or a bobtail engine with heat exchanger, alternator, etc. Cost was about €2500, (last time I looked!).

Maybe Peachments don't do them, but the Nanni factory is at La Teste, near Bordeaux in France.

I agree they cannot be practically rebuilt but so long as you change the oil regularly they will last a very long time indeed.  I have heard of some with 15,000 hours, on hire, and still going!

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On thinking back, in Crown Blue Line, with 450 hire boats, the only spares we kept in stock on the bases for the Nanni engines were for the raw water cooling circuit, the pre-heat glow plugs and the pre-heat relay. Virtually nothing else went wrong regularly enough to need having the part in stock.

I don't count the drive line of course, or the mounting feet but that's regular maintenance anyway.

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28 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

That's funny, they always used to, at least up to about 8 years ago.  They offered a short engine, with starter and flywheel, or a bobtail engine with heat exchanger, alternator, etc. Cost was about €2500, (last time I looked!).

Maybe Peachments don't do them, but the Nanni factory is at La Teste, near Bordeaux in France.

I agree they cannot be practically rebuilt but so long as you change the oil regularly they will last a very long time indeed.  I have heard of some with 15,000 hours, on hire, and still going!

Perhaps it is just the UK then. Peachments are normally pretty helpful and seem to be the main distributor to many of the other Nanni dealers but I did get the feeling that when it's knackered it's replacement time. 

 

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