Electric Power For Boats On The Broads

[RS2021]

19 hours ago, PaulN said:

Listening to BBC Norfolk this morning they interviewed the BA's newly appointed Carbon Reduction Manager , whose brief is to carry out a study to get all boats on the broads electrically powered for propulsion, heating, hot water and the charging infrastructure to go with it. He said NBD were the representatives from the hire boats, to assist with this. 

Just had a customer survey from NBD heavily focussed on environmentally friendly boating with lots of questions on would I hire an electric hire boat.

[Vaughan]

23 minutes ago, RS2021 said:

Just had a customer survey from NBD heavily focussed on environmentally friendly boating with lots of questions on would I hire an electric hire boat.

I would be very interested if you could post that for us

[NeilB]

50 minutes ago, RS2021 said:

Just had a customer survey from NBD heavily focussed on environmentally friendly boating with lots of questions on would I hire an electric hire boat.

I’d love a link as well if possible please?

[RS2021]

22 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I would be very interested if you could post that for us

 

21 hours ago, NeilB said:

I’d love a link as well if possible please?

Some screenshots of the survey

 

[Vaughan]

21 minutes ago, RS2021 said:

Some screenshots of the survey

Very interesting, thank you.

I suppose a lot of the answers will be guesswork on the part of customers, since it doesn't say what the price is going to be compared to diesel or what the supply of charging points would be like, etc.

I think James is quite right to ask this, since if his business is going to get pressured by a BA initiative, the first thing he needs to know is how his customers are likely to react.  If he spends a huge amount in a new boat investment, is he going to get a return on it?

He is certainly the sort of innovator who would grasp the technology if he thinks it is worth it.  Barnes BC have been doing a lot with electrics for some years now, but only on domestic appliances, not on pure propulsion.

I haven't talked to James yet but I would be very interested to see the result of this survey.  I'll have to see if I can persuade him to publish it!

[Smoggy]

Looks a very reasonable set of questions to ask before someone sat in a comfy office with no clue of boating makes a knee jerk decision to kill off the hire industry and the other industries that depend on it.

[Vaughan]

I have just seen that Griff's post of Saturday evening has been replaced - thank you!

I am possibly the only member here who has actual experience of the operation on hire of purpose built 4 berth pure electric cabin cruisers, on an inland waterway.  I know what it took to set it all up and I know exactly what went so badly wrong with it, in such a short time.  Luckily it wasn't my company that was involved, as I had already spoken out against the idea, with clear reasons why.

This new officer appointment is just environmental politics.  It is pie in the sky and it just ain't going to happen, right now or for decades. The BA, in my considered opinion, are going to be wasting a lot of our money on what amounts to tilting at windmills.

I will do a detailed post about electric boat hiring if members would like me to.

[Meantime]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

I will do a detailed post about electric boat hiring if members would like me to.

That would be very interesting. I suspect one of the biggest issues is going to be getting the charging network in place. Possibly easier to do canal side in urban environments, but far from easy for most of Broadland. In parts of The Waveney valley they have spent money getting rid of overhead cables. You would need a full blown network to support 100's of boats recharging river side.

[Bikertov]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

I will do a detailed post about electric boat hiring if members would like me to.

I would find that really interesting, and for the knock-on effects to the owner-driven boats too.

And without wishing to be controversial, as for a charging network - there isn't an equivalent one for diesel/petrol on the Broads, so why for electric ?

What I mean by that, is there are a number of fuelling stations, mainly located in marinas. But you don't get fuel pumps in the middle of nowhere. 

Conversely, there are numerous electric points in marinas and elsewhere for shore power already, meaning the electric feed is in place, albeit maybe not at the power delivery rating for all electric running. so surely we are half way there before the start ?

[Meantime]

8 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

Conversely, there are numerous electric points in marinas and elsewhere for shore power already, meaning the electric feed is in place, albeit maybe not at the power delivery rating for all electric running. so surely we are half way there before the start ?

The current points are nowhere near capable enough for full scale charging of boats. A typical BA post may have 2 x 16 amp and 1 x 32 amp outlet on it. Compare this to fast chargers for cars on forecourts which are rated at anywhere between 7-22kW. At 240V this is a shade over 4 amps per kW so the 1 x 32 amp outlet is capable of the lower end of forecourt fast charging with the capability to supply one boat with 7-8kW.

If you think the petrol forecourt queues for diesel and petrol are bad now, it would be nothing compared to the queues for fast electric chargers on the Broads without a significant expansion of the network.

I suspect one of our members could give you chapter and verse on the kind of supply infrastructure that would be needed to be installed to supply the kind of power needed to the moorings.

I don't know for sure, but lets assume your average all fully electric boat capable of 5 to 6 hours cruising per day would need a similar battery to that found in your all electric car, then at a mooring for 10 boats you are going to need somewhere in the region of 150 to 200kW supplies or getting on towards 600 amps. Lets be conservative and say that you can afford to charge at a slower rate and most boats stay on a mooring overnight for at least 12 hours then you could half that, but it is still a massive amount. It's not a new or unique problem. Its all very well the government phasing out petrol and diesel cars by 2030, but the countries electric infrastructure simply isn't ready for it.

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

It is pie in the sky and it just ain't going to happen, right now or for decades.

I think Vaughans comment has it absolutely spot on.

[Bikertov]

20 minutes ago, Meantime said:

The current points are nowhere near capable enough for full scale charging of boats. A typical BA post may have 2 x 16 amp and 1 x 32 amp outlet on it. Compare this to fast chargers for cars on forecourts which are rated at anywhere between 7-22kW. At 240V this is a shade over 4 amps per kW so the 1 x 32 amp outlet is capable of the lower end of forecourt fast charging with the capability to supply one boat with 7-8kW.

If you think the petrol forecourt queues for diesel and petrol are bad now, it would be nothing compared to the queues for fast electric chargers on the Broads without a significant expansion of the network.

I suspect one of our members could give you chapter and verse on the kind of supply infrastructure that would be needed to be installed to supply the kind of power needed to the moorings.

I don't know for sure, but lets assume your average all fully electric boat capable of 5 to 6 hours cruising per day would need a similar battery to that found in your all electric car, then at a mooring for 10 boats you are going to need somewhere in the region of 150 to 200kW supplies or getting on towards 600 amps. Lets be conservative and say that you can afford to charge at a slower rate and most boats stay on a mooring overnight for at least 12 hours then you could half that, but it is still a massive amount. It's not a new or unique problem. Its all very well the government phasing out petrol and diesel cars by 2030, but the countries electric infrastructure simply isn't ready for it.

I think Vaughans comment has it absolutely spot on.

You points have validity, and I am no expert especially compared to Vaughan who has far more real-world experience, but how similar would the broads requirements be to cars ?

The typical broads boat had, say, a 50hp diesel engine. Most cars these days average 100hp. So I would suggest the battery requirements would be half that of a car ?

How many active boats are there on the broads at any one time, and how does their usage and hence engine power consumption compare to cars ?

Would a fast charging network be needed, rather than standard charging ?

Can more use be made of solar panels on boats, to top-up batteries during the day ?

Could the broads be in a better place to transition to electric power compared to the road network ?

 

Do understand, I am viewing this from a non-boat owner position, so I may way be totally off the mark, and have no wish to start a controversial discussion, so forgive me if I am completely wrong on this !

[Meantime]

1 minute ago, Bikertov said:

Do understand, I am viewing this from a non-boat owner position, so I may way be totally off the mark, and have no wish to start a controversial discussion, so forgive me if I am completely wrong on this !

Not at all controversial, all discussion is good discussion.

As well as Vaughan I was thinking of Grendel when I mentioned experts in the field. His experience in his day job would I suspect be very good input here.

Whilst I get your point about boat engines being less powerful, that has to be balanced against boats probably covering more hours per day than the average car as well as a lot of other domestic electrical demands on board.

[Vaughan]

4 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

so forgive me if I am completely wrong on this !

No, you are not! You are asking all the right questions.

I will wait to see what other comments there may be, and then I will hope to explain a bit.

Yes, a new thread might be a good idea!

[Bikertov]

It seems there is a good discussion topic to be had for Broads boats transitioning to electric power.

Part of this surrounds the technical aspect of the boat, it's power unit and the fuel source, part is the refuelling infrastructure around the Broads

 

Let loose the arguments both ways !

[vanessan]

3 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I will do a detailed post about electric boat hiring if members would like me to

Yes please, nothing like first hand experiences. 

[NeilB]

There is a small scale fully electric hire boat operation in Norway - https://plugboats.com/world-1st-all-electric-charter-fleet-greenline-yachts/ and https://www.canalboats.no/en/ 

Looks like fuel deposits may still linger on though.... :-)  Found this in the FAQ's - "At the end of the holiday, the boat must be returned fully charged, if it is not, Canal Boats Telemark will deduct part of the deposit or send an invoice corresponding to what it costs to fully recharge the boat."

Personally I believe that, while very expensive, the technology is ready for displacement electric boating on inland waterways, it's the charging infrastructure that is sorely lacking.

[annv]

I do think that electric power is more suitable for private boat use as it will need a certain amount of experience/expertise to manage the recharging, also private boats would most likely do less driving/sailing in a day as against the hirer that wants to do the whole system in a week, it would also need a generator as a back up so unlikely to be 100% electric as  the day boats are, even so generated power by a dedicated generator will use less diesel  and less pollution and noise when compared to 100% diesel driven boat. John

[Oddfellow]

The principal issues with electrifying a hire boat has got to be the charging network which would need charging posts being installed at every mooring. This would be a huge cost at many moorings. Consider Brundall Church Fen. How could you run a large power infrastructure to this location without massive cost both financial and environmental? Massive costs would be felt at almost every mooring location anyway and, it's also fair to ask whether the leases that the BA has for most of these would permit such works and how the BA would have to reinstate the moorings at the end of the leases. 

 

[Bikertov]

Some of my points carried over from the BA thread:

In general, how similar would the broads electric infrastructure requirements be to cars ?

The typical broads boat has, say, a 50hp diesel engine. Most cars these days average 100hp. So I would suggest the battery requirements would be half that of a car ?

How many active boats are there on the broads at any one time, and how does their usage and hence engine power consumption compare to cars ?

Would a fast charging network be needed, rather than standard charging ?

Can more use be made of solar panels on boats, to top-up batteries during the day ?

Could the broads be in a better place to transition to electric power compared to the road network ?

Regarding a charging network - there isn't an equivalent widespread one for diesel/petrol on the Broads, so why should there be for electric ?

What I mean by that, is that there are of course a number of Broads fuelling stations, mainly located in marinas. But you don't get fuel pumps at every mooring, or in the middle of nowhere.

Conversely, there are numerous electric points in marinas and elsewhere for shore power already, meaning the electric feed is in place, albeit maybe not at the power delivery rating for all electric running. so surely we are half way there before the start ?

If you ran out of charge, all you would need is someone turning up with a generator to get you to the nearest charge point, in a similar way that they would turn up with a can of diesel.

[rightsaidfred]

Just to pick up on one point refuelling, diesel only requires a top up occasionally  and can be done in conjunction with a pump out not every few hours like electric would, shore power in marinas is of no use when away from base.

Fred

[Bikertov]

By the way, I make my comments as a neutral non-boat owner (albeit a prospective one), and a firm supporter and admirer of the Broads having holidayed on boats as a child with my family.

With inland/river boats, engine noise is a bad thing, whereas I personally enjoy the engine sound and exhaust note of sports cars etc.

In the same way, cruising speed is limited to c.5mph, whereas on UK roads we are at 70mph and can legally go faster elsewhere.

 

For the record, I have a different stance on electric cars.

[rightsaidfred]

3 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

By the way, I make my comments as a neutral non-boat owner (albeit a prospective one), and a firm supporter and admirer of the Broads having holidayed on boats as a child with my family.

With inland/river boats, engine noise is a bad thing, whereas I personally enjoy the engine sound and exhaust note of sports cars etc.

In the same way, cruising speed is limited to c.5mph, whereas on UK roads we are at 70mph and can legally go faster elsewhere.

 

For the record, I have a different stance on electric cars.

Not really comparable as boats are normally quoted in hours with cars in miles but my diesel car is undoubtedly far more economical  than my boat and has a far greater range on one fill than its electric equivalent would have.

Fred 

[Bikertov]

2 minutes ago, rightsaidfred said:

Just to pick up on one point refuelling, diesel only requires a top up occasionally  and can be done in conjunction with a pump out not every few hours like electric would, shore power in marinas is of no use when away from base.

Fred

I guess it depends on battery capacity, motor power and hence cruising time, comparing like-for-like.

Once you remove a large heavy engine, starter battery and fuel tank, you could have the space for a decent set of propulsion power batteries. Weight and space is also not quite the same issue as with cars. 

Could you combine the propulsion batteries with the domestic batteries, or at least allow an emergency bypass function if you run low.

The boat systems already allow for charging, so it would just need modifications rather than a whole new system.

How many electric hook up points are there currently for shore power away from marinas ? Is it widespread ? (my ignorance on these things is now showing).

 

No doubt someone far more knowledgeable than me, like Vaughan, will shortly drop in and completely demolish my points - but I genuinely welcome the discussion.

[rightsaidfred]

31 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

I guess it depends on battery capacity, motor power and hence cruising time, comparing like-for-like.

Once you remove a large heavy engine, starter battery and fuel tank, you could have the space for a decent set of propulsion power batteries. Weight and space is also not quite the same issue as with cars. 

Could you combine the propulsion batteries with the domestic batteries, or at least allow an emergency bypass function if you run low.

The boat systems already allow for charging, so it would just need modifications rather than a whole new system.

How many electric hook up points are there currently for shore power away from marinas ? Is it widespread ? (my ignorance on these things is now showing).

 

No doubt someone far more knowledgeable than me, like Vaughan, will shortly drop in and completely demolish my points - but I genuinely welcome the discussion.

I will leave the technical stuff to others, there are and can only ever be a limited number of charging points down to access to most locations nowhere near enough to be feasible, I am also of the opinion that electric propulsion is only a short term fix that will be superseded before being fully implemented at a considerable financial cost that will not be recoverable to most who convert, there is certainly far more involved than a change of engine type and batteries.

Fred

[grendel]

the issue is the charging infrastructure, most marinas would not have the current capacity to charge all their boats, so new substations (plural) would be needed, new supply cables, and then the normal few hour handover window would haveto go out of the window, because boats could not be sent out low on charge, a boats fuel will easily last a week, yet electricity would require plugging in every day.

putting charging points at remote locations will be difficult, for the number of boats that will use them daily, its not economically viable, for example I have calculated Hardley cross would cost nearly £1 million to get a supply to as it is miles from anywhere and miles from the nearest network, there are no roads, and overhead lines across the marshes would be a planning no no (as well as electrically insecure) and then any supply capacity would have to be available at the nearest network point.