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grendel

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I was in the Cadet force at school, and we flew Chipmunks under the Air Experience Flight (AEF) program.

Chipmunks were 2 seater propeller aircraft, with the (qualified !) pilot in the front seat and we would be in the back seat with our own set of controls.

The pilot would always handover the controls by saying "You have control", to which we had to respond "I have control now, Sir". If the pilot took the controls back, he would say "I have control now" That way it was a clear protocol in a dual control environment.

Translate that into dual helm boats - you need to have a clear way to ensure the person in control knows it - both audibly and visually with an indicator of some sort. Surely it shouldn't be that difficult to implement a system ?

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29 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

I was in the Cadet force at school, and we flew Chipmunks under the Air Experience Flight (AEF) program.

Chipmunks were 2 seater propeller aircraft, with the (qualified !) pilot in the front seat and we would be in the back seat with our own set of controls.

The pilot would always handover the controls by saying "You have control", to which we had to respond "I have control now, Sir". If the pilot took the controls back, he would say "I have control now" That way it was a clear protocol in a dual control environment.

Translate that into dual helm boats - you need to have a clear way to ensure the person in control knows it - both audibly and visually with an indicator of some sort. Surely it shouldn't be that difficult to implement a system ?

It isn't

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Something important I forgot to mention : dual station Morse controls can only be changed over when both gear levers are in neutral. So changing position when under way means slowing right down, putting the gear lever in neutral and then working the change-over lever.  Naturally this is not recommended, when under way, but I think we all do it, sometimes!

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When we hired a newish dual steer Alpha 35(from Woods) there was no 'change over' lever, we just had to put the station into neutral before recommencing drive on the other one. Not sure who made the system or if it's the one Vaughan mentioned but they were side mount controls rather than top mount.

Seemed a nice simple arrangement, minimal input required from the user. I dont think both levers moved at the same time though.

 

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How important are dual controls really? A week or 2 on hire, you could try an alternative layout boat next time. By the time you've decided (and are lucky enough) to own your own boat you have an idea of what style you prefer.

Of course, if you are like me (and a few others here 😁) you can enjoy a boat (or 3 😂) and change until you find "the one"

Dual steer strikes me as a gimmick, although the weather is a factor in it's favour it's possible with any style of boat to cruise comfortably in most conditions!

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2 hours ago, Bikertov said:

I was in the Cadet force at school, and we flew Chipmunks under the Air Experience Flight (AEF) program.

Chipmunks were 2 seater propeller aircraft, with the (qualified !) pilot in the front seat and we would be in the back seat with our own set of controls.

The pilot would always handover the controls by saying "You have control", to which we had to respond "I have control now, Sir". If the pilot took the controls back, he would say "I have control now" That way it was a clear protocol in a dual control environment.

Translate that into dual helm boats - you need to have a clear way to ensure the person in control knows it - both audibly and visually with an indicator of some sort. Surely it shouldn't be that difficult to implement a system ?

Not with our sailing boats, but with our family's power boats, from being very young on my dad's Fairey Huntsman and every boat after, inc. Our Shetland Black Hawk, out to the beach boat, when changing over we always said " You have the boat "  Response "I have the boat".

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25 minutes ago, Ray said:

How important are dual controls really?

In my days of hiring we mainly hired dual steering boats, but mainly steered from outside. My own boat is a centre cockpit sliding roof boat as it seemed like the ideal compromise, but in reality I've realised that there are way too many times when there is a slight precipitation and the roof goes up to keep the interior dry, whereas in the days of hiring dual steer we would have toughed it out and put on a water proof jacket and stayed outside. However if it turned torrential, then it's nice to have the internal steering position.

Confession time. On one occasion of hiring a dual steer boat we had only used the outside helm position. On reaching Thorpe and deciding to go under the bridge we needed to switch to the internal helm. This was duly done only to find the throttle didn't work inside. Several attempts at switching controls back and forth and it just wouldn't work. As the plan was to stay at Thorpe for the night, there was nothing else to do but improvise. We switched the controls over to the inside helm and found that although the internal throttle didn't work the external one still did. That was it then, one of us steered from inside, whilst issuing throttle instructions to the one outside laying down on the floor of the external helm position with absolutely no view. The only other time we used the inside helm position was for the return journey back under the bridge.

Since this is a thread about boat safety I perhaps shouldn't have mentioned that. I will however mention that it amazes me the amount of times I see boats being taken through Wroxham bridge with pilots and there are people standing on the back of the boat videoing the passage, and ducking down at the last minute as the boat passes through the bridge. Another area that perhaps needs addressing?

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What should be addressed are the accidents which will inevitably happen because of bad boat design. One which stands out to me because there are so many of them on the Broads are the Broadsman style boats.

I know that there are notices on the boat telling you that onone should sit on the rear when the boat is moving but people do.There should be either no seats there or there should be a guardrail around.At present if that boat is hit or hits something you will be straight off the back if your sitting there.

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Even if there had been visual indicators showing the 1st station in gear the 2nd throttle can still rev the engine, just pull the lever out and push.  You'd need a system where neither the throttle or gear can be moved unless all controls are in neutral, these are common place on electronic engine controls but I've not seen one for mechanical Morse controls.

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52 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

May I ask who or what is 

The Association of Inland Water Authorities ?

https://aina.org.uk/

"AINA is the industry membership body in Great Britain for organisations with statutory or other legal responsibility for the management, maintenance and operation of navigable inland waterways for navigation.

Collectively, we regard such bodies as ‘Inland Navigation Authorities’. In discharging their duties, navigation authorities deliver widespread public benefits."

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Thank Ray.

That's what I got when I googled it.

It does not really tell us anything about its members, it's power's or lack of.

I only ask as they seem to be opposed to the installation of indicator devices or interlocks on dual helm boats.

I am finding it difficult to understand why?

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4 hours ago, FlyingFortress said:

I only ask as they seem to be opposed to the installation of indicator devices or interlocks on dual helm boats.

I am finding it difficult to understand why?

I am not opposed to their installation but I am rather sceptical about their actual practical usefulness.  Any more so, than I think an accident might have been prevented if the stop button were painted red instead of black.  Surely, when a boat is under way, the lever which is in forward gear is the one which is selected.  If you go to a control which is in neutral and cannot move the lever forward, then you know that station is not selected.  It doesn't need to be more complicated than that.

In Crown Blue Line I have operated literally hundreds of hire boats with Morse dual steering, over 25 years and we have had little or no problem with it.  Hirers do get in a muddle with it sometimes but I cannot recall us having a serious accident caused by confusion in its use.  It does, however, need precise explanation to hirers during the trial run.  There is no doubt of that!

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9 hours ago, MrBlueSky said:

What should be addressed are the accidents which will inevitably happen because of bad boat design. One which stands out to me because there are so many of them on the Broads are the Broadsman style boats.

I know that there are notices on the boat telling you that onone should sit on the rear when the boat is moving but people do.There should be either no seats there or there should be a guardrail around.At present if that boat is hit or hits something you will be straight off the back if your sitting there.

We would regularly hire that type of boat because we have large dogs and a guardrail / pulpit is difficult for them to duck under, especially when stern moored at low tide

I wouldn't like to see these boats requiring to be changed due to a tragic accident

We understand the risks when moving around the outside of the boat and take precautions.

I have walked down the side of a boat and tripped over the centre cleat before, and luckily I remained on the boat, but I wouldn't advocate removing all centre cleats for example

 

 

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Perhaps it is worth discussing handrails and things, and their use on the Broads.

There are no specific inland waterways building standards in Europe or the UK, so those countries use ERCD cat.D as a minimum standard.  Most production cruiser designs are built to cat C, so that they can be sold as offshore versions but on the Broads they are on a cat D navigation.  The standards used to depend on distance offshore but nowadays they relate to wave height and wind strength.  I seem to remember that cat D is waves of half a metre and winds of force 4, which is not much!

Cat D says that all hull openings, etc, must be a minimum 40cm above the waterline, so these modern designs with the aft "bathing platform" deck will be at the minimum height allowed.  They would certainly not pass cat C, either for the deck height or the aft French window type access door.

Pulpit rails (around the edge of the bow) are used at sea when handling anchors and of course, when handling sails. They are not appropriate on the Broads as they get in the way when getting on and off with mooring ropes. On some boats they prevent this altogether and you have to get off from the stern!  Same applies to a "pushpit" rail across the stern, which is just an encumbrance when mooring stern on.  What is needed on the Broads is a "pilot" rail, which goes around the cabin top at the inboard side of the deck, so that you always have a rail to hold on to, but you don't have to clamber over it to get off.  Same principle applies to the aft deck, where handrails should be provided on the inboard side of the deck.

In my opinion, if the design of the narrow, low, aft platform deck is such a potential hazard that it needs an aft guardrail, this is more akin to treating the symptoms, but not the illness. I am also very concerned that a lot of these designs are such that anyone standing on the narrow aft platform cannot be seen by the helmsman from either of the helm positions.

 

105188343_PilotRails.thumb.jpg.716646b343b04bc0df67ea2d9cd5bf34.jpg

An example of a pilot rail, on a boat with single level, generous side decks with handrails over the entire length, at the same height all round. What I call a safe and practical inland waterways design.

Built incidentally, to cat C.

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thats interesting, I was watching a video of a pilot boat taking off a pilot in heavy weather and did note the pilot rail all around the boat, under a metre from the deck edge, except for the one area where the rubbing strake was thickened up, and which was the area for embarkation and disembarkation, here the pilot rail carried round across the deck, and a second section of pilot rail went around the bow and back across the deck, giving an area about 1m wide where you could stand and hold 2 rails, i also noticed that the crew member who went to the bow to assist the disembarking pilot clipped a safety line to one of those rails, with a pilot rail you can be clipped on a safety line without restricting your movement when anchoring or mooring up.

I have always believed that those steps at the rear of a lot of the boats are a safety concern, as there is such a small area at the bottom to take that last step, though short of moving the steps I dont see a solution other than additional hand rails or a guard rail at that point.

maybe clip on safety lines could form part of the solution, but then that comes back to the choice of wearing one, similarly to lifejackets.

I believe its now well documented that the only time I have taken an accidental dunking was while wearing a lifejacket, though it is a manual kind and not automatic, but at the time I chose not to bother deploying it as I was relatively safe in the water, and comfortable in my ability not to drown, finding a suitable place on the bank to get out of the water was the biggest issue, and when I did it was by rolling like a seal onto a slipway, where an inflated lifejacket would have made this manouver nigh on impossible. the lifejacket is always ready to hand near the helm position, and though there are places where I dont wear it when going on deck, there are others such as Breydon, that I will always put it on before venturing on deck, once again - that is down to personal choice. though if you are a novice or uncertain I would always advise wearing on on deck.

I would put one on for instance if planning to moor at Great Yarmouth, or other tidal area with strong currents. Also a lot will depend on the mooring and access to posts, as I have a centre cleat, i do like to use that for initial mooring and if I can achieve that initial mooring without leaving the boat, I will do, as once i have one centre line on and secure, I can take my time with all the other lines.

another point that I have to stress is clear communication, between helm and crew, the helm should clearly state what he is about to do when mooring and tell the crew what to expect, they in turn should clearly communicate that they have understood, and also communicate when their part is done.

an example of mooring up from lads week would be-

Helm,- deploy starboard fenders, i want someone fore and someone aft to take the ropes ashore and tie fast.

crew response - starboard fenders deployed, forward ropes ready - aft ropes ready

come alongside - crew ashore with mooring lines

crew, - stern line fast, fore line fast.

after a departure, a report to the helm that fenders were up, and that all the ropes were secure (cheesed) would be passed to the helm (and if you are really clever you can pass this to the helm before he needs to ask for it to be done, as its a standard procedure).

this is just an example of what helm / crew communication should be, everyone clear what they should be doing, and everyone reporting the status back to the helm.

normally communication isnt a problem, you can just shout forward, though we do have multiple pmr radios aboard should that be necessary, maybe some form of intercom system could be fitted to dual helms to facilitate communication between helm locations that dont have a direct easy verbal communication path.

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I do feel this report is missing a glaring point... that being the location of the GYYS itself.  It's positioned far too close to bridges, which on ebb tide can create a cause of panic, the river there is far far to narrow to even considering trying to turn to moor.  The strength of the current there is obviously the strongest on any of the broads and clearly very different from anywhere where initial handover was done. 

Whilst it may always have been there it is certainly in the wrong location and really should be closed, the river there should only be used for passage only. The old marina keys spot would be a far better location. 

Anyways I know it's been said many times before and it wont be moved for every reason under the sun. But everything crossed one day it will be as sadly this will happen again.

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Grendal

The rail around the exterior of a Pilot Boat is called a Hadrian's Rail.

The track runs around the house of The Pilot Boat. There are no external guard rails. The idea is to get The Pilot off the boat. The deckhand will clip a safely belt to a traveller on the rail. This allows the deckhand free access All around the boat with both hands free to grab the pilot if he /she stumbles. This happens a lot when the weather is poor and the boat is moving vertically 2m or more. Timing is everything. Pilots do not clip on as once again the idea is to get off the boat onto the ship. If we did clip on and ended up going over the side we would be suspended just above the water with a 15 ton boat smashing us to a pulp between the boat and Ship. Certain death. 

The preferred boarding place is as you say where the enhanced fendering is in the shoulders of the boat but there are many circumstances when this has to be done at other places hence the Hadrian's Rail being all around the pilot boat.

Communication and trust are key here particularly when disembarking as one cannot see where you are going.

The scenario you explained for Lads Week seems a bit elaborate to me 

Mrs FF 

What side to.

Me 

Port/ Starboard

Mrs FF then steps off the boat when alongside with a bow and stern line in hand. She then either ties off the bow line ( tidal) or holds the boat until I step off (non tidal) and together we run springs and head and stern lines.

Simples

 

 

 

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Is the yacht station in the wrong place, or is it being used by increasingly more and more unsuitable boats?

I won't go anywhere near the yacht station on an ebb unless I know I can get through the bridge, but then I only need 6ft 6in with screen and roof down. I have a no turning zone from about 200yards before the start of the yacht station on an ebb tide. If I cannot make it through I turn before reaching the yacht station. Some of the modern boats have no chance of making it under the bridge at anything but close to low water and then should only be in the area at slack water or just after.

Perhaps, and I know there will be a lot of negativity around this, but perhaps there could be a height sensor across the Bure near Marina Keys with anything triggering the sensor on an ebb tide being advised by a flashing sign to turn back immediately.

I personally wouldn't turn my boat at 35ft on an ebb at or below the yacht station, let alone anything longer.

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As sad and unfortunate an incident as this is you can't totally design out human error. If that was the case we wouldn't have any planes crashing would we. Most of us have probably experience being on deck whilst the boat has bumped something, even the slightest jult could easily send you into the water let alone a big impact. I can see why they design boats like this and infact I quite like them. My siblings and me are onboard a broadsman in a few weeks time and my youngest sister mentioned the seat on the stern and the need to careful whilst underway.

(Moderation edit.)

Sadly this won't be the last accident on the broads and more needs to be done around inexperienced crews taking charge of such big craft. Personally I don't believe the boat to be of a dangerous design its been in there fleet for some time now and is very popular.  I'm not aware of any other accidents involving this class of boats. P

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Vaughan.

I do agree with you that rails are not the ultimate solution.

Boat design is the biggest problem. 

Being unable to see crew from the helm while manoeuvring is asking for trouble and it was only a matter of time before the inevitable happened.

I don't however agree that modifications cannot be made to changeover of helm controls. 

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A lot has been made of the low stern on this type of boat and the ability to step of the back, or stumble down steps and into the water. However it should also be taken into consideration how difficult it can be to recover someone from the water if they have inadvertently gone in. With soaking wet clothes increasing their weight dramatically it can be very difficult to recover someone back on board. In such circumstances I can see many advantages to a low stern design.

On my own boat we had experience of someone stepping into the water whilst moored at our home berth and the trouble we had getting them back out again, even onto the pontoon which was lower than the deck of my boat.

In the end we achieved it by taking a mooring line along the side of the boat and dipping it into the water and tying it off further along the boat. The person in the water was then able to step onto the rope and walk sideways up it. We then took their weight whilst the rope was made shorter and then they were able to walk further sideways until we eventually got them on to the pontoon.

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