Boat Safety

[JawsOrca]

8 minutes ago, Meantime said:

Is the yacht station in the wrong place, or is it being used by increasingly more and more unsuitable boats?

More reason that its in the wrong location if the boats using it now are more unsuited for safely using it.

I certainly agree there should be more signage there, traffic signals perhaps if its clearly unsafe to attempt to moor from the direction the boat is currently going, and clearly indicate, turn now or do not turn keep going type thing.  Although painful it keeps to still consider the competence of the average waterway user and the poor design of a boat.  

Personally I disagree that pushpits should help, they would soon smash off when the stern hits the wall with 6kts of current and a crew throwing the boat in reverse as they panic to avoid crashing..

 

[NotDeadYet]

15 hours ago, Ray said:

Dual steer strikes me as a gimmick

Not if visibility is limited from 'down below'.

[Meantime]

6 minutes ago, JawsOrca said:

More reason that its in the wrong location if the boats using it now are more unsuited for safely using it.

Perhaps the answer is for some boats based upon their length, height and power etc to be given a limit of navigation on The Bure that they must not pass without permission from the yacht station, who would give such permission based upon the ability to be able to proceed under both bridges to turn before returning back up The Bure to moor safely against the tide. 

[andyg]

13 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

That's what I was told in no uncertain terms earlier in the discussion.

And also why I have curtailed my answers. 

Then what's the point in having a debate if you aren't allowed to discuss all aspects? Pretty pointless in my opinion. 

[grendel]

17 minutes ago, Meantime said:

I thought we weren't discussing specifics of this particular incident?

we are not supposed to be, eg we could have a discussion on inadequate handovers, but quoting specifics from the report would be frowned upon. similarly we can discuss the advisability of turning by the yacht station, but should not be quoting the report. so we ask as we have before that we keep this discussion more generalised and refrain from quoting from the report. Thanks

[Meantime]

1 minute ago, andyg said:

Then what's the point in having a debate if you aren't allowed to discuss all aspects? Pretty pointless in my opinion. 

Not our rules unfortunately. It was made pretty plain at the start of this thread and it was reinforced further down as well. Oops and just above as well. 

[grendel]

29 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

The scenario you explained for Lads Week seems a bit elaborate to me 

its probably elaborate, but most of our skippers are ex navy, and though most of us know each other to some degree, we are a group of lads from all ends of the country, so its better that we make clear instructions and acknowledgements, that way people know what they are expected to do and the helm knows when its been  done.

its just the way we keep things shipshape.

thanks for the information re pilot boats, thats pretty much what I watched happen on the video, the swells were probably 8 foot (and that on the lee side of the cargo vessel) and the timing of the pilots boarding of the pilot cutter was at the top of a wave. with the deckhand on hand to assist the pilot.

[grendel]

I thought there was a sign already above the yacht station stating no turning downstream of this point, - go under the bridges and turn past the yellow post (or similar)

[andyg]

2 minutes ago, grendel said:

I thought there was a sign already above the yacht station stating no turning downstream of this point, - go under the bridges and turn past the yellow post (or similar)

There is..

[NotDeadYet]

A couple of years ago, I was downstream the Bure on an ebbing tide and called ahead to GY yacht station who told me we would be OK to run through the bridges.  When we were abeam the yacht station, a somewhat excited ranger told us to turn before the bridges and moor at the yacht station.  I assumed something had happened out of sight ahead and followed instructions.  Although the ebb was very strong, there was no real problem doing this. It later transpired that the ranger had not been told about the earlier conversation and assumed we were wanting to moor.

I mention this episode for general information - you can turn before the bridges on an ebb, if you have to.

[Meantime]

Just now, grendel said:

I thought there was a sign already above the yacht station stating no turning downstream of this point, - go under the bridges and turn past the yellow post (or similar)

I think there is a sign that says no turning here by Everitt Marine Services because of damage in the past to their home, but more importantly what happens if your on a boat to tall to pass the bridges if you've arrived on an ebb too far ahead of slack water. Such signage needs to be further back by Marina Keys and the crew on board need to have been made explicitly aware of the dangers of arriving at the wrong state of tide on certain taller boats which don't have screens and roofs that can be lowered.

I will keep biting my tongue on the pricing structure and periods covered at Yarmouth yacht station. Those who know me already know my views on that one. 

[Meantime]

1 minute ago, NotDeadYet said:

I mention this episode for general information - you can turn before the bridges on an ebb.

However it is something I would never want to do and would avoid at all costs.

[NotDeadYet]

1 minute ago, Meantime said:

However it is something I would never want to do and would avoid at all costs

Agreed.  Hence I added a small edit.  I only turned because of a ranger's instruction.

[Ray]

Raise the bridges... nice civil engineering project! Infrastructure spending! Jobs!

Make Yarmouth great again!

# MYGA

😁

 

 

 

[Meantime]

2 minutes ago, Ray said:

Raise the bridges... nice civil engineering project! Infrastructure spending! Jobs!

Make Yarmouth great again!

# MYGA

😁

 

 

 

Oh the irony, it's not so long ago that they actually lowered one of the bridges!, but they did manage to repaint most of it! 

[Ray]

10 minutes ago, Meantime said:

Oh the irony, it's not so long ago that they actually lowered one of the bridges!, but they did manage to repaint most of it! 

I didn't know that! Which one?

[FlyingFortress]

2 minutes ago, NotDeadYet said:

Agreed.  Hence I added a small edit.  I only turned because of a ranger's instruction.

Rangers are not infallible. I have been yelled at to turn around at GTY when there was more than sufficient clearance for me. I have also been yelled at Reedham when I was coming in to moor stern to tide. 

But I don't let it bother me as I do know my boat looks like a hire boat from the front.

[Meantime]

27 minutes ago, Ray said:

I didn't know that! Which one?

The old rail bridge had some timbers added to the underneath to protect it and this reduced the headroom by about three inches.

[Andrewcook]

Hi as to you own private Boat you got the power as to Hired Boats been Goven down to 5or 6 mph As this is where the trouble starts but it is a shame as this does stop the Hirers speeding all over the Broads. 

[WherryNice]

There are a great many variable risk factors in boating but many of them are countered by the simple stuff; Hold on whenever you move about, don't move about when the boat is manouvering/mooring unless you are directly involved, ensure that ALL crew have a basic understanding of the controls(for example I specifically like to show newbie guests where the engine stop lever is and how to use it as I know most will just turn the key if I shouted to stop the engine).

With regard to the fundamental safety of Low freeboard stern designs, I would think that it's just as easy to fall off a boat with a high stern, not many have rails and once you have slipped or been propelled over the edge the height doesn't seem to be a factor to me though I can think of scenarios where both types are worse than each other.

The visibility of crew from the helm is probably more of a concern but then again, how well can the helm see a crew member standing on the stern of a 44ft Bounty fwd steer?

I agree that push/pulpits are a pain on Broads cruiser to the extent that I removed the pulpit on mine as it hindered fore deck access quite badly.

A simple(oversized) light system to show which helm is active might help in certain circumstances but I don't feel that there is an inherent problem there and adding more complexity to the systems may cause other issues.

When serious incidents occur it's easy to look and say if this or that was different it wouldn't have happened and it is right to discuss and look into what could and should be done to help prevent future incidents but this needs to be done with care as 'fixing' one issue could easily cause others.

My personal experience of hire boat handovers is a little dated now but I have been both impressed and unimpresssed(from a sample of 2) about the way they were conducted.

 

 

 

[Vaughan]

2 hours ago, FlyingFortress said:

I don't however agree that modifications cannot be made to changeover of helm controls. 

I didn't say that - I simply doubted that changes to the installation would necessarily make it safer.  I also mentioned the trial run and the importance of precise explanation of the controls.  Safety is about the safe installation of the equipment and the training of the operator to use it safely.

 I could suggest (as I do on a trial run) that the change-over should only be made when the boat is moored up.  That is the safe and proper way to use the equipment.  Hirers will later totally ignore this advice and indeed, I do so myself!  To do so is potentially dangerous all the same.

[eddybear]

5 hours ago, Vaughan said:

An example of a pilot rail

And another example of the pilot rail fitted to the bow of my boat, Identical to the ones fitted to the Broads authority Boats, Allowing you a handhold when crossing from one side of the boat to the other where a pulpit fitted in the normal way might cause a problem with changing mooring warps from one side to the other.

[annv]

By removing the disused metal rail bridge then jack up the road bridge (it only rests on the flood wall) would remove many of the problems at the yacht station along with a unsightly rusty mess. John

[andyg]

I've turned around before at the yacht station and it can be quite a challenge at times with the tides. Quite daunting tho I would imagine for a novice crew and a large boat. All you need is the wind and tide going in the same direction and you've got problems with a boat that high. It becomes one big sail. P

[JawsOrca]

2 hours ago, NotDeadYet said:

A couple of years ago, I was downstream the Bure on an ebbing tide and called ahead to GY yacht station who told me we would be OK to run through the bridges.  When we were abeam the yacht station, a somewhat excited ranger told us to turn before the bridges and moor at the yacht station.  I assumed something had happened out of sight ahead and followed instructions.  Although the ebb was very strong, there was no real problem doing this. It later transpired that the ranger had not been told about the earlier conversation and assumed we were wanting to moor.

I mention this episode for general information - you can turn before the bridges on an ebb, if you have to.

I've seen the same on a number of occasions... I won't say too much but I'm looking forward to day I meet one who has the right idea.