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grendel

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wussername, I can see this is a workable system, apart from one area- how would boat owners of several years (maybe decades) come about by their accreditation, it falls under the grandfather rights you mention, but could be ongoing many years after the change was made

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2 hours ago, Tempest said:

I must admit, I would regularly sign the declaration to say I could handle the boat and didn't need a trial run, I was content with a walk through and around the vessel to find out where all the "bits" where located

I found the trial run a waste of time as it usually meant slow manoeuvres in a marina, or onto a river with little tidal changes or current and back to drop off the employee (normally at Stalham)

I really don't know what you can do to change this as each boatyard is located in different places and none can replicate the issues you would have at the various locations around the broads

I really can't see trial runs being of much benefit unless there are a set number of manoeuvres that must be completed to confirm a level of competence which all the hire yards adhere to

 

My thoughts exactly.  A trial run, a stern on mooring and a side on mooring completed in the relatively still waters at Stalham, frankly would have partial relevance to the same manoeuvres completed of the southern rivers or at Yarmouth.

Lets be fair, when we took our driving tests in cars, we only learnt how to pass the test.  We learned how to drive after the test was completed and we started to fend for ourselves.  The same applied when I passed my HGV 1, to a degree.  The test comprised set manoeuvres off road, with a drive through varying traffic conditions followed by truck related questions.  After I’d passed and had to back an artic into a warehouse to load, the actual manoeuvre was different to the one in the test and I had to think about what I was doing very carefully.

The major difference between the boat and a car is the variable of the current.  Although the same principles apply, in practice the actual manoeuvres are very different when compensating for wind and tidal direction.

As others have said, I had to help several folk moor last week at How Hill, Loddon and Ranworth.  Stern mooring appears to cause most difficulties, with much steering wheel twirling when going astern and the helms wondering why the boat isn’t responding as anticipated.

Frankly, I don’t know what can be done to improve handover training.  You will still not achieve a thorough understanding of boat handling even if you extended the handover to a couple of hours.

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Just to add that by far the biggest hurdle to all these training ideas is "experience"

You cant learn to drive from a book just as you cant helm from a book. 

And there is no way any hand over is going to teach you all the tricks and remain viable.

You learn over time, each and every moment adds to the total. Windy weather, rain and nutters on paddle boards.

Its all about the mistakes and how to make these mistakes not end in disaster. 

Now, as others have said, its all about the design of the boat to make it easy to use.

Duel helm lock outs with no fail areas. Rope hooks for the mooring lines, rails and handles and doors that don't open out to an unprotected deck. Mirrors even to cover those spots.

Design out as much as you can and what's left should not end a life

 

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34 minutes ago, Cheesey69 said:

Design out as much as you can and what's left should not end a life

Better remove the propellor then, because as long as there’s one of those spinny, choppy things under the stern, there remains a major risk to anyone who falls in.  Furthermore, you can’t teach stupid!  Idiots on boats ignoring the rules will always have the potential to fall in.  How many times have you seen people standing on the rooves of boats with water pistols, fooling about and with no thought to the potential consequences of their actions?  It’s not just young men, either.  Women are equally capable of flirting with idiotic antics as I witnessed a couple of years ago when a party of them were on a picnic boat.  The front well was full, a couple were sitting, dangling their feet over the bow and about three were sitting on the roof above the helm.  The bow was deep in the water and I was surprised that the prop was still submerged enough to actually cause the boat to go forward.

Ive said before and will say again, you’ll never mitigate against a fatality ever  happening again.

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Wussername 

What an excellent and well considered post. You have obviously given this subject a lot of thought.

It does to me seem a workable idea particularly when coupled with the digital suggestion by DAVIDH.

As for someone like myself who is a long term owner who decides to hire my opinion is just take the hit and do a full trial run as I would not be able to offer an acceptable audit trail.

What have I got to lose an hour of my time no Biggie.

 

 

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Last time I hired a boat from Richardson's I hired broads suncharm. A boat I've hired a few times now, I was still taken out on a trial run and was happy to. Only changes to the boat I was aware of was the original water heating system had been changed. Last October we hired both dazzling light and Prince of light from woods, both from there elite fleet. Dazzling is one of there big dual steer fleet with the full sun deck job up top table bench seats sun loungers. Prince is one of there new compact cruiser fleet. No river trial on either boat. To be honest it wasn't the 1st time I'd hired a boat like dazzling, so I was aware of the helm change over bow thrusters etc etc. I was more nervous of taking prince out as we don't normally hire a boat that small. So standards do vary quite a bit from yard to yard. I was quite surprised that wood would allow a customer they didn't know take control of two of there newish boats without accessing my competence to handle either boat.. 

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2 hours ago, Mouldy said:

Frankly, I don’t know what can be done to improve handover training.  You will still not achieve a thorough understanding of boat handling even if you extended the handover to a couple of hours.

I have a saying which I always use at the end of a trial run to novice hirers :

Please don't forget that I cannot teach you how to handle a boat.  I can only show you the methods to follow and the rest is all practice.  Half the fun of your holiday will be learning how to do it.

Does that describe the first time experience for other members of this forum, who now have graduated to owning their own boats?  How many years did it take you to learn how to drive your boat as well as you do now?  Could you bring a boat stern on into the Maltsters quay perfectly, on your first evening out from Stalham, or Potter?

Of course not.

So why do you think that more documentation and registration on a boatyard, is going to improve that?

I once said here, that when I get on board a boat to give a trial run, I reckon I can tell within about 20 seconds whether the party have been before or not.  Wussername's reply was : "No it's 2 seconds. I just look at their shoes".

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3 hours ago, grendel said:

wussername, I can see this is a workable system, apart from one area- how would boat owners of several years (maybe decades) come about by their accreditation, it falls under the grandfather rights you mention, but could be ongoing many years after the change was made

Well I would have a marker on the system to show that the customer claims previous experience despite not being on the system so that the instructor can tailor their approach(maybe call it a 'refresher' or something but other than that you just have to go through the system same as any other person. Might be beneficial anyway, brush up a few basics perhaps?

 

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I went on a Sunseaker weeks tuition in the Mediterranean many years ago we had inboard and out drive boats to learn on each with a qualified instructor their was four to a boat after a weeks tuition half the people couldn't moor or maneuver the boats properly and as for reading a compass at night,  in spit of their buying a several hundred thousand pounds of boat they were clueless one of the thirty something guy stock broker i think, demolished a pontoon commodity post, all he was interested was pushing the throttle wide open just like he did in his Ferrari, so what chance has a new hirer in 45mins going to be able to do?  SAFETY is the most important thing you are only going to achieve if you are lucky. John

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1 hour ago, annv said:

I went on a Sunseaker weeks tuition in the Mediterranean many years ago we had inboard and out drive boats to learn on each with a qualified instructor their was four to a boat after a weeks tuition half the people couldn't moor or maneuver the boats properly and as for reading a compass at night,  in spit of their buying a several hundred thousand pounds of boat they were clueless one of the thirty something guy stock broker i think, demolished a pontoon commodity post, all he was interested was pushing the throttle wide open just like he did in his Ferrari, so what chance has a new hirer in 45mins going to be able to do?  SAFETY is the most important thing you are only going to achieve if you are lucky. John

I really am surprised that after a week of intensive training that half the class were still unable to moor safely.:default_icon_e_surprised:

Having said that some while back a private boat came into moor at Ranworth , forward drive Bounty,and it was clear the guy did not have a clue about boat handling. With quite a bit of help from others he was eventually pulled into the mooring. We happened to be sat close to him in the pub later on and he mentioned that he had only just bought the boat. I mentioned what I did for a living and I offered to give him some tuition the following morning which he accepted greatfully. The following morning I boarded his boat and we went over to the island which was empty. Under instruction he backed up to the quay over and over again but only made limited progress. After the best part of an hour I thought he could progress no more and called time on the exercise. He was able to complete the manouvre but I could tell he was never going to be a natural. On the way back to the Staithe he said he did not have so much trouble with his other boat."Other boat?" He owned a 45' Sealine that he regularly took to The Continent :default_icon_e_surprised:

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Quite early on in my career as a Pilot in The Largest Port in The Country we had to let a bloke go who simply wasn't making the grade. He had been a senior Captain on a cross channel ferry doing multiple dockings and sailings every day in all weathers. He simply could not make the transition from high powered high performance ships to the low powered "heavy" ships that we had to deal with every day. I had also come from high performance ships and it did take a bit of getting used to. 

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1 hour ago, annv said:

I went on a Sunseaker weeks tuition in the Mediterranean many years ago we had inboard and out drive boats to learn on each with a qualified instructor their was four to a boat after a weeks tuition half the people couldn't moor or maneuver the boats properly and as for reading a compass at night,  in spit of their buying a several hundred thousand pounds of boat they were clueless one of the thirty something guy stock broker i think, demolished a pontoon commodity post, all he was interested was pushing the throttle wide open just like he did in his Ferrari, so what chance has a new hirer in 45mins going to be able to do?  SAFETY is the most important thing you are only going to achieve if you are lucky. John

We recall sitting watching a very large (approx 60ft), very expensive, sea going, private vessel trying to moor side on in Brundall on the main river Yare with a skipper on board who obviously had no idea what he was doing

He messed around for at least 30 minutes before he "luckily" managed to get in, during which this vessel was stern in, bow in, 90 degrees to the quay and much worse!

He obviously was using a vessel he had absolutely no idea how to manoeuvre.

I was refueling at the time and was told by the quay attendant that they get loads buying boats worth up to £1 million who have no idea how to handle a boat and don't even bother to get any training!

So I fully understand!

 

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I think that there is a great deal of difference between handling a ship and a cruiser on The Broads, although I speak from conjecture rather that experience.  Having just finished a week in Moonlight Shadow, which is equipped with a bow thruster, I had no issues whatsoever with mooring, either side or stern on anywhere.  I’d actually forgotten how easy she is to handle.  Our boat is taller, therefore more affected by the wind, lighter and has no bow thruster.  Although I am well versed on how to moor, occasionally I do find it more challenging and do have to exercise the control lever more frequently than I’d perhaps like to to complete a manoeuvre .

I don’t think that it’s necessarily a reflection on my ability, but has something to do with the characteristics of the boat.  Fortunately, it doesn’t suffer from prop walk to any extent, but I’ve seen folk who are very competent helms struggle with that.

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18 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

I think that there is a great deal of difference between handling a ship and a cruiser on The Broads, although I speak from conjecture rather that experience.  Having just finished a week in Moonlight Shadow, which is equipped with a bow thruster, I had no issues whatsoever with mooring, either side or stern on anywhere.  I’d actually forgotten how easy she is to handle.  Our boat is taller, therefore more affected by the wind, lighter and has no bow thruster.  Although I am well versed on how to moor, occasionally I do find it more challenging and do have to exercise the control lever more frequently than I’d perhaps like to to complete a manoeuvre .

I don’t think that it’s necessarily a reflection on my ability, but has something to do with the characteristics of the boat.  Fortunately, it doesn’t suffer from prop walk to any extent, but I’ve seen folk who are very competent helms struggle with that.

The principles are exactly the same.

It's the consequences of getting it wrong is the biggest difference 🤣

Leisure craft are hugely over powered in relation to even the highest performance ships. Of course the windage is much higher as well. On some of the largest ships we calculate the windage in hundreds of tonnes so we have sufficient Bollard Pull available on the tugs.

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27 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

The principles are exactly the same.

It's the consequences of getting it wrong is the biggest difference 🤣

Leisure craft are hugely over powered in relation to even the highest performance ships. Of course the windage is much higher as well. On some of the largest ships we calculate the windage in hundreds of tonnes so we have sufficient Bollard Pull available on the tugs.

I would have thought that with a high vantage point from the bridge, coupled with powerful bow and stern thrusters and surely more than one screw would increase the ability to accurately control difficult manoeuvres in tight spaces more easily than a comparatively light glass fibre craft, possibly with a hydraulic bow thruster, low helm position and a single engine.

I guess you learn something every day.

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17 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

I would have thought that with a high vantage point from the bridge, coupled with powerful bow and stern thrusters and surely more than one screw would increase the ability to accurately control difficult manoeuvres in tight spaces more easily than a comparatively light glass fibre craft, possibly with a hydraulic bow thruster, low helm position and a single engine.

I guess you learn something every day.

The vast majority of ships are single screw with a direct reversing engine. No gearbox ,when you stop the engine, the engine physically stops. To go astern the firing order of the engine is reversed so the engine actually runs backwards.

Bow Thusters are common but although some of the largest are 3000kw the effect on a large ship is very sluggish and tugs are used in addition. It could take an age to turn a large ship around in still water just using engine and bow thruster. Bow Thusters decrease effectiveness when there is headway and become useless when speed gets to around 5kts so very much diminished effect when stopped over the ground in a 4kt+ current.

Stern Thrusters are fairly rare as is twin screw.

Remember some of the largest ships are displacing ( weighing) close to 300,000 tonnes. 

It's all about the power to weight ratio.

This is me at the office.

Those tugs are 33m long approx 100' and all 4 of them over 80t Bollard Pull.

Those containers are 40` long so each is a large truck. IIRC that ship is 18000teu so can carry 18000 twenty ft containers or 9000 40 footers.

The largest at the moment are 24000teu

IMG_2268_2.jpg

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View from inside and outside the wheelhouse when turning around off the berth.

She is not even full and it is much worse when she is ( boxed out)

I will add (edit) I was second Pilot on this one so I was in a co pilot role so not actually handling to explain how I managed to take the photos. The UASC photo was taken by someone else and sent to me as I was Lead Pilot on that one.

IMAG0240.jpg

IMAG0239.jpg

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On 07/05/2022 at 12:47, annv said:

By removing the disused metal rail bridge then jack up the road bridge (it only rests on the flood wall) would remove many of the problems at the yacht station along with a unsightly rusty mess. John

 

On 07/05/2022 at 23:57, oldgregg said:

As for the bridges, yes let’s lose that rusting pile of junk (or lift it out of the way) and consider raising the other bridge.

The only problem with your wishes is that the suspension bridges are grade 2 listed. They are of an 1850's build using earlier structural pieces. The preservation trust is trying to get funding for repairs on the second half of repairs and painting. So I cannot see your wishes coming true.

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I've seen no mention of anything like this so apologies if I missed it.

For my 65th birthday in January my kids arranged a narrow boat day trip from Market Harborough. In preparation the nominated Captain (me) is asked to complete an online instructional course which includes a series of short Youtube videos and ends with a multiple choice test. The score is for fun but is still an indicator. You are requested to complete the course at least 24 hours before boarding.

On the day, life jackets were issued and the normal details were related, then I was shown the controls and asked to perform a couple of turns and a bit of reversing. The instructor then rode with us for a short time and made me stop so he could step off and walk back.

Here is a link to one of the videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GuAU14OFxA&list=PLRh-5eosPL0JFrrKHsL_WzBEoQ1DrzMY1&index=2

You can find the other videos if you know how to navigate to Sharon's page. They've done a similar course for holiday cruises.

Thank's to lessons learned here, I cleared the helm as we stopped for the swing bridges or to moor, and when the Grandchildren got a bit lively once, I related the unfortunate accident involving a young footballer, as they all play.

BTW: we all had a great day. You only have two swing bridges to deal with on your way to Foxton Locks, where there are two pubs serving food and one serving Adnams beer. Form an orderley queue here. You are at the bottom of the locks and not allowed to take the boat up; you wouldn't have time anyway. I've booked again for a day in August.

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These ships just keep getting bigger and bigger. They actually look like and accident waiting to happen to me, God forbid. I live on the Thames Estuary and often walk round Tilbury Fort. Surprisingly a nice place to visit considering what Tilbury is like lol...since the opening of the new docks there's been a noticeable difference in the size of the ship coming up the Thames. The new cruise ships scare me the most there like floating towns. Wouldn't catch me getting on one..

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The view from the cafe at languard point is interesting when the 400m monsters swing in front of you, good fort there to visit too, you can get the foot ferry over from shotley and back via harwich for a few beers on the way.

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17 hours ago, Cheesey69 said:

Duel helm lock outs with no fail areas.

Just going back on topic for a moment . . .  :default_smiley-angelic002:

I have been used to dual controls on hire boats here for many years now and sort of take them for granted.  We don't have any major "issues" with them but then again, they don't need the neutral acceleration feature for starting and they don't need to charge batteries on moorings as they have the engine running all day, even when in locks.

Perhaps on the Broads we are not so used to them, and their type of use is different.

I am wondering whether dual station boats could be fitted with a separate hand throttle (like a tractor) for use when starting, or when wanting a steady speed in neutral for charging.  This could be interlocked, so that the gears cannot be engaged on the main controls unless the hand throttle is closed.  Equally, the hand throttle could not be opened when a gear is engaged.

In this way, the "pull out for neutral" feature on the Morse control could be disabled and could no longer cause any confusion or danger of being operated by mistake.

You would still have to effect a manual change-over between stations, but then, surely, the station in use must still be the one with the helmsman sitting at it?  You can't have the boat being driven by two people at the same time, from separate positions.

Knowing what I do about Morse controls, I don't think a hand throttle feature would be difficult to design.

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