The Lost Kuala Lumpur Flight

[Wonderwall]

Been watching a programme about the lost flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing in 2014. It has always fascinated me , and is on Channel 5 , so watch it on catch up if interested. 
So many unanswered questions on it , but what I thought someone on here may be able to inform me is, when the plane changed course, nobody could contact them , and at first nobody seemed to be too concerned about this !!  I find it surprising that pilots are not in contact with air traffic control at all times. Surely in this age of satellite phones constant contact isn’t a problem?

Hopefully some others are watching it , because there are so many questions!

[RS2021]

I suspect its because there are always so many aircraft in the air at any one time its practically impossible to be in contact with them all. If you remember 9/11 when the US/ Canada grounded all civilian aircraft they struggled to find the space to park them all!

[FlyingFortress]

Simply radio range.

There are many areas of the world where planes are out of ground contact.

Yes you can physically make a phone call but that is not something that is constant communication.

 

[Wonderwall]

12 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

Simply radio range.

There are many areas of the world where planes are out of ground contact.

Yes you can physically make a phone call but that is not something that is constant communication.

 

I don’t know how much you know about this disaster? But the plane changed course 180^  and apparently stayed on this course for hours ( over land I believe) Surely the military of the  country would want to investigate what was going here? Or am I just being naïve?

[FlyingFortress]

Would have to refresh myself with the case and I will watch the C5 program.

IIRC there is a suspicion that the radios were deliberately disabled. Or certainly not responded to.

It is an intriguing case.

I will watch and maybe get back to you.

I am basing my knowledge on many hundreds of hours as an aircraft pilot plus a commercial qualification. But a deeper knowledge of worldwide communications with ships.

[FlyingFortress]

I hasten to add that being out of aviation for a long time now I have no insider knowledge.

When I was involved there was always some insider knowledge that sometimes did not make it into the public domain.

[Wonderwall]

31 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

I hasten to add that being out of aviation for a long time now I have no insider knowledge.

When I was involved there was always some insider knowledge that sometimes did not make it into the public domain.

Thanks for the replies, and a lucky find on my behalf . I am very intrigued by it , but there is so much of the industry and it’s workings I have no idea about.

I hope you do catch up on it, would love to hear your take on all . 👍

[SwanR]

I’m watching this one as well. Have yet to catch up on the second episode. It is intriguing. It’s very hard to accept situations where we may simply never know what really happened. If you had loved ones on that plane those initial hours and days must have been agonising. 

[Wonderwall]

I only caught about 5 mins of this tonight ( was watching Scotland do the honourable thing and hand Ukraine the game 🤪) but the little I did see seemed to be in no doubt , the pilot intentionally caused the disaster. I will catch it all tomorrow.

Did anyone watch it? I still don’t understand how a rogue plane can fly over populated land , without being “ a point of concern”. 

[BroadAmbition]

‘Did the honourable thing’

They are well practiced in this 

Griff

[SwanR]

I have watched it all. Probably because I am fascinated by events such as this with no known cause or conclusive outcome. Where this series was different to others was the inclusion and focus on relatives of the crew and passengers. Really made me think about the range of emotions and the passing of time for them with the plane never found. Mysterious and strange to just not know what happened. And to not be able to put your loved ones to rest. Never mind the legal complexities of whether you can register a death, claim from insurance etc., and move on with your life if that was your partner. 

[andyg]

Sadly I doubt we will ever get the truth about this tragic event. Personally I believe it was a deliberate act by one of the pilots onboard that caused the plane to crash/ disappear. It must be so painful for thoses left behind, a lifetime of wondering what happened and never knowing where the loved ones final resting place actually is. Heartbreaking. 

[twowrights]

12 hours ago, BroadAmbition said:

‘Did the honourable thing’

They are well practiced in this 

Griff

Scotland should be applauded for their recent brave stand against tyranny.

This time, brave Scotland have ceded their place in the finals to Ukraine (if they beat Wales) because of the war there - oh yeah, there's the Qatar boycott as well.
In 2018, in protest at Russian aggression against Ukraine, they boycotted the finals there.
In 2014, in protest at deforestation of the Amazon, they boycotted the finals in Brazil.
In 2010, uncomfortable with continued inequality in South Africa, those finals were boycotted.
In 2006, still angry about them bombing Shugie's Gran's chippy in Clydebank, they boycotted the finals in Germany.
In 2002, as part of a campaign for a peaceful resolution of the Dokdo Islands dispute, they boycotted the finals in Japan and Korea.

I know that there is widespread disapproval in Scotland of the unfair USMCA deal that replaced NAFTA. If this is not addressed in the next four years, they will boycott the US-Canada-Mexico finals in 2026.

I hope a decent country can host the 2030 World Cup so Scotland can attend. But let's applaud their strong moral stance over the last 20 years.

 

 

[FlyingFortress]

Well I did watch this tonight and it did not change my initial thoughts on it.I hasten to add that being out of aviation for a long time now I have no insider knowledge.

When I was involved there was always some insider knowledge that sometimes did not make it into the public domain.

[FlyingFortress]

Well I did watch this tonight and it has not changed anything about my initial thoughts on it tragic as they may be.

Some clarification.

When the aircraft changed from Malaysia ATC to Vietnam ATC they would have been monitoring secondary radar. Secondary radar is computer overlaid with information such as vector, height, speed and more importantly flight identity.

When the military radar picked up the flight they would be operating on primary radar which is just blips on a screen. They do not go beep BTW. 

Why they did not scramble military aircraft to intercept an Intruder I don't know.

The track of MH 370 was detected by some brilliant analysis of data by a British firm INMARSAT who tracked the data being exchanged by the RR engines with RR head office and made some incredible mathematical calculations as to where the engines actually we're.

Big brother or what?

So in the end .

If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, chances are.....

[FlyingFortress]

The oceans are big.

Look at AF 477 and the time it took to find that cause. And how incredibly lucky they were to find the FDR

[HEM]

18 hours ago, FlyingFortress said:

Look at AF 477 and the time it took to find that cause. And how incredibly lucky they were to find the FDR

...and cockpit voice recorder (it was AF 447).

A previous member of my flying club is an accident investigator with the BFU (German air accident investigation folks).
My club has run a number of Summer Camps (to be repeated this year) near to Braunschweig (BFU headquarters) and on bad-weather days we have visited the BFU & had a talk either by our ex-member or one of his colleagues.

The various national accident investigation teams cooperate closely & in the case of AF 447 numerous countries were involved under French leadership - including the Brits, the Germans & the Russians.  Our ex-member was part of the search team "you are from Hamburg area - you are seaworthy".  Thus eventually our man was on a ship using sonar to search.  His expedition did not find it - the following one did.

He then briefed us what went on on the flight deck.

[FlyingFortress]

38 minutes ago, HEM said:

...and cockpit voice recorder (it was AF 447).

A previous member of my flying club is an accident investigator with the BFU (German air accident investigation folks).
My club has run a number of Summer Camps (to be repeated this year) near to Braunschweig (BFU headquarters) and on bad-weather days we have visited the BFU & had a talk either by our ex-member or one of his colleagues.

The various national accident investigation teams cooperate closely & in the case of AF 447 numerous countries were involved under French leadership - including the Brits, the Germans & the Russians.  Our ex-member was part of the search team "you are from Hamburg area - you are seaworthy".  Thus eventually our man was on a ship using sonar to search.  His expedition did not find it - the following one did.

He then briefed us what went on on the flight deck.

Blooming horrendous wasn't it.

[Wonderwall]

As well as my utter amazement that a plane can fly over a populated area for a considerable time without being challenged, is, 

If planes are out of.touch with air traffic control, and they change height\ course to avoid say bad weather, who knows what height, where they are in the sky? Surely this adds to a Collison opportunity?

[HEM]

23 hours ago, Wonderwall said:

Surely this adds to a Collison opportunity?

Yes - but there is something called TCAS.

[FlyingFortress]

Also outside of busy areas around busy airports it is rare to see another aircraft.

Mid air collisions are remarkably rare thankfully. It's a big sky.

[FlyingFortress]

14 hours ago, HEM said:

Yes - but there is something called TCAS.

In the case of collision avoidance aviation lagged well behind shipping. I was very surprised to learn that until the introduction of TCAS there was no system on aircraft to facilitate collision avoidance. Radar was and very much still is primarily a weather avoidance tool for aircraft, whereas for shipping it is a collision avoidance and navigation tool and has been since it's introduction. Automated plotting has been around since I started going to sea in the late 70's.

Aircraft can of course fly at different heights and outside of controlled airspace there are protocols to minimise having aircraft at the same height.

[FairTmiddlin]

3 hours ago, FlyingFortress said:

In the case of collision avoidance aviation lagged well behind shipping. I was very surprised to learn that until the introduction of TCAS there was no system on aircraft to facilitate collision avoidance. Radar was and very much still is primarily a weather avoidance tool for aircraft, whereas for shipping it is a collision avoidance and navigation tool and has been since it's introduction. Automated plotting has been around since I started going to sea in the late 70's.

Aircraft can of course fly at different heights and outside of controlled airspace there are protocols to minimise having aircraft at the same height.

Living 600yds from the English Channel, being a Radio Ham we tend to use APRS.fi which not only shows radio hams but shipping too. 

Most days it's a carbon copy of the M25 at rush hour with the added jeopardy of an A road (ferries) going 90 degrees to it.

Last time there was a collision in the Channel with loss of life was 2013.