Breydon

[Meantime]

Just now, grendel said:

which is also quite likely the very reason this is being done again this time.

Exactly what I was hinting at. I don't know EMS's relationship to the BHF, but I do know the owners are related to John Cressey and I suspect have taken over his dealings with the BHF on a similar basis, which would leave the question why are the BA neglecting to cover their own commitments? 

Perhaps the coastguard and inshore lifeboat need to have a whip around for the BA to fund a few extra posts to prevent so many call outs. That was tongue in cheek, but perhaps if the BA are neglecting their responsibilities to providing clear signage there might be a case for the BA to cover some of the rescue costs.

[grendel]

which was what I was hinting about in an earlier post, when i said that without the necessary maintenance the person running aground had a valid explanation for their mistake.

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, grendel said:

without the necessary maintenance the person running aground had a valid explanation for their mistake.

Mistake?

In the pitch dark?

[Meantime]

16 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Mistake?

In the pitch dark?

It is reported they ran aground at 10pm, now I know that is after dusk, But, I was in Oulton Broad a week ago and it was still very light at 10pm, more like 10:20 before you could say it was dark. I doubt light levels was their issue even if they should not have been there.

[Chelsea14Ian]

In good light the markers are easy to see.We often cross the bridge  when shopping, Hospital  etc.Yes they need to be replaced ASAP. However if as reported they were there at 10.00pm,clearly  wrong and from photos they were not just past the markers,they were way over to the right .

[grendel]

2 hours ago, Vaughan said:

Mistake?

In the pitch dark?

I did not say I was quoting any specific incident, the comment was a generalisation.

[Vaughan]

10 hours ago, Meantime said:

more like 10:20 before you could say it was dark. I doubt light levels was their issue even if they should not have been there.

So if they set out at that time of night, where could they have expected to be once they got to the other end of Breydon - if they got there?

In the pitch dark.

[andyg]

So am I right in saying the boat was attempting a crossing at 10pm !! If this is the case then this is a completely pointless debate in my opinion!! The only people at fault here are the hirers, it's as simple as that. Back in May my wife navigated the bridge's and  breydon in poor weather, boat height was 6ft 8 bridge height was showing 6ft 10, Her very first time. Its utter nonsense to keep blaming missing posts the BA etc etc, it's about taking personal responsibility for the safety of your boat and crew. Boats have run aground crossing Breydon since I can remember and will continue to, it just happens it really is as simple as that. The idiots shouldn't of been where they were when the were. Ppl need to stop trying to defend them. 

[Meantime]

3 hours ago, Vaughan said:

So if they set out at that time of night, where could they have expected to be once they got to the other end of Breydon - if they got there?

In the pitch dark.

I'm merely pointing out that your previous comment made it sound like they ran aground in the pitch dark. At 10pm it would not have been anywhere near being pitch dark, therefore that was not the cause of them finding themselves outside of the channel. I agree as a hire boat it was after dusk and they should not have been cruising, but many do ignore the rules and at this time of year there is a good 60 mins between dusk and total darkness.

[Smoggy]

The time between sunset and darkness is actually less at this time of the year due to the angle the sun drops below the horizon. 

In winter it's a much shallower angle so twilight lasts longer.

[Vaughan]

8 minutes ago, Meantime said:

at this time of year there is a good 60 mins between dusk and total darkness.

And how long does it take to get over Breydon? Against a falling high tide?

They set  out on a deliberate night passage.  Just happens they crashed out sooner rather than later but the result was surely inevitable.

[Meantime]

19 minutes ago, andyg said:

So am I right in saying the boat was attempting a crossing at 10pm !! If this is the case then this is a completely pointless debate in my opinion!! The only people at fault here are the hirers, it's as simple as that. Back in May my wife navigated the bridge's and  breydon in poor weather, boat height was 6ft 8 bridge height was showing 6ft 10, Her very first time. Its utter nonsense to keep blaming missing posts the BA etc etc, it's about taking personal responsibility for the safety of your boat and crew. Boats have run aground crossing Breydon since I can remember and will continue to, it just happens it really is as simple as that. The idiots shouldn't of been where they were when the were. Ppl need to stop trying to defend them. 

It is not a pointless debate and at no time have I tried to defend the hirers. There would still have been good light when they run aground, even if they should not have been cruising after dark. The missing post there is confusing and does need to be replaced. John Cressey put signs on those posts for VERY good reasons and they reduced the amount of call outs dramatically. I know because I spoke to him a few times in The Berney Arms. He used to be a regular at The Berney due to locating one of his rescue tugs there in the Summer due to the amount of call outs on Breydon. I believe it is his nephew who owns EMS and has again put signs back on the posts just recently. John's original signs were so successful that the BA eventually replaced them with their own and then failed to maintain them.

It's not just hirers that use Breydon. I've made a few night time crossings and also gone across around dusk when the mist suddenly descends and at that point you rely on the posts. I say posts because they stand out against the horizon far better than buoys.

[Meantime]

1 minute ago, Vaughan said:

And how long does it take to get over Breydon? Against a falling high tide?

They set out out on a deliberate night passage.  Just happens they crashed out sooner rather than later but the result was surely inevitable.

I don't know if you are deliberately trying to miss the point, but I have already stated a few times that they should not have been there and I have no idea where they were heading. It was after dusk so the destination is irrelevant, but at the point they grounded it was NOT pitch dark.

[Vaughan]

9 minutes ago, Meantime said:

but at the point they grounded it was NOT pitch dark.

So that makes them 65% idiotic instead of 100%, does it?

I have a feeling your "point" is to have a good argument. I think I have said all I wish to say, on this.

 

[Smoggy]

19 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

And how long does it take to get over Breydon? Against a falling high tide?

12 minutes breydon bridge to berney moorings when there's no hire boats in the way spoiling my fun...

[Meantime]

1 minute ago, Vaughan said:

So that makes them 65% idiotic instead of 100%, does it?

I have a feeling your "point" is to have a good argument. I think I have said all I wish to say, on this.

 

No my point is that if the posts had been in place and proper signage then they might not have gone aground there. I fully agree there is a chance they may have run aground further across and I fully agree they should not have been there. 

The picture below borrowed from elsewhere and modified to disguise the identity of the boat is from an eye witness who took the picture as it passed Breydon Bridge. I think we can all agree the light levels should have been sufficient not to have run aground even if their final destination may have been Timbuktu with an arrival in the pitch dark!!!

[Mouldy]

I think that regardless of the negligence of the hirers who attempted a night crossing of Breydon, the BA seem to not be very proactive in identifying and rectifying issues that are affecting navigation and the enjoyment of The Broads by the boating community, who contribute heavily to their coffers annually.

I noticed the missing posts when we were on Moonlight Shadow at the beginning of May.  There are also (or were at the time) posts missing on the opposite side and further across Breydon.  All instructions relating to crossing Breydon refer to ‘navigate between the posts.’  If they’re missing or broken, they should be reinstated.  How difficult is it?

Whilst on Norfolk Lady last weekend, we noticed that a large section of the moorings at Cantley, by The Reedcutter, had been taped off as had about four separate sections of the moorings at Pyes Mill.  As we head into peak season, when holidaymakers will be out in force, closing off moorings where they are already in short supply, is hardly ideal.

Little wonder that a lot of noise was made at the loss of the ‘quiet’ moorings at Potter and others Barton Turf.  Not only does it appear that the BA do not want to invest in improvements to retain existing moorings, regardless of the length of lease, or who owns them, they also seem reticent to maintain the ones that are already in the care of the Broads Authority.

Maybe Tom would care to comment.

[andyg]

1 hour ago, Meantime said:

It is not a pointless debate and at no time have I tried to defend the hirers. There would still have been good light when they run aground, even if they should not have been cruising after dark. The missing post there is confusing and does need to be replaced. John Cressey put signs on those posts for VERY good reasons and they reduced the amount of call outs dramatically. I know because I spoke to him a few times in The Berney Arms. He used to be a regular at The Berney due to locating one of his rescue tugs there in the Summer due to the amount of call outs on Breydon. I believe it is his nephew who owns EMS and has again put signs back on the posts just recently. John's original signs were so successful that the BA eventually replaced them with their own and then failed to maintain them.

It's not just hirers that use Breydon. I've made a few night time crossings and also gone across around dusk when the mist suddenly descends and at that point you rely on the posts. I say posts because they stand out against the horizon far better than buoys.

No I'm afraid it really is pointless, just as it was last year and every year before that...so tell why boats ran aground when the missing post where in place, because they did...utter nonsense. It wouldn't matter one single jot how many post you have or how big the signage is. Mistakes happen and idiots will always be idiots...

[Chelsea14Ian]

Very true.

[Ray]

I imagine that given board members ages and experience that a number of us have been in involved in accidents of all kinds over the years.

It seems that that the ones suffered before social media were our bad luck and the ones since were because we were idiots lol

It is never pointless to try to mitigate against accidents!

[Andrewcook]

Why does BA do some  patrols at Low Tide as  to making sure theres No more Accidents as to Boats Running Ground on Breydon.

[marshman]

And if you cross, when advised, at low water , its actually impossible to run aground where they did and the channel is very very obvious.

Sunset is 21.17p.m. so good old fashioned lighting up time is 21.47 - a cloudy night would make it pretty dark most places on the Broads, except possibly Oulton!

[andyg]

18 minutes ago, Ray said:

I imagine that given board members ages and experience that a number of us have been in involved in accidents of all kinds over the years.

It seems that that the ones suffered before social media were our bad luck and the ones since were because we were idiots lol

It is never pointless to try to mitigate against accidents!

I'm not saying everyone's who runs aground is an idiot. But attempting to cross in the dark then yeah you are an idiot to my mind. 

[Meantime]

1 minute ago, marshman said:

a cloudy night would make it pretty dark most places on the Broads, except possibly Oulton!

A true statement putting to one side the sarcasm, but them luckily someone also took a photo. So it looks like Oulton and Breydon Bridge were not dark!!!!!!!

[Meantime]

1 minute ago, andyg said:

But attempting to cross in the dark then yeah you are an idiot to my mind.